Caylee opening the sliding glass door photo

[pipkins]

Originally Posted by LongtimeMedic

Anyone that doubts the capability of a 2 year old, especially if you are fixated on this case as we all seem to be, must watch this video. MOO

YouTube - ‪Four doors. One two-year-old. No contest!‬‏

That was an excellent comparison...even though they are 'opening doors' and I think the Anthonys had sliders which I have (the handle needs to be in a certain position to open...for life of me cant remember so I'll look later ...but my memory serves me correct that kids could open (with a bit of force when taller) I used to lock with a key

[panthera]

Originally Posted by Hot Dogs

In addition to the photo we have this...

Cindy said: Caylee was able to and did open that door on her own.

Cindy did not say: Caylee was incapable of opening that door on her own.

The photo and testimony sets the stage for a possible accidental drowning while Caylee was unattended.

The question in my mind still remains: Was Caylee actually able to unlock and open that door on her own or is this testimony contrived for the purpose of setting the stage for an accidental drowning? I still find it somewhat ironic that a photo exists of her at the door.

MOO

[Stargazer7]

Originally Posted by LongtimeMedic

Very true, there is absolutely nothing accidental about a cover-up, but the charge in this case is 1st Degree Murder, and that is the element that must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. A cover-up following an accident, is not a murder, if that's what happened. JMOO

Have fun... the tone seems to be changing in here. See y'all tomorrow!

An accidental pool drowning of a child in Florida does not require a cover-up. A cover up that consisted of being put into plastic bags, left decomposing in the trunk of a car still being driven, duct tape around the lower half of the face and finally left in the woods to rot. That's a pretty gruesome cover up for the "accidental" drowning of a two year old child. It defies all logic.

[LongtimeMedic]

Originally Posted by pipkins

That was an excellent comparison...even though they are 'opening doors' and I think the Anthonys had sliders which I have (the handle needs to be in a certain position to open...for life of me cant remember so I'll look later ...but my memory serves me correct that kids could open (with a bit of force when taller) I used to lock with a key

I tell everyone I know that they should install a simple cheap sliding latch at "the top" of any door that leads to a dangerous area. It should be at the highest point allowable to keep the little ones from reaching it... it also is one of the few ways you can prevent some sleep walkers from exiting their homes.

For all you parents (I'm one too) don't take a chance! Go to the nearest hardware store and spend $50 and actually child proof your home... it may be the best $50 you ever spend and you may never even know if or when it saved your child's life. MOO

[Hot Dogs]

Originally Posted by panthera

The question in my mind still remains: Was Caylee actually able to unlock and open that door on her own or is this testimony contrived for the purpose of setting the stage for an accidental drowning? I still find it somewhat ironic that a photo exists of her at the door.

MOO

We also did not hear something like this on cross examination:

Is it not true that your sliding glass doors have childproof locks, Mrs. Anthony?

[JBean]

Originally Posted by pipkins

That was an excellent comparison...even though they are 'opening doors' and I think the Anthonys had sliders which I have (the handle needs to be in a certain position to open...for life of me cant remember so I'll look later ...but my memory serves me correct that kids could open (with a bit of force when taller) I used to lock with a key

I think it was valuable just to demonstrate that people actually film their children opening doors.

[Wise Old Owl]

What I haven't seen asked (or answered) in regards to this glass sliding door. Having lived in the land of pools and glass sliding doors for my entire life, there is a must-have for these doors. All apartments and homes that I've lived in had them.

There is a "pin" in the top and bottom of the doors - where they meet in the middle. This pin runs through both frames and ends before the outside of the second frame (so it can't be pushed in from the outside). These pins make it impossible to open either door from either side - until the pins are pulled.

Why the Anthony's didn't have these pins or why it hasn't been approached at what security they did have on those doors is anyone's guess. Glass sliding doors are notorious for crooks to get in through and people here take that entry point seriously and do whatever it takes to make them secure.

Oh well, just a thought I've had since all this glass sliding door stuff came up.

[panthera]

Originally Posted by Wise Old Owl

What I haven't seen asked (or answered) in regards to this glass sliding door. Having lived in the land of pools and glass sliding doors for my entire life, there is a must-have for these doors. All apartments and homes that I've lived in had them.

There is a "pin" in the top and bottom of the doors - where they meet in the middle. This pin runs through both frames and ends before the outside of the second frame (so it can't be pushed in from the outside). These pins make it impossible to open either door from either side - until the pins are pulled.

Why the Anthony's didn't have these pins or why it hasn't been approached at what security they did have on those doors is anyone's guess. Glass sliding doors are notorious for crooks to get in through and people here take that entry point seriously and do whatever it takes to make them secure.

Oh well, just a thought I've had since all this glass sliding door stuff came up.

Good point! Whenever we're away from home for the day we put a bar in the inside door track as an additional security measure. I also recall there being another door that Caylee would have to go through to get to the pool; I believe GA testified to it. So even if she were able to get out the sliding glass door, what about the other one? Or are we to believe that while GA was home, he left both doors unsecured for Caylee to get out to the pool as well as leaving the ladder up?

MOO

[JBean]

Safety features are only as effective to the extent that they are used.I had them on all my doors leading to the pool, but invariably on a busy day when everyone was in and out of the doors, they were left off so people could get back and forth.

So, even if the doors were child proofed they are 100% ineffective if they are left unpinned or unlatched. By code we had to have alarms on the doors, but they were deactivated the minute the inspector left. They were loud and annoying every single time someone walked through the door to the pool.So needless to say they were pretty ineffective LOL. I had no small children at home so I was comfortable doing so.

[Wise Old Owl]

Originally Posted by panthera

Good point! Whenever we're away from home for the day we put a bar in the inside door track as an additional security measure. I also recall there being another door that Caylee would have to go through to get to the pool; I believe GA testified to it. So even if she were able to get out the sliding glass door, what about the other one? Or are we to believe that while GA was home, he left both doors unsecured for Caylee to get out to the pool as well as leaving the ladder up?

MOO

Plus, Ihave been led to believe (by JB's OS) that Caylee snuck out to the pool in the morning (possibly before GA and ICA were even up). But even if GA was up - doesn't mean he would pull the pin on the doors - unless he had to go out back for something.

In the mornings those pins (if they had them) would still be in from the night before.

I just find it odd that we haven't heard what security they had on those doors - if any at all.

[SindyBill]

I just dont think - whether this photo is Caylee or not - that it proves she is opening the door. The door could be slightly ajar and she is standing at the door wanting to go out. I don't think she was old enough or strong enough to do it on her own - unless they had extremely easy to open doors! My 4 year old - who is strong and bigger than average - still needs my assistance opening sliding glass doors. JMO.

[Hot Dogs]

Many sliding glass doors have a simple small lever at the handle area to lock/unlock. These kinds are no problem for a child to operate.

There is a faint black dot on the jamb next to the handle that Caylee is holding. That dot might be a hole for the locking mechanism.

[SindyBill]

As meticulously as Cindy kept her house clean (white couches and carpets with a toddler in the house) I think she was just as careful about every thing else - including and not limited to the security/safety of the house as far as Caylee was concerned. She didn't sneak out in the morning, it's all hogwash.JMO.

[Wise Old Owl]

Originally Posted by Hot Dogs

Many sliding glass doors have a simple small lever at the handle area to lock/unlock. These kinds are no problem for a child to operate.

There is a faint black dot on the jamb next to the handle that Caylee is holding. That dot might be a hole for the locking mechanism.

Nobody I know that has glass sliding doors relies on those "handle locks". They are easily broken - just one good hard yank. You definitely need alternate locks, pins, whatever.

As for Caylee being able to open them - I have doors that are so easily opened you can push them with one finger and others that even I had to put both hands and some shoulder into it to open them. It all depends on the tracks - if they are kept clean and even possibly "oiled" to run smoothly on the track.

That picture has absolutely no evidentary value. The door could have already been "cracked open" slightly and she was trying tp push it open further. Its obvious there was an adult there (took the picutre). So, to me, that picture proves nothing.

[Hot Dogs]

Originally Posted by SindyBill

As meticulously as Cindy kept her house clean (white couches and carpets with a toddler in the house) I think she was just as careful about every thing else - including and not limited to the security/safety of the house as far as Caylee was concerned. She didn't sneak out in the morning, it's all hogwash.JMO.

Then there was really no reason to ever detach the ladder from the pool? If Caylee cannot get out of the house on her own, why remove the ladder?

[Wise Old Owl]

Originally Posted by Hot Dogs

Then there was really no reason to ever detach the ladder from the pool? If Caylee cannot get out of the house on her own, why remove the ladder?

To keep anyone from coming in the backyard and getting into the pool. Kids here do it all the time - they call it "pool hopping". Now some of these kids are big enough to put the ladder up - but your homeowner's liability insurance is quite high when you have a pool anyway. You take every precaution you can - its a responsiblity you take on when you have a pool.

[Scamperoo]

Originally Posted by Hot Dogs

Then there was really no reason to ever detach the ladder from the pool? If Caylee cannot get out of the house on her own, why remove the ladder?

Logical fallacy aside...most of us take every precaution possible to keep our precious little ones safe, there was every reason to remove the ladder from the pool to make sure should one safety measure fail, another would be in place. Redundancy is key when keeping our children safe.

That logic is much like saying "why do you need 2 parachutes? if you packed the first one right you don't need the second".

[Hot Dogs]

Originally Posted by Wise Old Owl

To keep anyone from coming in the backyard and getting into the pool.

I thought the access gate to the backyard had a lock.

[panthera]

Originally Posted by Wise Old Owl

Nobody I know that has glass sliding doors relies on those "handle locks". They are easily broken - just one good hard yank. You definitely need alternate locks, pins, whatever.

As for Caylee being able to open them - I have doors that are so easily opened you can push them with one finger and others that even I had to put both hands and some shoulder into it to open them. It all depends on the tracks - if they are kept clean and even possibly "oiled" to run smoothly on the track.

That picture has absolutely no evidentary value. The door could have already been "cracked open" slightly and she was trying tp push it open further. Its obvious there was an adult there (took the picutre). So, to me, that picture proves nothing.

BBM

Absolutely agree! I have several photos of my cats by the open glass patio door, some even reaching up on the inside (probably to get a fly or something). Are those photos evidence the cats opened the door? It makes about as much sense to me. At least in my photos, I can tell which cats are by the door.....

MOO

[panthera]

Originally Posted by Hot Dogs

I thought the access gate to the backyard had a lock.

It should have. I believe CA testified the day she found the ladder up the gate was also open.

MOO

[Hot Dogs]

Originally Posted by Scamperoo

Logical fallacy aside... Redundancy is key when keeping our children safe.

That logic is much like saying "why do you need 2 parachutes? if you packed the first one right you don't need the second".

But maybe the most important reason the Anthonys had for detaching the ladder was because Caylee could get into the backyard on her own. We were told that they moved the outdoor storage box away from the pool because Caylee might climb on top of it and get into the pool. For a period of time that box was left next to the pool.

This is not an imagined fallacy and I am using logic. I'm connecting logical dots. At some point, the Anthonys may have known for a fact that Caylee could open that door on her own.

[Tennessean]

Originally Posted by Serjen

Someone posted the original taken from their computer screen in this very thread a couple pages back. People should watch the hearing before relying on pictures posted on the web. The original photo was kind of dark (since it was taken against the light) and then someone lightened it and others elongated it, and those are the pics being passed around. People are talking about the color being off or the dimensions being off...but again, It was not what was shown in court.
Not to be snarky, but I read through this entire thread and I am convinced many people do not actually read the posts, so many repeated comments are posted even after they've been explained.

Sorry.

[Scamperoo]

Originally Posted by Hot Dogs

But maybe the most important reason the Anthonys had for detaching the ladder was because Caylee could get into the backyard on her own. We were told that they moved the outdoor storage box away from the pool because Caylee might climb on top of it and get into the pool. For a period of time that box was left next to the pool.

This is not an imagined fallacy and I am using logic. I'm connecting logical dots. At some point, the Anthonys may have known for a fact that Caylee could open that door on her own.

What Cindy is saying she did is, Remove the ladder from the pool because Caylee could climb it (preemptive), moved the box when she saw the possibility Caylee may climb on it (preemptive), put the lock on the back gate in a position it was impossible for anyone but an adult to access (preemptive) and then failed to keep locks on the doors or otherwise secure the exits when quite clearly from the photograph they provided, she was interested in opening the doors. Failed.

I have no reason to believe following "the dots" would lead me to any conclusion other than, Cindy would never take all those precautions and then not bother to secure the doors.

[Hot Dogs]

Originally Posted by Scamperoo

What Cindy is saying she did is, Remove the ladder from the pool because Caylee could climb it (preemptive), moved the box when she saw the possibility Caylee may climb on it (preemptive), put the lock on the back gate in a position it was impossible for anyone but an adult to access (preemptive) and then failed to keep locks on the doors or otherwise secure the exits when quite clearly from the photograph they provided, she was interested in opening the doors. Failed.

I have no reason to believe following "the dots" would lead me to any conclusion other than, Cindy would never take all those precautions and then not bother to secure the doors.

So then assuming you are right, an accidental drowning would have required some kind of accident(s).

[Donjeta]

Originally Posted by Hot Dogs

Then there was really no reason to ever detach the ladder from the pool? If Caylee cannot get out of the house on her own, why remove the ladder?

Accidents can happen even if an adult opens the door, IMO.