Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

who molested/abused JB?

  • JR

    Votes: 180 27.1%
  • BR

    Votes: 203 30.6%
  • JAR

    Votes: 28 4.2%
  • a close family friend

    Votes: 41 6.2%
  • a stranger/stalker a la JMK

    Votes: 20 3.0%
  • PR-it wasn't sexual abuse,it was corporal punishment

    Votes: 89 13.4%
  • she wasn't previously abused/molested

    Votes: 103 15.5%

  • Total voters
    664
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I have read ST's book and I'm in total agreement with what you've said here, including your comment about Burke. And I've interpreted "digital" to mean anything resembling the size and shape of finger. I don't understand how it could be determined her injuries were solely from digital penetration.

Digital would generally mean "finger" although the term "consistent with digital penetration" leaves the door open somewhat. I can't remember exactly how the autopsy was worded.

Injuries sustained can be identified by markers consistent with certain events. Penal penetration leaves different signs than digital although I would think a douche nozzle or any insertion wand for certain medications could mimic digital penetration.

Patsy could have used a speculum to assist for cleansing and medicating. Douching is another option. Who knows? I don't but Steve Thomas does.

I'm going to throw out a thought that is PURE SPECULATION. I've often wondered if Patsy had to restrain JonBenet in order to carry out the punishment or cleansing thus the need to use cord in the staging.
 
Make "penal" in the above post "penile." And add in "senile."
 
Digital would generally mean "finger" although the term "consistent with digital penetration" leaves the door open somewhat. I can't remember exactly how the autopsy was worded.

Injuries sustained can be identified by markers consistent with certain events. Penal penetration leaves different signs than digital although I would think a douche nozzle or any insertion wand for certain medications could mimic digital penetration.

Patsy could have used a speculum to assist for cleansing and medicating. Douching is another option. Who knows? I don't but Steve Thomas does.

I'm going to throw out a thought that is PURE SPECULATION. I've often wondered if Patsy had to restrain JonBenet in order to carry out the punishment or cleansing thus the need to use cord in the staging.

BOESP,
Coroner Meyer at the autopsy cited digital penetration and sexual contact.

digital in this context means finger or toe so to distinguish it entirely from the use of any other object.

Now the penetration and contact need not be simultaneous, Coroner Meyer could be alluding to two seperate events, e.g. an assault and staging.

If JonBenet's internal injuries had arisen soley from Patsy applying cleaning agents, why were none found in the house, no forensic traces left inside JonBenet, why did the majority of pediatricians interviewed consider sexual abuse as the likely cause?

Nobody doubts, at regular intervals, that Patsy applied topical cream onto JonBenet, so to soothe her skin, irritated by wetting the bed, and a general lack of hygiene.

But the underlying cause of all this and the reason for JonBenet's death and the crime-scene staging was her sexual abuse!
 
BOESP,
Coroner Meyer at the autopsy cited digital penetration and sexual contact.

digital in this context means finger or toe so to distinguish it entirely from the use of any other object.

Now the penetration and contact need not be simultaneous, Coroner Meyer could be alluding to two seperate events, e.g. an assault and staging.

If JonBenet's internal injuries had arisen soley from Patsy applying cleaning agents, why were none found in the house, no forensic traces left inside JonBenet, why did the majority of pediatricians interviewed consider sexual abuse as the likely cause?

Nobody doubts, at regular intervals, that Patsy applied topical cream onto JonBenet, so to soothe her skin, irritated by wetting the bed, and a general lack of hygiene.

But the underlying cause of all this and the reason for JonBenet's death and the crime-scene staging was her sexual abuse!

I've read the autopsy and Arndt's deposition and I can not conclude from that, that JonBenet was abused for sexual gratification. Could you point the way to the statement you are referring to? TIA
 
Digital would generally mean "finger" although the term "consistent with digital penetration" leaves the door open somewhat. I can't remember exactly how the autopsy was worded.

Injuries sustained can be identified by markers consistent with certain events. Penal penetration leaves different signs than digital although I would think a douche nozzle or any insertion wand for certain medications could mimic digital penetration.

Patsy could have used a speculum to assist for cleansing and medicating. Douching is another option. Who knows? I don't but Steve Thomas does.

I'm going to throw out a thought that is PURE SPECULATION. I've often wondered if Patsy had to restrain JonBenet in order to carry out the punishment or cleansing thus the need to use cord in the staging.

While a douche wand is common in many households, a speculum is not. A speculum would be found in a gynecologist's office. I am sure her pediatrician didn't have one-it is not common equipment for a pediatrician either. A child in need of that type of exam would have to be anesthetized and it would be done by a specialist. An adult-sized speculum would not be used. I would state with reasonable certainty that Patsy did not use a speculum on JB. I recall that Dr. Boef, her pediatrician, said that although he examined her, he admitted that he never did an internal exam- which required a speculum.
The housekeeper LHP reported that she used to hear Patsy and JB in the bathroom, lot of screaming and crying. But I doubt she tied her up. JB had no marks on her wrists in death, either, and had she been tied up that night for "cleansing", there would certainly be marks on her wrists at the time she was found. When marks are made on a living person (bruises, etc) they so not heal after death, so they would still be visible, just as the red ligature furrow was still visible.
The more common type of disposable douche would also have caused some erosions and injuries as well, even if no wand was used.
But the coroner should have been able to make the distinction as to whether she had been penetrated by a penis. The wand is shorter than an erect adult penis, and I am sure there would be different types of injuries, perhaps further up in the vaginal canal.
 
While a douche wand is common in many households, a speculum is not. A speculum would be found in a gynecologist's office. I am sure her pediatrician didn't have one-it is not common equipment for a pediatrician either. A child in need of that type of exam would have to be anesthetized and it would be done by a specialist. An adult-sized speculum would not be used. I would state with reasonable certainty that Patsy did not use a speculum on JB. I recall that Dr. Boef, her pediatrician, said that although he examined her, he admitted that he never did an internal exam- which required a speculum.
The housekeeper LHP reported that she used to hear Patsy and JB in the bathroom, lot of screaming and crying. But I doubt she tied her up. JB had no marks on her wrists in death, either, and had she been tied up that night for "cleansing", there would certainly be marks on her wrists at the time she was found. When marks are made on a living person (bruises, etc) they so not heal after death, so they would still be visible, just as the red ligature furrow was still visible.
The more common type of disposable douche would also have caused some erosions and injuries as well, even if no wand was used.
But the coroner should have been able to make the distinction as to whether she had been penetrated by a penis. The wand is shorter than an erect adult penis, and I am sure there would be different types of injuries, perhaps further up in the vaginal canal.

Which leads me to a question about the splinters found inside JB. I do believe that it would be really hard to break a paintbrush as it were. So considering this do you suppose it was whittled?
 
Which leads me to a question about the splinters found inside JB. I do believe that it would be really hard to break a paintbrush as it were. So considering this do you suppose it was whittled?

ST mentioned the splinters in the vagina- but they were never officially listed in any report. The autopsy mentions "birefringent material", doubt that this is the splinters. There was "cellulose" mentioned, which COULD be the wood splinters. To me, avoiding the word "splinter or wood shards" is deliberate and meant to deceive.
We don't know whether the paintbrush was "whittled" or simply broken/snapped- but there were wood splinters that were shown to have come from that broken paintbrush in the basement near the paint tray that the brush came from. The Swiss Army knife was also found nearby. The knife could have been used to slice or saw the brush handle as whittling would have take much longer.
 
ST mentioned the splinters in the vagina- but they were never officially listed in any report. The autopsy mentions "birefringent material", doubt that this is the splinters. There was "cellulose" mentioned, which COULD be the wood splinters. To me, avoiding the word "splinter or wood shards" is deliberate and meant to deceive.
We don't know whether the paintbrush was "whittled" or simply broken/snapped- but there were wood splinters that were shown to have come from that broken paintbrush in the basement near the paint tray that the brush came from. The Swiss Army knife was also found nearby. The knife could have been used to slice or saw the brush handle as whittling would have take much longer.
On November 5, Detective Weinheimer arrived in St. Clair Shores, Michigan, to meet Dr. Werner Spitz, one of the world’s foremost forensic pathologists. Weinheimer took with him a stack of black-and-white photographs of the cellulose that coroner John Meyer had found in JonBenét’s vagina.
…
Finally, the detectives turned to the microscopic splinter of cellulose found in JonBenet’s vagina, which looked like wood. The broken paintbrush that had been tied to the stick was splintered into shards. Logic suggested that a splinter of wood might have stuck to the perpetrator’s finger before he or she penetrated JonBenét vaginally. It could also have broken off the end of the paintbrush if the stick, rather than a finger, was used to penetrate her.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 557, 559
 
On November 5, Detective Weinheimer arrived in St. Clair Shores, Michigan, to meet Dr. Werner Spitz, one of the world’s foremost forensic pathologists. Weinheimer took with him a stack of black-and-white photographs of the cellulose that coroner John Meyer had found in JonBenét’s vagina.
…
Finally, the detectives turned to the microscopic splinter of cellulose found in JonBenet’s vagina, which looked like wood. The broken paintbrush that had been tied to the stick was splintered into shards. Logic suggested that a splinter of wood might have stuck to the perpetrator’s finger before he or she penetrated JonBenét vaginally. It could also have broken off the end of the paintbrush if the stick, rather than a finger, was used to penetrate her.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 557, 559

cynic,
Well thats pretty clear, the splinters are wood. I reckon where the autopsy mentions "birefringent material", its intended to either to project a sense of neutrality, or hide in plain sight that a foreign object had been inserted inside JonBenet.

Coroner Meyer's reference to digital penetration suggests a finger was used, so depositing the splinter, which could have come from the broken paintbrush handle.

So how does the latter view square with the ST's Corporal Punishment Theory, well only if you see the digital penetration as some form of staging. Which is consistent with the application of the paintbrush handle as a garrote.

The same applies if the missing piece of the paintbrush handle was used and left inside JonBenet, details of which may have been redacted?


So ST's theory is consistent until you consider Coroner Meyer's verbatim opinion that JonBenet was subject to sexual contact and that she was unnaturally enlarged, and that a majority of pediatric experts thought JonBenet had sustained chronic abuse.

To keep it consistent, either Patsy was both molesting and applying Corporal Punishment to JonBenet or someone else was also independently molesting JonBenet?

Looks to me as if the wine-cellar staging was enacted to mask the prior molestation?


.
 
I've read the autopsy and Arndt's deposition and I can not conclude from that, that JonBenet was abused for sexual gratification. Could you point the way to the statement you are referring to? TIA

BOESP,
I've read the autopsy and Arndt's deposition and I can not conclude from that, that JonBenet was abused for sexual gratification.
Thats fine. Have you considered that it might be you are not supposed to be able to take the view that JonBenet was molested? Autopsy Reports are supposed to cite injuries etc, not offer causes.

Do you reckon Patsy derived any gratification from applying Corporal Punishment to JonBenet?

.
 
BOESP,

Thats fine. Have you considered that it might be you are not supposed to be able to take the view that JonBenet was molested? Autopsy Reports are supposed to cite injuries etc, not offer causes.

Do you reckon Patsy derived any gratification from applying Corporal Punishment to JonBenet?

.

Not sure what you are saying in the first paragraph above but I'm capable of thinking for myself. Based on what's available to the public, the evidence supports Steve Thomas's theory as published in his book. There is no way to determine, based on information available to the public, if digital penetration/corporal punishment/cleansing/whatever was done for sexual gratification or as part of the corporal punishment. That it happened more than once as well as prior to the night JonBenet died is not in dispute.

I have no way of knowing what Patsy thought about anything. People say and do strange things in anger, especially when overwhelmed by various situations.
 
Not sure what you are saying in the first paragraph above but I'm capable of thinking for myself. Based on what's available to the public, the evidence supports Steve Thomas's theory as published in his book. There is no way to determine, based on information available to the public, if digital penetration/corporal punishment/cleansing/whatever was done for sexual gratification or as part of the corporal punishment. That it happened more than once as well as prior to the night JonBenet died is not in dispute.

I have no way of knowing what Patsy thought about anything. People say and do strange things in anger, especially when overwhelmed by various situations.

BOESP,
Not sure what you are saying in the first paragraph above but I'm capable of thinking for myself.
Thats fine too. It was more a rhetorical paragraph.

I have no way of knowing what Patsy thought about anything. People say and do strange things in anger, especially when overwhelmed by various situations.
So could Patsy have derived sexual gratification from applying Corporal Punishment?


.
 
....
So could Patsy have derived sexual gratification from applying Corporal Punishment?


.

Like I said, there is no way for me to know whether she did or not.
 
Reading through the last pages of posts--very interesting discussion.

I agree that we can't know what was in the mind of the person sexually abusing the child. Whether it was for the sexual gratification of a pedophile, children "playing doctor," or a twisted form of physical abuse involving some kind of sexual psychosis, until we know who it was we can't possibly make a definitive argument about why, can we?

This is also the most uncomfortable topic to discuss in this case--the details of the sexual abuse of a child are just never going to be easy for me. Having said that, you've brought up one question not often discussed which has always puzzled me: how did the paintbrush end up in three pieces?

Whittling has always been a possibility. Maybe it's time to enlarge some CS photos to look for knife marks?

The autopsy describes the broken ends on the ligature device as jagged. I agree this doesn't seem easily accomplished, but I've never tried it. I'm not sure I could break a brush with my bare hands--maybe I'd have to put my foot on one end at least? I did once try to find a brush like that one, and I'm thinking it was a short, stout brush as well, like those used in Japanese calligraphy or ink art or with children's paints? But it's been a while so maybe I'm wrong about that. Does anyone else remember any details about this particular brush type?

Here are a couple of pictures from FFJ which might help in the discussion:

attachment.php


attachment.php


These photos are at FFJ, but before you click this link, WARNING! GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS:

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9784"]Autopsy photos: CAUTION GRAPHIC - Forums For Justice[/ame]
 
Also, I've been working with cords recently in a craft which uses them, so I just noticed something else I may or may not have noticed before (been researching this case waaaaaay too long): the ends of the cords found on JonBenet were quite unraveled. I tape mine so that won't happen. Now I wonder if these had been cut before that night:

attachment.php


Picture from FFJ, but WARNING! GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS:

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9784"]Autopsy photos: CAUTION GRAPHIC - Forums For Justice[/ame]

See if this clarifies what I'm thinking: these cords were not cut with scissors, but were "sawed." I once read a fiber from the cord was found on the Swiss Army Knife found in the basement. Also remember there was an odd kitchen "paring" knife found on the washing machine in the laundry area outside JB's room.

[Click to enlarge the picture.]
 

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Reading through the last pages of posts--very interesting discussion.

I agree that we can't know what was in the mind of the person sexually abusing the child. Whether it was for the sexual gratification of a pedophile, children "playing doctor," or a twisted form of physical abuse involving some kind of sexual psychosis, until we know who it was we can't possibly make a definitive argument about why, can we?

This is also the most uncomfortable topic to discuss in this case--the details of the sexual abuse of a child are just never going to be easy for me. Having said that, you've brought up one question not often discussed which has always puzzled me: how did the paintbrush end up in three pieces?

Whittling has always been a possibility. Maybe it's time to enlarge some CS photos to look for knife marks?

The autopsy describes the broken ends on the ligature device as jagged. I agree this doesn't seem easily accomplished, but I've never tried it. I'm not sure I could break a brush with my bare hands--maybe I'd have to put my foot on one end at least? I did once try to find a brush like that one, and I'm thinking it was a short, stout brush as well, like those used in Japanese calligraphy or ink art or with children's paints? But it's been a while so maybe I'm wrong about that. Does anyone else remember any details about this particular brush type?

Here are a couple of pictures from FFJ which might help in the discussion:

attachment.php


attachment.php


These photos are at FFJ, but before you click this link, WARNING! GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS:

Autopsy photos: CAUTION GRAPHIC - Forums For Justice

And something else that makes this seem more like the brush had been whittled is that a splinter from the brush was found inside JB. I'm a grown adult and cannot imagine the strength it would take to actually break a paintbrush with my hands if it it had been soaking in a water bath for a week.

Burke stated during his first interview that he knew what happened to JB. Burke stated that he asked my dad, where did you find her body? He said, in the basement. I think someone took her down in the basement ... took a knife out (losing words, he made a slashing gesture) or hit her on the head. Burke knew that his swiss army knife was down in the basement when intereviewed 3 days after JB passing even though the police (only) were privy to this information. Quite interesting.
 
Also, I've been working with cords recently in a craft which uses them, so I just noticed something else I may or may not have noticed before (been researching this case waaaaaay too long): the ends of the cords found on JonBenet were quite unraveled. I tape mine so that won't happen. Now I wonder if these had been cut before that night:

attachment.php


Picture from FFJ, but WARNING! GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS:

Autopsy photos: CAUTION GRAPHIC - Forums For Justice

See if this clarifies what I'm thinking: these cords were not cut with scissors, but were "sawed." I once read a fiber from the cord was found on the Swiss Army Knife found in the basement. Also remember there was an odd kitchen "paring" knife found on the washing machine in the laundry area outside JB's room.

[Click to enlarge the picture.]

Or cut that night. Burke seems to know more than he was allowed to say. He was aked how he was dealing with his sister's death, and Burke repllied, "I kind of forgot about it. I just kind of go .... and he lapsed into sounds similiar to Nintendo beeps.

Maybe it is just me but the day of JB funeral in Bolder he was smiling from ear to ear. I don't even recall many pictures of Burke smiling and honestly never ear to ear before this. How odd to be so happy at your sister's passing?
 
Or cut that night. Burke seems to know more than he was allowed to say. He was aked how he was dealing with his sister's death, and Burke repllied, "I kind of forgot about it. I just kind of go .... and he lapsed into sounds similiar to Nintendo beeps.

Maybe it is just me but the day of JB funeral in Bolder he was smiling from ear to ear. I don't even recall many pictures of Burke smiling and honestly never ear to ear before this. How odd to be so happy at your sister's passing?

I agree. I think thats why they whisked him away that morning before anyone could talk to him. And also why the Rs waited so damn long to talk with police or respond to ANY of their requests. The more time that passes the more opportunity for confusion and mistakes. And that would work to their advantage.

In the Thomas book, Burke mentions JB's bed wetting being a real problem. I wonder if he was jealous of all the attention JB got from the pageants and all? Maybe in his mind the funeral was a happy time because he could get back to having the full attention of his parents.
 
Reading through the last pages of posts--very interesting discussion.

I agree that we can't know what was in the mind of the person sexually abusing the child. Whether it was for the sexual gratification of a pedophile, children "playing doctor," or a twisted form of physical abuse involving some kind of sexual psychosis, until we know who it was we can't possibly make a definitive argument about why, can we?

This is also the most uncomfortable topic to discuss in this case--the details of the sexual abuse of a child are just never going to be easy for me. Having said that, you've brought up one question not often discussed which has always puzzled me: how did the paintbrush end up in three pieces?

Whittling has always been a possibility. Maybe it's time to enlarge some CS photos to look for knife marks?

The autopsy describes the broken ends on the ligature device as jagged. I agree this doesn't seem easily accomplished, but I've never tried it. I'm not sure I could break a brush with my bare hands--maybe I'd have to put my foot on one end at least? I did once try to find a brush like that one, and I'm thinking it was a short, stout brush as well, like those used in Japanese calligraphy or ink art or with children's paints? But it's been a while so maybe I'm wrong about that. Does anyone else remember any details about this particular brush type?

Here are a couple of pictures from FFJ which might help in the discussion:

attachment.php


attachment.php


These photos are at FFJ, but before you click this link, WARNING! GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS:

Autopsy photos: CAUTION GRAPHIC - Forums For Justice

KoldKase,
Once , a long time ago, I tried with my bare hands to break a paintbrush just like Patsy's. I thought it would be a breeze, well I failed and caused some discomfort to my hands. The bevel in the paintbrush prevents the pressure being applied uniformly, so obstructing any breakage.

The v shape on the end of the piece of paintbrush is characteristic of it being snapped not whittled. And with shards found just outside the wine-cellar door, assuming someone simply rested it against the wall and stood on it, seems reasonable. Repeating the process gives you three pieces.

This is why any talk of EA, is I reckon nonsense. The garrote was probably applied at the end of a staging process, and with Patsy's fibers embedded into the knotting, it appears it was her who constructed it.

I suspect JonBenet was partially strangled, say by her collar, and that the garrote is there in an attempt to mask it. The garrote is alike the size-12's, e.g. redundant, not required to stage a crime-scene. We would have all been
fooled if JonBenet had been left wearing Bloomingdales size-6 Tuesday, and the ligature minus the paintbrush handle was left around her neck.

So assuming the forensic evidence is correct, we have John implicated in cleaning up evidence of JonBenet's abuse and Patsy fabricating a crime-scene.

If Coroner Meyer had never mentioned Sexual Contact and all those pedatric experts not opined that there had been chronic molestation. I would be content with PDI.

But with a piece of the paintbrush handle missing, possibly having been left inside JonBenet, e.g. ideal for masking acute abuse. And no explanation for the barbie doll or gown, then ST's theory is not consistent with all the evidence.


.
 
And something else that makes this seem more like the brush had been whittled is that a splinter from the brush was found inside JB. I'm a grown adult and cannot imagine the strength it would take to actually break a paintbrush with my hands if it it had been soaking in a water bath for a week.

Burke stated during his first interview that he knew what happened to JB. Burke stated that he asked my dad, where did you find her body? He said, in the basement. I think someone took her down in the basement ... took a knife out (losing words, he made a slashing gesture) or hit her on the head. Burke knew that his swiss army knife was down in the basement when intereviewed 3 days after JB passing even though the police (only) were privy to this information. Quite interesting.

Flatlander,
Even if its BDI, I doubt Burke had much to do with the wine-cellar staging, also his parents, on forensic grounds, would want to separate him from the wine-cellar area.

The swiss army knife does not offer much in way of clues, as it is Ramsey property. At most it can only suggest, what most RDI think, e.g. a Ramsey was involved.


For me its either PDI with John as an accessory, or JDI with Patsy as an accessory. BDI is an option, but how do we factor in the abuse?


.
 
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