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  #26  
Old 04-26-2012, 01:25 PM
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mysteriew mysteriew is offline
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Under that reasoning though we are probably being unconstituional by not putting death row inmates to death immediately after conviction. Why some death row inmates have died of cancer. Very painful. Heart attacks and pneumonia have also taken death row inmates and those have varying degrees of illness and pain. And we allowed that.

Death is never easy, no matter how it is done. Even dying naturally usually has some pain and discomfort, even with pain meds. So there will always be some possibility that they will feel something. Even if it is only a pinprick of the needle being inserted.

The question is to what degree is it acceptable. I certainly agree that a poorly maintained electric chair that set the inmate on fire is inhumane. But a medication that puts the inmate to sleep while it is causing the body damage severe enough to terminate their lives? Is it really inhumane if they sleep through it?
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Why is it that when a custodial parent fails to provide for a child it is called neglect and is a criminal matter. But when a non custodial parent fails to provide it is called failure to support and is a civil matter?


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  #27  
Old 04-26-2012, 01:46 PM
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As usual I can't keep my fingers shut.
I think lethal injection is probably like going under in surgery, you don't feel anything. It's to bad his victims felt everything. IMO he was just a coward.
I really don't care about this man. There are people who wake up during surgery and feel pain and can't express it. Unfortunately, this happens! Because one injection works on one "patient" and not another is an issue of science, and not the constitution. Clearly not all inmates shake who are executed. This isn't the first time, and probably won't be the last.

Patients say it feels like being trapped in a corpse: They awake during surgery, unable to move or scream. Some remember hearing their surgeons talk, and a few recall feeling intense pain.

IMHO I think this sounds like a metabolic issue and not the prison trying to make sure this guy suffered.

MOO

Mel

Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23597612...uring-surgery/
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  #28  
Old 04-26-2012, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mysteriew View Post
Under that reasoning though we are probably being unconstituional by not putting death row inmates to death immediately after conviction. Why some death row inmates have died of cancer. Very painful. Heart attacks and pneumonia have also taken death row inmates and those have varying degrees of illness and pain. And we allowed that.

Death is never easy, no matter how it is done. Even dying naturally usually has some pain and discomfort, even with pain meds. So there will always be some possibility that they will feel something. Even if it is only a pinprick of the needle being inserted.

The question is to what degree is it acceptable. I certainly agree that a poorly maintained electric chair that set the inmate on fire is inhumane. But a medication that puts the inmate to sleep while it is causing the body damage severe enough to terminate their lives? Is it really inhumane if they sleep through it?
In the examples you cited of heart attacks or illness, that's not caused by the government. The government cannot inflict cruel and unusual punishment. Withholding treatment for illness would be cruel and unusual punushment, yes, but the inmate contracting said illness is not.

And the problem with lethal injection is that with some drugs or methods, the inmate is not simply going to sleep while death is being carried out. I strongly encourage you to read more about lethal injection and some of the issues there have been in its administration.
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  #29  
Old 04-26-2012, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AnaTeresa View Post
In the examples you cited of heart attacks or illness, that's not caused by the government. The government cannot inflict cruel and unusual punishment. Withholding treatment for illness would be cruel and unusual punushment, yes, but the inmate contracting said illness is not.

And the problem with lethal injection is that with some drugs or methods, the inmate is not simply going to sleep while death is being carried out. I strongly encourage you to read more about lethal injection and some of the issues there have been in its administration.
Why would we read more about it? I don't care if it's painful as long as it's lethal. I think most of us feel that way. Why so much compassion for the murderer while never once mentioning the victim? Why? Constitution - yea we got that.
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  #30  
Old 04-26-2012, 02:42 PM
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mysteriew mysteriew is offline
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Originally Posted by AnaTeresa View Post
In the examples you cited of heart attacks or illness, that's not caused by the government. The government cannot inflict cruel and unusual punishment. Withholding treatment for illness would be cruel and unusual punushment, yes, but the inmate contracting said illness is not.

And the problem with lethal injection is that with some drugs or methods, the inmate is not simply going to sleep while death is being carried out. I strongly encourage you to read more about lethal injection and some of the issues there have been in its administration.
I believe the American Heart association says a lack of exercise contributes to heart disease for some people. It is hard to get meaningful excercise in a cell. So should we not confine them?
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Why is it that when a custodial parent fails to provide for a child it is called neglect and is a criminal matter. But when a non custodial parent fails to provide it is called failure to support and is a civil matter?


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  #31  
Old 04-26-2012, 02:50 PM
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I really don't care about this man. There are people who wake up during surgery and feel pain and can't express it. Unfortunately, this happens! Because one injection works on one "patient" and not another is an issue of science, and not the constitution. Clearly not all inmates shake who are executed. This isn't the first time, and probably won't be the last.

Patients say it feels like being trapped in a corpse: They awake during surgery, unable to move or scream. Some remember hearing their surgeons talk, and a few recall feeling intense pain.

IMHO I think this sounds like a metabolic issue and not the prison trying to make sure this guy suffered.

MOO

Mel

Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23597612...uring-surgery/
I have heard of this as well. But I think it's rare. I've had many surgeries and it has never happen to me (thank everything that is good). However, I woke up during a colonoscopy once and is was quite uncomfortable.
IDK, I feel if you have the guts to torture, rape and murder another human being then you better be gutsy enough to face your own death.
I don't give a fig if he was shaking. He was a coward and probably was the first to cry mommy when he was caught. I watch a lot of Extended Stay on msmbc on Saturday's, and the majority of these prisoners are the biggest babies I've ever seen with their whinnig about everything. It makes me sick, what did they expect the Ritz. I mean come on.
No sympathy from me what-so-ever.

ETA: Last week on Extended Stay I think it was there was a guy who was getting released. He likes being in prison because he dosent have all the pressure that normal people have, ya know, paying rent etc. So he'll be back.
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Last edited by wonders; 04-26-2012 at 02:54 PM. Reason: To Add
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  #32  
Old 04-26-2012, 02:50 PM
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In the olden days they used to string them up from a tree, no worry about pain. Sounds good to me!
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  #33  
Old 04-26-2012, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by AnaTeresa View Post
In the examples you cited of heart attacks or illness, that's not caused by the government. The government cannot inflict cruel and unusual punishment. Withholding treatment for illness would be cruel and unusual punushment, yes, but the inmate contracting said illness is not.

And the problem with lethal injection is that with some drugs or methods, the inmate is not simply going to sleep while death is being carried out. I strongly encourage you to read more about lethal injection and some of the issues there have been in its administration.
Pain? Would you vote against abortion? How about partial birth abortion?
If someone violates another person's civil rights by murdering them, do they not forfeit their own rights? LI may cause a moments pain. A murderer causes his victim's family a lifetime of pain. You should read up on it.
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  #34  
Old 04-26-2012, 02:59 PM
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I believe the American Heart association says a lack of exercise contributes to heart disease for some people. It is hard to get meaningful excercise in a cell. So should we not confine them?
BBM
Oh not at all. You wouldn't believe what these people come up with in their cells to exercise. And let me tell you they are buff.
I encourage all of you to watch Extended Stay on Saturday night's, It will open your eyes to a lot of things that go on in prison.
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  #35  
Old 04-26-2012, 03:29 PM
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These threads always demonstrate why the death penalty is barbarous: not just because it is cruel to its victims, but because it brings out the absolute worst in almost everyone else.
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  #36  
Old 04-26-2012, 04:15 PM
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These threads always demonstrate why the death penalty is barbarous: not just because it is cruel to its victims, but because it brings out the absolute worst in almost everyone else.
Seriously. Lynchings? I don't know about anyone else but that's not an era that I want to return to.

Off topic: I'm not sure where you've been, Nova, but it sure is nice to have you back!
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  #37  
Old 04-26-2012, 05:17 PM
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I really don't care about this man. There are people who wake up during surgery and feel pain and can't express it. Unfortunately, this happens! Because one injection works on one "patient" and not another is an issue of science, and not the constitution. Clearly not all inmates shake who are executed. This isn't the first time, and probably won't be the last.

Patients say it feels like being trapped in a corpse: They awake during surgery, unable to move or scream. Some remember hearing their surgeons talk, and a few recall feeling intense pain.

IMHO I think this sounds like a metabolic issue and not the prison trying to make sure this guy suffered.

MOO

Mel

Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23597612...uring-surgery/
Wow, the waking up during surgery happened to me. The paralyzing drug worked but the one to put me under and to keep me from feeling pain didnt. I was feeling every cut of the knife into my back and could not talk, move or tell them. Luckily the anesthesiologist saw my vital signs were going crazy and quickly gave me a huge dose to put me under again. Come to find out, redheads require MORE anesthesia, usually at least 25% more than others, Weird but true.

But as for the executed criminal who was "shaking". Heck he could have been laughing for all we know. I know I shake the bed when I am looking at funny stuff on the internet and trying not to wake up Mr. Swamp with my giggling.

What he experienced was nothing more than any person getting an IV does. I still have zero sympathy for him.

He could have been shaking with anger that he was getting what he deserved and could not hurt anyone anymore.
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Cyrus C. convicted of 2004 arson in Harvey, La. that killed 4 people, including his 19-month-old daughter, his teenage girlfriend, the girlfriend's mom and GF's young brother (age 11). He was acquitted in 2008 (state charges) in 2008 and found GUILTY (federal charges) in 2013

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/...d_of_2004.html

Last edited by SwampMama; 04-26-2012 at 06:13 PM. Reason: typo
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  #38  
Old 04-26-2012, 06:19 PM
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In the examples you cited of heart attacks or illness, that's not caused by the government. The government cannot inflict cruel and unusual punishment. Withholding treatment for illness would be cruel and unusual punushment, yes, but the inmate contracting said illness is not.

And the problem with lethal injection is that with some drugs or methods, the inmate is not simply going to sleep while death is being carried out. I strongly encourage you to read more about lethal injection and some of the issues there have been in its administration.
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These threads always demonstrate why the death penalty is barbarous: not just because it is cruel to its victims, but because it brings out the absolute worst in almost everyone else.
I agree with you both but I understand how incredibly difficult it is for many people to look at the issue objectively. Even though I'm theoretically against the death penalty, everyday I read about people who I think the firing squad is too good for.

I watched a show ... I forget the name ... where a man was a prison guard (supervisor or something) and his job was to walk the prisoners through their final day, right up to strapping them to the table where they would die. He ended up retiring early with (I think) PTSD and/or other emotional issues. It took its toll, naturally.

Like someone else said, I don't want to go back to the 'town square hanging' days but the human race hasn't really evolved beyond that if we still have state-sanctioned murder.

I struggle with this internal debate constantly so I 'get' both sides because I'm conflicted.
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  #39  
Old 04-26-2012, 07:29 PM
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Seriously. Lynchings? I don't know about anyone else but that's not an era that I want to return to.

Off topic: I'm not sure where you've been, Nova, but it sure is nice to have you back!
Thank you, Moxie, but I haven't been gone. WS is so big nowadays, it seems quite possible to spend considerable time here and never run into old friends.

Thanks for asking about me and, yes, please, let's don't go back to lynchings!
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:33 PM
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I agree with you both but I understand how incredibly difficult it is for many people to look at the issue objectively. Even though I'm theoretically against the death penalty, everyday I read about people who I think the firing squad is too good for....
You'll get no argument from me, LadyL. I oppose the d.p. because of what it does to us as a society and because it has become patently obvious that we execute innocent people all too often.

It's not that I don't know how horrible some people can be. I've spent too much time here at WS to be naive about that! LOL.
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  #41  
Old 04-26-2012, 09:28 PM
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Again, I don't know how many times I have to say this but it is not about THIS particular defendant. I'm with the lawyer in being concerned that the method used in executions in that state may be unconstitutional and that further inquiry should be made about the drugs being used and who is administering them. This is a bigger issue than this one man. Far, far bigger.
I get what you're saying, however, according to the article, this man shook 'for several seconds' and in the last 9 executions witnessed by the AP in AZ, no other inmates shook.

This, IMO, is not enough to make any kind of fuss about or be a reason to discontinue using this method. The 'several seconds' of shaking could be unrelated to the lethal injection. I understand the constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, but I've noticed there are a lot of things in the constitution that aren't being followed, and I for one am not willing to make this be the one I crusade about.
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:07 PM
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I get what you're saying, however, according to the article, this man shook 'for several seconds' and in the last 9 executions witnessed by the AP in AZ, no other inmates shook.

This, IMO, is not enough to make any kind of fuss about or be a reason to discontinue using this method. The 'several seconds' of shaking could be unrelated to the lethal injection. I understand the constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, but I've noticed there are a lot of things in the constitution that aren't being followed, and I for one am not willing to make this be the one I crusade about.
What jumped out at me was that this state uses the one drug combo, rather than three - and it's phenobarbital, rather than sodium thiopental (although I know there are supply issues with that drug manufacturer). Phenobarbital can cause seizures, whereas sodium thiopental does not seem to. Although there are issues with sodium thiopental wearing off too quickly, because administration of the dose is not done by medical professionals with dosages tailored specifically. Just because no other inmates physically shook does not mean that it's issue-free.

For me personally, the only way I could feel comfortable with the death penalty is if it were administered in such a way that it isn't cruel and unusual punishment - and if we have eliminated innocent persons from being convicted. I cannot imagine anything more horrifying than an innocent person being put to death, and that death being tortuous. It's all about Blackstone for me - better than ten guilty go free than one innocent man condemned.
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  #43  
Old 04-27-2012, 05:59 PM
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I seriously doubt it will ever be possible to guarantee that no innocent people are executed. Which is why an irreparable punishment is not appropriate to any endeavor involving human beings.

As for the lawyer's complaint, (a) that's his job, and (b) a lawyer who has been with a client through all the disappointments of a failed appeal process and then the actual execution, can't help but feel a personal connection. Maybe he overreacted to what he saw, but can we really blame him? And isn't it a good thing that somebody is around to raise the question? Asking the question doesn't mean (unfortunately, in my eyes) that the method of execution will be abolished.
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:01 PM
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What I found most interesting about the article was the brief mention that most d.p. inmates decline the mild sedative they are offered before execution. I wonder why?

(As I learned from an angioplasty a couple of years ago: whenever they offer you a sedative, take it!)
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  #45  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:49 AM
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maybe he was shaking because he saw where he was going.
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  #46  
Old 04-29-2012, 07:02 AM
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What I will never understand is how people can be against the death penalty but for the murder of an innocent child in the womb.

Victims and/or victims families deserve the right to have a say in if the person should get the death penalty or life in prison. And in what way the death penalty should be carried out. Anyone who hurts a child should receive an automatic death sentence no matter what though and it should be carried out swiftly.
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  #47  
Old 04-29-2012, 09:58 AM
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These threads always demonstrate why the death penalty is barbarous: not just because it is cruel to its victims, but because it brings out the absolute worst in almost everyone else.
He was a murdering monster NOT a victim. And yet we're cruel to want justice? We are losing the fight against criminals everyday because we are to soft on crime. Some people care more about the rights of the criminals, than our rights. Its sad and bothersome to me that you see him as the victim. Imoo
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Old 04-29-2012, 04:01 PM
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He was a murdering monster NOT a victim. And yet we're cruel to want justice? We are losing the fight against criminals everyday because we are to soft on crime. Some people care more about the rights of the criminals, than our rights. Its sad and bothersome to me that you see him as the victim. Imoo
I don't see him as the "victim" in the original crime, obviously. But he is the victim of the more recent crime, that which occurred when we killed him.

We are NOT soft on crime and we are NOT losing any fight. We have the highest rates of incarceration and execution in the free world. Meanwhile our crime rates have been falling for over 30 years. (There may be a link there and I am not opposed to long sentences, including LWOP, for murderers.)

Let's stop scaring ourselves into killing people, even bad people. It isn't necessary and it isn't right.
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Old 04-29-2012, 04:05 PM
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What I will never understand is how people can be against the death penalty but for the murder of an innocent child in the womb.
Largely because we don't believe a single, fertilized cell is a "child" or "baby" just because you use the word.

Quote:
Victims and/or victims families deserve the right to have a say in if the person should get the death penalty or life in prison. And in what way the death penalty should be carried out.
And why should that be on their heads and their consciences? Haven't they suffered enough? A murder is a crime against the state and should be punished by the state. Murdering to punish murder not only sends a mixed message, it is just plain wrong.

Quote:
Anyone who hurts a child should receive an automatic death sentence no matter what though and it should be carried out swiftly.
"Hurts" a child? In any way? Are you trying to insure that any child who is molested will also be murdered to prevent future testimony? Because that is what your policy would accomplish.
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Old 04-29-2012, 04:30 PM
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Largely because we don't believe a single, fertilized cell is a "child" or "baby" just because you use the word.
Ehhh...I don't know who this "we" is but please don't presume to speak for anyone but yourself. Regardless, this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.


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