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  #51  
Old 04-29-2012, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
I don't see him as the "victim" in the original crime, obviously. But he is the victim of the more recent crime, that which occurred when we killed him.

We are NOT soft on crime and we are NOT losing any fight. We have the highest rates of incarceration and execution in the free world. Meanwhile our crime rates have been falling for over 30 years. (There may be a link there and I am not opposed to long sentences, including LWOP, for murderers.)

Let's stop scaring ourselves into killing people, even bad people. It isn't necessary and it isn't right.
This where IMO comes in....you are speaking in facts when nothing is provided to back them up.

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  #52  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:15 PM
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Ehhh...I don't know who this "we" is but please don't presume to speak for anyone but yourself. Regardless, this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.


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I think the "we" was obvious: it was those of us who oppose the d.p. but support a woman's right to choose. And find no contradiction in doing so.
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  #53  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by thefragile7393 View Post
This where IMO comes in....you are speaking in facts when nothing is provided to back them up....
And how would that make me different from the poster who claimed we are "losing" the war on crime?

But since you asked:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm


You'll find the total number of murders for 2010 was as low as it has been since 1968, when the U.S. had only two-thirds its current population. And that's TOTAL murders, not per capita!

As I implied above, some of this decline may be due to our keeping murderers in prison for longer periods of time and I have no problem with that. But it simply isn't true that we are slowly "losing" our battle against violent crime and therefore need to kill murderers.
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  #54  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
And how would that make me different from the poster who claimed we are "losing" the war on crime?

But since you asked:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm


You'll find the total number of murders for 2010 was as low as it has been since 1968, when the U.S. had only two-thirds its current population. And that's TOTAL murders, not per capita!

As I implied above, some of this decline may be due to our keeping murderers in prison for longer periods of time and I have no problem with that. But it simply isn't true that we are slowly "losing" our battle against violent crime and therefore need to kill murderers.
Going off on a tangent here, but I remember seeing or reading something some time ago about rates of recidivism and the great success that the Quakers had in their prisons. I'll have to see what I can find about it. If I recall correctly, they had extremely low rates, despite shorter prison sentences.
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  #55  
Old 04-29-2012, 07:07 PM
TerriM TerriM is offline
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Originally Posted by SwampMama View Post
Wow, the waking up during surgery happened to me. The paralyzing drug worked but the one to put me under and to keep me from feeling pain didnt. I was feeling every cut of the knife into my back and could not talk, move or tell them. Luckily the anesthesiologist saw my vital signs were going crazy and quickly gave me a huge dose to put me under again. Come to find out, redheads require MORE anesthesia, usually at least 25% more than others, Weird but true.

But as for the executed criminal who was "shaking". Heck he could have been laughing for all we know. I know I shake the bed when I am looking at funny stuff on the internet and trying not to wake up Mr. Swamp with my giggling.

What he experienced was nothing more than any person getting an IV does. I still have zero sympathy for him.

He could have been shaking with anger that he was getting what he deserved and could not hurt anyone anymore.
oh my, i have had.about 10th surgeries in 12 years and that happening is one of my worst fears. I feel so bad for you. Always remember to tell your surgon about this if you you ever require more surgery or the anesthesiologist.
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  #56  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AnaTeresa View Post
Going off on a tangent here, but I remember seeing or reading something some time ago about rates of recidivism and the great success that the Quakers had in their prisons. I'll have to see what I can find about it. If I recall correctly, they had extremely low rates, despite shorter prison sentences.
I don't know anything about Quaker prisons, Ana. But although I am anti-d.p., I'm really not "soft" on crime. I have no problem sending murderers away for life--for the protection of the rest of society.
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  #57  
Old 04-29-2012, 11:18 PM
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impatientredhead impatientredhead is offline
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Shaking is not necessarily a sign of pain.



When were we granted the right to a painless death?

Accident victims die painful deaths.
Cancer patients suffer for months in many cases.

Lethal injection made one guy shake?
Not high on my list of social issues that need resolution.
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  #58  
Old 04-30-2012, 01:30 AM
leanaí leanaí is offline
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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
Largely because we don't believe a single, fertilized cell is a "child" or "baby" just because you use the word.

That's not what I've heard from those who have gotten one. They knew very well that they were killing a child and did it any ways. And Since this thread isn't about abortion I will refrain myself from talking about it anymore.

And why should that be on their heads and their consciences? Haven't they suffered enough? A murder is a crime against the state and should be punished by the state. Murdering to punish murder not only sends a mixed message, it is just plain wrong.

I said they DESERVE the right to have a say in it, if they can't handle that then the state can decide.

"Hurts" a child? In any way? Are you trying to insure that any child who is molested will also be murdered to prevent future testimony? Because that is what your policy would accomplish.

Would that really be the case? Because how I see it now kids are still being murdered who were molested even though the scum bag wouldn't receive the dp for just molesting them.
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  #59  
Old 04-30-2012, 02:41 AM
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Would that really be the case? Because how I see it now kids are still being murdered who were molested even though the scum bag wouldn't receive the dp for just molesting them.
In far too many cases, that's true. But why provide an incentive for ALL child molesters to kill their victims?
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  #60  
Old 04-30-2012, 08:24 AM
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AnaTeresa AnaTeresa is offline
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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
I don't know anything about Quaker prisons, Ana. But although I am anti-d.p., I'm really not "soft" on crime. I have no problem sending murderers away for life--for the protection of the rest of society.
I didn't mean to imply that you were - the general slant of discussion just made me remember it. I've googled and haven't found anything substantive yet, so perhaps I'm misremembering the program. What I remember was that prison sentences were shorter, but solitary confinement was used more - the only contact a prisoner had was with a minister. It significantly cut down on reoffending. Granted, I think this would be more towards things like theft, rather than murder, but recidivism rates are interesting to me. If I can find that info, maybe it will have stats broken down by crime. I really should have written this down when I saw it!
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  #61  
Old 04-30-2012, 05:23 PM
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No problem, Ana. I didn't think YOU were accusing me of being soft on crime. That's just the stereotype I usually encounter when my opposition to the d.p. is known. In fact, I'm quite happy to lock up murderers for a long time (even for life) in order to protect society.
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  #62  
Old 04-30-2012, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AnaTeresa View Post
What jumped out at me was that this state uses the one drug combo, rather than three - and it's phenobarbital, rather than sodium thiopental (although I know there are supply issues with that drug manufacturer). Phenobarbital can cause seizures, whereas sodium thiopental does not seem to. Although there are issues with sodium thiopental wearing off too quickly, because administration of the dose is not done by medical professionals with dosages tailored specifically. Just because no other inmates physically shook does not mean that it's issue-free.

For me personally, the only way I could feel comfortable with the death penalty is if it were administered in such a way that it isn't cruel and unusual punishment - and if we have eliminated innocent persons from being convicted. I cannot imagine anything more horrifying than an innocent person being put to death, and that death being tortuous. It's all about Blackstone for me - better than ten guilty go free than one innocent man condemned.
There is no proof whatsoever these injections constitute torture. Again, this was several SECONDS, not several minutes, hours or days. If you really want to stretch it, IMO it could be considered cruel and unusual to know the time, down to the minute, of your death. And you really think it's better for ten guilty people to go free than one innocent to be condemned?

Let me give you a brief synopsis on Kenneth McDuff. He was tried and convicted of murder, sentenced to death. He and another man kidnapped two boys and a girl. The boys were then shot in their heads and killed. The girl was brutally raped by both men and they also violated her with a broken broomstick handle, then murdered her as well. The death penalty was overturned, so McDuff got his sentence changed to life, and then guess what, he got paroled. There's one guilty person set free. He was later again convicted for murdering two more women, one of whom was pregnant, and is suspected of killing at least four more.

So there's one guilty man set free, and at least six innocent women and an unborn child paid for it with their lives, and I sincerely doubt any of those six women were granted a kind and peaceful death.

I don't care what drug combo is used in lethal injection. My understanding it the offer is made to the inmate to be put to sleep before the injection is administered. If the inmate chooses to refuse, and then suffers some pain, which again has not been proven, then that is not any kind of reason to go back to the drawing board on how to carry out death sentences. If anything, force the inmate to be put to sleep first, problem solved.
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  #63  
Old 04-30-2012, 06:01 PM
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Maybe the inmate was shaking because he was dying, but the medication must not have worked correctly. I'm not really for or against the DP, but not that many are executed yearly, so I don't see why they can't be kept in for LWOP. The rapists and molesters who do light sentences then get out to kill their victims worries me.
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  #64  
Old 04-30-2012, 06:53 PM
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I've often wondered why they dont use firearms for execution. Getting shot through the head with a large-caliber bullet would certaintly be painless, but also messy.
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  #65  
Old 04-30-2012, 07:18 PM
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I've often wondered why they dont use firearms for execution. Getting shot through the head with a large-caliber bullet would certaintly be painless, but also messy.
Shooters occasionally miss. People shot in the head don't always die and even those who do may suffer a great deal of pain first.

And, yes, it's messy, which upsets us to imagine. (This is probably the main reason, but to me, the least important one.)
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  #66  
Old 04-30-2012, 07:22 PM
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...Let me give you a brief synopsis on Kenneth McDuff....
The system failed in so many ways with McDuff, I hardly think that's a fair example. If we had had LWOP in the first place and decent security in Texas prisons, most of his victims would have been saved.

But are you seriously arguing it's better for the State to kill a few innocent people? Which volunteers do you have in mind?
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  #67  
Old 04-30-2012, 09:31 PM
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I've often wondered why they dont use firearms for execution. Getting shot through the head with a large-caliber bullet would certaintly be painless, but also messy.
It would be cheaper.
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  #68  
Old 04-30-2012, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by impatientredhead View Post
Shaking is not necessarily a sign of pain.



When were we granted the right to a painless death?

Accident victims die painful deaths.
Cancer patients suffer for months in many cases.

Lethal injection made one guy shake?
Not high on my list of social issues that need resolution.
Really....so he may have been just plain chilled. So what. At least he got to "go to sleep" and not have to meet ole sparky.poor baby
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:07 PM
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I've often wondered why they dont use firearms for execution. Getting shot through the head with a large-caliber bullet would certaintly be painless, but also messy.
A hose and broom would be helpful. ok that was mean but what he did was worse.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:20 PM
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A hose and broom would be helpful. ok that was mean but what he did was worse.
The question is what sort of people do you and I want to be?

Saying we're better than Kenneth McDuff may be true, but it is setting the bar awfully low.
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