CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #2

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The cake has always greatly bothered me. Audrey was known to love to cook and to collect recipes and per the first installment of the recent articles had a fancy convection oven. I realize that she was living mostly on convenience foods at the time of her death but most people who are cooks and who love a particular recipe, want to make it themselves. In fact, in many circles, it would be considered rude to deliver a gift that was someone else's specialty. Even though PK's wife is a pastry chef, I find it strange that they would arrange to deliver a cake made to Audrey's specifications (actually a recipe attributed to her former husband). I've mentioned before that I am the mother of a number of chefs and one pastry chef and something seems "off".

Where was it that we first read that Audrey had been quite the cook and gourmand?

That has made me wonder as well. Though I can see PK saying at some point that his wife is a great cook, and AG should try something....and finally it culminated in the cake. Or he may have asked AG what she wants for xmas, and she may have responded with something like, "I don't need anything...but wait...maybe it would be a good time to finally try some of your wife's cooking...I bet she'd do wonders with that cake recipe."

He said he was going to delivery it on the 25th, but AG put it off until the 30th. (Should be a phone call log or email that can confirm when they might have discussed those dates. The date was extended because she was not well....at least not well enough to see him until that date. We know she was out and about a bit).

I often think the murder happened around the time he was delivering the cake. If the body had been there for a while I doubt there'd be a need to go and check for a pulse (as the 911 operator asked pK to do). It would have been obvious and he would/should/could have said so. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
Hi Honourable Peeps ... out of touch due to computer issues, and only very limited access to a friend's laptop right now. Will be back soon as I can get fast and fancy new machine.

Snoopster .. thanks for keeping me in the loop. To conserve time here, my response is ITA

SB
 
They may have made the cake for her before and she loved it. We don't know. Maybe Audrey didn't bake anymore and was happy that PK's wife made it for her. I think we are reading too much into the cake. PK does not match the DNA the killer left or he would have been arrested. In one of the first articles about the murder LE says the killer was someone who Audrey did not know. For whatever reason they think the killer did not know her.
 
However, are we sure they have DNA? I thought there was only mention of "forensic evidence" which was used to to rule out DLS (at least it wasn't anything to convict him).
I think they have very little to go on, and that's why PK is still a person of interest and was brought back in for an LD test. Otherwise these folks would be completely ruled out.
 
Hey all, sorry for my long absence... I've missed you all lots. Thank you so much for keeping this thread alive. Let me preface this post by saying I wish more than anything in the world for LE to catch Audrey's murderer... for her dignity and for those of us who loved her. This post is going to be long... I'm sorry in advance but there is so much to say. I have had lots of contact with LE over the last weeks and I'm hoping to address some of the (apparent) inconsistencies highlighted in this thread and answer as many of the outstanding questions as I can without overstepping the bounds requested of me by LE. I'll break this up into 3 sections: questions about the scene, questions about the circumstances and general questions.

First then, questions about the scene. I realize the discrepancy between my description of the scene and Det. Hrab's. To be completely honest with you guys... I was really shocked as I started to get a sense of how gruesome LE perceived this crime to be. When I raised the door I saw Audrey lying on the floor and my eyes were immediately drawn to her face. I looked at the scene for only a fraction of a second before darting away. I saw hardened blood on the floor and that, along with the contortion of her body was what prompted me to call 911 and tell them she was dead. While I was on the phone with 911 the woman insisted that I go back and feel for a pulse. Even though I begged her not to make me and told her I was certain Audrey was dead, she didn't relent and I walked back. I bent over her to feel for a pulse (this was my only contact with her) and immediately left the scene again. Any details outside of her face were strictly seen in my periphery and are (thankfully) unclear in my mind. It didn't appear to me that her face was blue and as best I can remember, I believe she was wearing her sneakers but did not have her purse. I don't know exactly what DNA evidence LE collected… I know only that whatever they collected was distinct from myself and DS. Audrey did tell me when she gave me the code that I was the only person in the world to have it other than herself and she insisted that I not write it down anywhere and only commit it to memory. She gave it to me - she said - in case I ever needed to come while she was out and get tools out of the garage to work. I always found that a bit odd since I never, ever visited when she wasn't home but I never thought enough of it to ask her about it. I can't say with any certainty whether Audrey gave out her code to anyone (e.g. LV) after giving it to me but I can say that the code was not required to close the door and most of the time when Audrey was inside, the garage door would be closed.

Regarding the many questions about Audrey's car and the size of the garage… the garage was tiny by virtue of the fact that it was packed right tight with Audrey's things. I had her (giant) Camaro, all her gardening tools, including a lawn roller, riding lawn mower, shovels, wheelbarrow, etc etc and also her bench, generator, green bin, recycling box and a host of other tools and things. This meant that it was quite tight in the garage. Audrey always kept the car locked but I'm uncertain where her keys were (except that I think they were inside with the purse). I don't know even if the car had an alarm or if Audrey kept it armed but I'm not aware if it went off at any time.

Secondly about the circumstances surrounding Dec 25-30. The last contact I received from Audrey was that email on Monday. I can't speak to whether her car was driven or if she called to let her Wednesday group know she wasn't coming. I spoke to Audrey on December 25 just to check in on her and see how she was feeling and also to reschedule my coming over to Thursday morning. I called her on Thursday morning to let her know I was running a bit late with no response. I know the Amazing Grace email has surprised some people. I found this to be less of a surprise than the fact that I didn't receive any emails from the 28th-30th. It was typical for me to receive 2-3 per day and it wasn't unusual for some to carry religious significance though Audrey herself wasn't religious. As for myself, I spent the 26th-28th with my wife and the 29th at work. As for the questions regarding the cake, it was a bunt cake called "Texas Stoellen" from Time Magazine's series of books from foods around the world. If I think about it, I will post the recipe. There is a bit of a story to this: despite her incredibly diverse interests, Audrey was incredibly hard to buy gifts for (I found, anyways). So as early as the beginning of November, she told me she didn't want me to purchase anything for her for Christmas, but only to make this cake for her (because, as she often lamented, she was too lazy to make it herself). With respect to the comments about Audrey being a foodie and the surprise that she would let someone make food for her, I think this can be answered by understanding Audrey's approach to cooking/baking. She was a firm believer in scientific method and repeatability. Her recipes had painstaking detail and permitted no creativity whatsoever. In fact, she despised recipes that left room for the cook's personality. This is why she didn't have any problem asking Alex and I to make the cake for her because had "tried me out" before - asking me to make a spaghetti sauce that she loved to death - and she found that I could reliably follow the recipes she gave me. This hopefully also addresses my bringing the cake despite the fact that she was sick. Because it was such a long-planned thing, it didn't even register with me that she wouldn't be able to eat it until she was better.

Finally, for the bunch of general questions:
- I hope that I wasn't the one to mislead regarding the estate value. I have no idea whatsoever about any assets Audrey had outside her car and home. If I ever gave a figure around 500k, it was only referring to these two specifically
- I guess I goofed by saying we didn't talk about science… it escaped me that horticulture is science. 90% of our time was spent discussing plants and current events and whatever book Audrey was reading at the time
- Regarding the "stolen" mailbox part… there is a bigger story here. The comment in the paper was somewhat out of context. Audrey bought the mailbox a few days before I installed it. In her typical fashion, she had the man at the store unpack the entire product and pull all the parts out and describe each individually. It seems that in repacking the mailbox, he had forgotten a piece. When we found the piece was missing, we drove back to the store. Now, we could have gone to the desk and asked and they would have replaced the piece without question but Audrey insisted that we steal it. So we walked over to where the mailboxes were on the shelf, found the exact piece we needed sitting on the shelf alongside the other mailboxes in their packaging (obviously placed there by the employee after he realized he had forgotten to repack it) and that's when Audrey grabbed it and stuffed it into her coat and had me help her sneak out of the store. I shared that with Jon as a funny anecdote.. thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify and I hope I didn't offend anyone with the story.
- Regarding the polygraph, as of the time of the writing of the Spec article, the analysis of the results was not complete
- I hope that in saying that I didn't need a theory regarding the murder I didn't sound calloused. It is true that I come here because I appreciate the effort that everyone contributed to unearth the truth. My comment was taken somewhat out of context; I do very much wish to know the truth, but at the same time, I have chosen to continue with life and focus on all the wonderful times I spent with Audrey rather than her unfortunate death
- Audrey certainly would smoke in her home but she would usually put the door up if she was going to smoke in the garage
- And last of all… the blanks regarding what LE has asked me. Well, first of all, let me say that the polygraph was a somewhat exposing and unpleasant experience and there were many things asked there that I could discuss at more length if anyone has interest. Specifically with regards to my interviews by LE, they asked the questions detailed above regarding whether I had direct involvement in Audrey's death or whether I was present at the time of her death or was withholding any information about it but outside of that most of the questions have revolved around whether I could identify anything that seemed out of place with the property or garage when I arrived on the 30th. Oh, and they have asked me to recount 4 or 5 separate times every detail I can remember about what I did and where I was from the 25th to the morning of the 30th.

Wow this was longer than I expected. I do hope it was helpful. Thank you again everyone for your continued efforts… you are all a huge blessing to me.

PK
 
Welcome back, PK, and thank you very much for the new details. As you can see, when we don't have the full picture we just wallow around making all kind of guesses and assumptions.

That must have been quite an experience, having a polygraph. I'm pretty sure that I would be so nervous, that I'm not sure how they would tell I was innocent! :/

So did AG make any mention to you in her email as to how she was feeling on that Monday? Does it surprise you that she took the dogs to the vet when she was reportedly feeling so sick? Do you know how often she would go there?

The one thing that's really bugging me is the discrepancy between Audrey's recently reported comment that she was determined to go to her Wednesday coffee get-tegether, and an earlier report that implied that she emailed her group (prior to her email to LF, as that was her last communication) to say she wasn't going to come. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Thanks for the info! Much appreciated.
 
Hey all, sorry for my long absence... I've missed you all lots. Thank you so much for keeping this thread alive. Let me preface this post by saying I wish more than anything in the world for LE to catch Audrey's murderer... for her dignity and for those of us who loved her. This post is going to be long... I'm sorry in advance but there is so much to say. I have had lots of contact with LE over the last weeks and I'm hoping to address some of the (apparent) inconsistencies highlighted in this thread and answer as many of the outstanding questions as I can without overstepping the bounds requested of me by LE. I'll break this up into 3 sections: questions about the scene, questions about the circumstances and general questions.

First then, questions about the scene. I realize the discrepancy between my description of the scene and Det. Hrab's. To be completely honest with you guys... I was really shocked as I started to get a sense of how gruesome LE perceived this crime to be. When I raised the door I saw Audrey lying on the floor and my eyes were immediately drawn to her face. I looked at the scene for only a fraction of a second before darting away. I saw hardened blood on the floor and that, along with the contortion of her body was what prompted me to call 911 and tell them she was dead. While I was on the phone with 911 the woman insisted that I go back and feel for a pulse. Even though I begged her not to make me and told her I was certain Audrey was dead, she didn't relent and I walked back. I bent over her to feel for a pulse (this was my only contact with her) and immediately left the scene again. Any details outside of her face were strictly seen in my periphery and are (thankfully) unclear in my mind. It didn't appear to me that her face was blue and as best I can remember, I believe she was wearing her sneakers but did not have her purse. I don't know exactly what DNA evidence LE collected… I know only that whatever they collected was distinct from myself and DS. Audrey did tell me when she gave me the code that I was the only person in the world to have it other than herself and she insisted that I not write it down anywhere and only commit it to memory. She gave it to me - she said - in case I ever needed to come while she was out and get tools out of the garage to work. I always found that a bit odd since I never, ever visited when she wasn't home but I never thought enough of it to ask her about it. I can't say with any certainty whether Audrey gave out her code to anyone (e.g. LV) after giving it to me but I can say that the code was not required to close the door and most of the time when Audrey was inside, the garage door would be closed.

Regarding the many questions about Audrey's car and the size of the garage… the garage was tiny by virtue of the fact that it was packed right tight with Audrey's things. I had her (giant) Camaro, all her gardening tools, including a lawn roller, riding lawn mower, shovels, wheelbarrow, etc etc and also her bench, generator, green bin, recycling box and a host of other tools and things. This meant that it was quite tight in the garage. Audrey always kept the car locked but I'm uncertain where her keys were (except that I think they were inside with the purse). I don't know even if the car had an alarm or if Audrey kept it armed but I'm not aware if it went off at any time.

Secondly about the circumstances surrounding Dec 25-30. The last contact I received from Audrey was that email on Monday. I can't speak to whether her car was driven or if she called to let her Wednesday group know she wasn't coming. I spoke to Audrey on December 25 just to check in on her and see how she was feeling and also to reschedule my coming over to Thursday morning. I called her on Thursday morning to let her know I was running a bit late with no response. I know the Amazing Grace email has surprised some people. I found this to be less of a surprise than the fact that I didn't receive any emails from the 28th-30th. It was typical for me to receive 2-3 per day and it wasn't unusual for some to carry religious significance though Audrey herself wasn't religious. As for myself, I spent the 26th-28th with my wife and the 29th at work. As for the questions regarding the cake, it was a bunt cake called "Texas Stoellen" from Time Magazine's series of books from foods around the world. If I think about it, I will post the recipe. There is a bit of a story to this: despite her incredibly diverse interests, Audrey was incredibly hard to buy gifts for (I found, anyways). So as early as the beginning of November, she told me she didn't want me to purchase anything for her for Christmas, but only to make this cake for her (because, as she often lamented, she was too lazy to make it herself). With respect to the comments about Audrey being a foodie and the surprise that she would let someone make food for her, I think this can be answered by understanding Audrey's approach to cooking/baking. She was a firm believer in scientific method and repeatability. Her recipes had painstaking detail and permitted no creativity whatsoever. In fact, she despised recipes that left room for the cook's personality. This is why she didn't have any problem asking Alex and I to make the cake for her because had "tried me out" before - asking me to make a spaghetti sauce that she loved to death - and she found that I could reliably follow the recipes she gave me. This hopefully also addresses my bringing the cake despite the fact that she was sick. Because it was such a long-planned thing, it didn't even register with me that she wouldn't be able to eat it until she was better.

Finally, for the bunch of general questions:
- I hope that I wasn't the one to mislead regarding the estate value. I have no idea whatsoever about any assets Audrey had outside her car and home. If I ever gave a figure around 500k, it was only referring to these two specifically
- I guess I goofed by saying we didn't talk about science… it escaped me that horticulture is science. 90% of our time was spent discussing plants and current events and whatever book Audrey was reading at the time
- Regarding the "stolen" mailbox part… there is a bigger story here. The comment in the paper was somewhat out of context. Audrey bought the mailbox a few days before I installed it. In her typical fashion, she had the man at the store unpack the entire product and pull all the parts out and describe each individually. It seems that in repacking the mailbox, he had forgotten a piece. When we found the piece was missing, we drove back to the store. Now, we could have gone to the desk and asked and they would have replaced the piece without question but Audrey insisted that we steal it. So we walked over to where the mailboxes were on the shelf, found the exact piece we needed sitting on the shelf alongside the other mailboxes in their packaging (obviously placed there by the employee after he realized he had forgotten to repack it) and that's when Audrey grabbed it and stuffed it into her coat and had me help her sneak out of the store. I shared that with Jon as a funny anecdote.. thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify and I hope I didn't offend anyone with the story.
- Regarding the polygraph, as of the time of the writing of the Spec article, the analysis of the results was not complete
- I hope that in saying that I didn't need a theory regarding the murder I didn't sound calloused. It is true that I come here because I appreciate the effort that everyone contributed to unearth the truth. My comment was taken somewhat out of context; I do very much wish to know the truth, but at the same time, I have chosen to continue with life and focus on all the wonderful times I spent with Audrey rather than her unfortunate death
- Audrey certainly would smoke in her home but she would usually put the door up if she was going to smoke in the garage
- And last of all… the blanks regarding what LE has asked me. Well, first of all, let me say that the polygraph was a somewhat exposing and unpleasant experience and there were many things asked there that I could discuss at more length if anyone has interest. Specifically with regards to my interviews by LE, they asked the questions detailed above regarding whether I had direct involvement in Audrey's death or whether I was present at the time of her death or was withholding any information about it but outside of that most of the questions have revolved around whether I could identify anything that seemed out of place with the property or garage when I arrived on the 30th. Oh, and they have asked me to recount 4 or 5 separate times every detail I can remember about what I did and where I was from the 25th to the morning of the 30th.

Wow this was longer than I expected. I do hope it was helpful. Thank you again everyone for your continued efforts… you are all a huge blessing to me.

PK

Thank you kindly. Will be back later if I have comments and/or more questions.

ETA: I've only highlighted in this post because I tried earlier to highlight and to add questions, but the site cut me off because I was taking too long to post it all!! Questions will follow in next post.....
 
OK, now my questions to PK:

- was the blood you saw dried or frozen as best you could tell? (this might give LE a time of death)
- you say you spoke with Audrey on the phone - did she give her phone number to many people and was her number listed in the telephone directory?
- all Camaros are armed with a sophisticated alarm system - was Audrey's body near/touching the car? (the only way to disengage the security system on these cars is to have it done at the factory or to have a mechanic do it at the dealership) - so, given it's such a tight space in the garage, I'd imagine that the car's alarm would go off when the killer was there.
- LE can tell from the alarm system on the car an approximate time of death/attack
- don't polygraph tests jump up and down if one is untruthful? (I read many mysteries!) - did your polygraph remain steady or was it jumpy?
- what type of DNA did LE take from you? - (cheek swab, fingerprints, etc.)

I think that's all for now! Many thanks for sharing whatever you can at this site. I think I speak for all of us when I say that we desperately want Audrey's killer to be brought to justice. Thanks again......

ETA: One more question for now:

- do you have any idea if "young and close" people have been interviewed by LE - specifically, young people who would be home from University, College, etc. for the Christmas vacation?

Merci bien....
 
Also some Q's for PK (Many thanks for your previous replies!):

-Aside from a driver's remote control opener, how did the garage close without punching a code on the outside key pad? Did that have to be done via a button inside the garage, a special "close" button on the outside keypad, or could one just pull it down manually?

-Did AG have any kind of garage heater to keep it above freezing?

-Also, did the body/skin feel frozen when you took a pulse?

(For interest purposes, Lynden temps over that 2010 period:
-Dec 27th was -12C to -2.3C,
-Dec 28th was -6C to -3.3C,
-Dec 29th was -6.9C to -2.1C,
-Dec 30th was -8.7C to 4.3C.
Presumably it wouldn't have gone above, or much above 0C, until after the discovery).

Thanks!
 
Thanks for the temperatures, nicgumshoe. (We really are into solving this crime, aren't we??):clap:
 
Thanks PK!
I had a feeling that Ms Gleave would be the "don't waste your money on a gift for me" type and suggest you make a cake for her instead. When was the cake actually baked? You said you called her on the 25th to reschedule but what was the original day you were going to take it there?

One last question : any idea where the Camaro is now? Is LV driving it?

Thanks for putting up with us.
 
I'm interested in that part about PK having opportunity (as mentioned in the 4th part of the Spec story), and whether LE feel his moment of opportunity was near the time he called 911.

As mentioned in Part 4, earlier in the case Det. Hrab interviewed PK and ruled him out. I gather from this it was thought PK wouldn't have had opportunity to commit the crime. ie: in accordance with their perspective at that time, LE must not have found a large enough, unaccounted-for time gap where PK could have done it prior to discovery of the body.

So what has changed to have given PK opportunity? Why is he a person of interest again?

One thought is LE have now possibly established the time of death as somewhere near the time of discovery.

The "eyes wide open" part, keeps hitting me on the head. Supposedly ocular changes are one of the first indicators of death. Changes occur within minutes and corneal cloudiness (when eyes are open) occurs in 2 hours or less.

(some ocular info: http://www.arrakis.es/~jacoello/date.pdf)

Of course, temperatures from the 27th through some of the 30th were sub-zero...so that must have had an impact (if the garage also dropped to those temps). Still, prior to freezing (if that happened) there would surely have been some change.

Aside from that, I'm wondering what effect freezing temperatures would have had on the eyes. Would they have "iced over" in any way....or looked more cloudy or more discoloured due to winter dryness? (supposedly discoloration often happens fast in an arid climate.)


What I'm driving at is, (with the above in mind); if the eyes looked relatively normal, as if AG was looking back at PK, would that indicate that death occurred on the 30th, thereby giving PK that opportunity?

PK also said the skin didn't appear blue (or he didn't notice it as blue). I've read that skin goes orange-ish and later black on a frozen body...but am not sure how long it takes for that to occur.

Nonetheless, if he didn't notice any kind of abnormal pallor, then perhaps that also indicates death on the 30th. (But wouldn't considerable blood loss would lead to an abnormal skin colour pretty quick, assuming there was considerable blood loss?)

With death on the 30th a problem is, why no communication after the 27th?

Well, maybe there was and we haven't been filled in by LE. Or maybe she decided she really wasn't well, contacted the coffee group and decided to stay home for a few days to get better, and keep the world at bay (like in that Bruno Mars song, "Today I don't Feel Like Doing Anything").
 
And yet another question for PK (when you're sick of all this, please just say so!!):

- did you ever drive Audrey's Camaro - either to go shopping with her or to move the car when getting tools out of the garage so as to not scratch the car?
- did Audrey's car alarm ever go off in your presence - I mean, did you accidentally brush against the car in the garage while reaching for tools, etc.?
- or, did the car alarm ever go off if you and Audrey went out shopping together in the Camaro? (a simple speeding car passing the Camaro can set off the alarm system unless the system had been disengaged)
- did Audrey ever ask you to lower the sound on the Camaro's alarm? (I had to lower the volume on my 'Vette's alarm!)

Now, let's hope I'm finished with the questions for today!!:)
 
Thank you so much PK for taking the time to come and help us by answering our questions :) I have a few questions regarding:

garbage/recycling day:
  • Do you know which day of the week is the regular garbage day for that area?
  • How did Audrey manage to put the trash/recycling bins by the curb (main street)?
  • Or did you do that for her?
  • Would it be possible she was attacked while trying to take the bins out of the garage?
I'm asking this, because it doesn't seem she was going out or coming back from a car drive, if she had her car keys and purse inside the home. Unless...she was back from grocery shopping, and had gone inside the house to leave her purse and a shopping bag, and then came back to the garage to pick up some more bags. But in that case, there would be "movement" in her debit card, and shopping bags and receipt for LE to find, so I guess we can discard that possibility.

Also
:
  • Did she use to retrieve the empty recycling bins and trash cans from the curb by herself?
  • Did she walk daily by herself (no dogs) to pick up her mail from the mailbox at the curb?
  • I am assuming she didn't do any "raking leaves" or "snow shoveling" ... or did she?
Editing to add one more question:
  • PK, do you have any knowledge if Audrey had ever been approached by a developer or someone who was interested in buying her property?
 
One final question for all of us (not just PK this time!:)):

LE told PK that he had "opportunity" - but doesn't one also need "motive"?
 
Thanks for joining us here again, PK and congratulations on all your academic achievements -(AG, would have been proud of you, I'm sure).I think this was asked before, but by any chance did AG follow the tale of the missing( found drowned) man, Lachlan Cranswick from Deep River, or for that matter, missing student, Mariam Makhniashvili, or murdered nurse Sonia Varaschin, thread on Websleuths?
Also wondering about another question put forth by another poster a long time ago,did AG enjoy all sorts of music ie. was she a fan of rock music? I was thinking of a little vintage rock like David L.Roth of Van Halen...I figure it would sort of go along with the camaro and AG might have gotten a kick out of blasting it as she drives past "all the old ladies "!
 
I was thinking about how LE said one should watch out for discarded or stained size 10.11 workboots in the Sonia Varaschin case, or for anyone who had a change in behavior such as drinking more after SV's murder.
Well, I was wondering if in this case, certain behaviours after AG's death, might also be worth noting..For example,since the DNA retrieved from the crime scene did not match either A or P(or DS,for that matter)has anyone (from the area, or known to AG)) gone to extra lengths not to leave dna behind such as discarded cig. butts or coffee cup ect., items that might be collected covertly by LE for comparison purposes ?
 
dotr: I'm drawing a complete blank here - who is the A to whom you refer?

Thanks......
 
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