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  #76  
Old 05-03-2012, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack View Post
I'm with you! There is no reason a four year old child cannot be controlled, so if someone is unwilling to discipline their own child they shouldn't be surprised or offended if someone else does.

Would I want some stranger to discipline my child? NO. But I can also say there wouldn't be a need because I would have done it myself.

I can't tell you how many times I have wanted to discipline someone else's child. I get really sick of having my peace disturbed by some kid who's parents are oblivious. The general public should not have to put up with someone's out of control kid. When I was a kid if someone had swatted me for doing something wrong my mom probably would have swatted me again for being so disrespectful that they felt they had to to that. Of course times are different now, maybe we should start calling police when parents wont discipline/control their children and it disturbs our peace, ruins our dinners, movies, etc. (I'm only half kidding, something really does need to be done.)

Its a rare treat these days to get to see a child who is pleasant to be around.
Sad fact is many parents are not parents. Too many parents want to be friends with their children. It just shows that having children does not make a person mature. Sad fact is they are even more immature than the child.
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:57 PM
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While you have a point, think about it this way. I am an adult woman out in public. Is it acceptable for a stranger to swat me on the behind? Not brush against me or unintentionally bump into me, but intentionally touch me. No it is not. If we required actual harm before police action could be taken, then we should write off peeping toms right now. The point is that this is a stranger touching this child. People keep looking at the issue as one of discipline or spanking or kids run amock these days. To me, if it is unacceptable for one adult to touch another adult in this manner in public, then it sure as heck should be for kids as well.

Frankly, if a strange man swatted me on the butt, you can bet I'd have the cops out to arrest him ASAP, regardless of whether I was hurt or not. It is completely unacceptable to touch a stranger in that way.
I can see what you mean, but this isn't quite the same as a peeping tom/pervy butt toucher. This child wasn't minding his own business when the man reached out and touched him on the behind - that would be a matter for the police! The child was making a nuisance of himself and had been repeatedly told to stop. The mother did nothing. So when the guy got irritated and swatted the child on the butt too lightly to hurt him, I don't think that should be a matter for the police.
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Cappuccino View Post
I can see what you mean, but this isn't quite the same as a peeping tom/pervy butt toucher. This child wasn't minding his own business when the man reached out and touched him on the behind - that would be a matter for the police! The child was making a nuisance of himself and had been repeatedly told to stop. The mother did nothing. So when the guy got irritated and swatted the child on the butt too lightly to hurt him, I don't think that should be a matter for the police.
It doesn't have to be a pervy touch. Say I'm at a bar and I make a smart aleck comment to someone and they swat my behind. Again, they still have no legal right to touch me. This is the law as it is written.
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:05 PM
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I'm not sure it should be when it comes to children running riot in a public place. If their parents don't control them then a swat on the back of the legs from a stranger should be legal.

(I'm feeling grumpy today).
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:11 PM
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HA, the guy wouldn't have had to swat me, if my mom told me once to leave the man's cat alone & I didn't.......OMG, I would have gotten more than a swat from my mom! Yep right there in the vet's office in front of everybody, full blown spanking, that's how my mom rolled! The whole incident would have never taken place because my mom taught me better than that, I would have never dreamed of touching something that belonged to someone else without permission. Hey it worked for my mom & I lived through it so I don't see the problem. Kids have to have a reason not to misbehave & mine was fear of mom lol! Don't get me wrong, my mom was & is a great mom, she simply did not put up with me misbehaving. Heck, she's going to be 77 in July & she can still shut me up with a look!

I have zero tolerance for out of control kids, if you can't control them then leave them home! Would I have smacked the kid on the butt, no.....would I have wanted to YES! I certainly would have told the kid to leave my cat alone & if he didn't listen, then I would have told the mother & if it continued, I would have approached the staff at the vet, but I certainly would not have moved or moved my cat out of the kids reach, it would have been a stand off until that kid got the message!

It will be interesting to see how this pans out, if they get a judge like Judge Judy me thinks the kids mom is in for a tongue lashing!
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Flutterby80 View Post
Ok to let your kid mess with someone's injured pet? NO
Ok to swat said child? NO
Ok to call the police and press charges over the whole thing? NO

I think the police have better things to do. You know who I feel sorry for? The vet staff who had to witness that entire scene. It sounds to me like there was much overreaction and under-parenting going on.
I don't feel that sorry for the staff. How hard would it have been for one of them to say, "Oh, Rusty, I can tell Sasha is feeling really grumpy after her surgery. Let's get her back to a room where it's quiet." I have had my vet tech do that when it's just two dogs who are too big for the waiting room. (And by too big, I mean their personalities.) Someone, anyone, using some common sense in this equation would have gone a long way towards preventing it.


While I totally disagree with this man laying a hand on the child, I can't believe he was arrested. We used to own a restaurant and one of our friends is possibly the most oblivious parent in the world! They would come in and let their DD2 run around, climb on the table, pour out salt and pepper into cups and onto her food, and generally trash the place while they chatted. Many times I had to intervene and take the salt shaker away from her, trying gently to say, "Oh, that wouldn't taste good! Let's not spill the salt!" No response from her mom.

But one night, she wandered into the kitchen. My husband, who is very leery of touching other people's kids (he doesn't even like to hold someone else's baby much) had this little girl under the arms and was carrying her like that trying to find her mother - who, by the way, was completely clueless to the whole situation. The little girl had gotten within 2 feet of the 700 degree oven! And they are exactly the people who would have sued us if she had been burned.

Again, swatting the kid was not the right choice, but I'll bet you anything this mother would have raised holy hell if her kid had been scratched or bit. There's absolutely no excuse for not controlling your kid OR removing him from the situation, especially when it means they are in danger.
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Old 05-03-2012, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jjenny View Post
That's not correct. The owner says that the kid did grabbed hold of the carrier and tried to pull it off the chair. This cat just had surgery. I wouldn't be happy if somebody tried to do that to my pet.

I wouldn't either. Still does not excuse the cat's owner for setting the carrier down on a chair. If the cat was that distressed, why not set the carrier in a place no one had access? Or carry it?

Kids get upset. Adults can not expect children to act like adults and have adult behavior. They are curious. Don't lay something down in front of a child and expect them not to be curious. Adults have a responsibility to have appropriate behavior around children too.

I wouldn't have made the stupid mistake to set something down in front of a child that I didn't want the child to touch.
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Old 05-03-2012, 06:58 PM
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I wouldn't either. Still does not excuse the cat's owner for setting the carrier down on a chair. If the cat was that distressed, why not set the carrier in a place no one had access? Or carry it?

Kids get upset. Adults can not expect children to act like adults and have adult behavior. They are curious. Don't lay something down in front of a child and expect them not to be curious. Adults have a responsibility to have appropriate behavior around children too.

I wouldn't have made the stupid mistake to set something down in front of a child that I didn't want the child to touch.
I think in a vet's office you should have the reasonable expectation that you could set a pet carrier anywhere and not have anyone mess with it. Children included.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Cubby View Post
I wouldn't either. Still does not excuse the cat's owner for setting the carrier down on a chair. If the cat was that distressed, why not set the carrier in a place no one had access? Or carry it?

Kids get upset. Adults can not expect children to act like adults and have adult behavior. They are curious. Don't lay something down in front of a child and expect them not to be curious. Adults have a responsibility to have appropriate behavior around children too.

I wouldn't have made the stupid mistake to set something down in front of a child that I didn't want the child to touch.
So it's okay for people to be inconvenienced by a clueless mother and out-of-control child? I never expected my son at 4 years old to act like an adult, but I had enough common sense to curb any out of control behavior that was annoying to other people!
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Cubby View Post
I wouldn't either. Still does not excuse the cat's owner for setting the carrier down on a chair. If the cat was that distressed, why not set the carrier in a place no one had access? Or carry it?

Kids get upset. Adults can not expect children to act like adults and have adult behavior. They are curious. Don't lay something down in front of a child and expect them not to be curious. Adults have a responsibility to have appropriate behavior around children too.

I wouldn't have made the stupid mistake to set something down in front of a child that I didn't want the child to touch.
This wasn't in a playground or child-friendly restaurant, it was vet's waiting room for crying out loud. Why should the entire world have to inconvenience themselves to babysit and pander to someone else's kids. Frankly, while I absolutely agree that the man should not have touched the child, I'm guessing under normal circumstances he would not but anxiety and protectiveness for our pets when they are sick can make us react in ways we normally wouldn't to provocation of this nature. I brought up two sons and had either one of them acted out this way in ANY public place I'd have been the one to remove them and certainly, if I hadn't realised, after the first 'stop' from another adult. As for kids not being expected to act like adults, 4 years old is quite old enough IMO for a child to have been taught to respect other people's property, recognise that no means no and know darned well they are not allowed to touch stuff that doesn't belong to them without permission. I had a friend who totally removed anything out of reach she did not want her kids to touch and she'd call ahead to people she was visiting to do the same - I told her categorically "No!" Tell your children NOT to touch, simple. And if they are too young to understand then you move them away from the objects in question NOT the other way round. I have no patience with parents who expect the whole world to endure their kids appalling behaviour when they are sitting right there doing nothing. The man was wrong to act as he did no question, but, again, he was, as I view it, very much provoked especially as the mother did NOTHING to defuse the situation.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:58 AM
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What would he have done if a large or obnoxious dog were in the waiting area, sticking it's nose in the cage ? Hit the dog ? 2 adults had a responsibility in that room, mom was responsible for junior, the guy was responsible for the cat. I find it a bit creepy that he swatted another person's child. The child could have just been to the pediatrician, or ill. At the time of the incident the man didn't know. Yeah, i would have spoken loudly to mom and asked her to keep the kiddo at bay, but for the benefit of my pet, I would have moved the cage too.
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:05 AM
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I am maybe so sensitive to this because I recently have read articles and researched "childism". Honestly, there is no other class of humans that we advocate should be beaten, denied of rights, or otherwise disdained than children. There is no group of people, that are believed to be owned by other people, than children, as in, look the other way while I abuse these people I own, my children.

Eye opening. In our society today, thankfully, parents don't OWN their children in the sense that they can abuse them as they please, or raise them in whatever bizarre an unusual fashion they see fit. But rather, they are civilly responsible for feeding and caring for them, for the time that they are juveniles, with societal standards looking on with approval. This doesn't include this weirdo guy in the vet clinic.

And I also have to say, obnoxious adults are 10X more obnoxious than irritating children. In my humble opinion. If I have to be on a plane with obnoxious adults give me 10 misbehaving children instead - that would be way better. ;D
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JeannaT View Post
I am maybe so sensitive to this because I recently have read articles and researched "childism". Honestly, there is no other class of humans that we advocate should be beaten, denied of rights, or otherwise disdained than children. There is no group of people, that are believed to be owned by other people, than children, as in, look the other way while I abuse these people I own, my children.

Eye opening. In our society today, thankfully, parents don't OWN their children in the sense that they can abuse them as they please, or raise them in whatever bizarre an unusual fashion they see fit. But rather, they are civilly responsible for feeding and caring for them, for the time that they are juveniles, with societal standards looking on with approval. This doesn't include this weirdo guy in the vet clinic.

And I also have to say, obnoxious adults are 10X more obnoxious than irritating children. In my humble opinion. If I have to be on a plane with obnoxious adults give me 10 misbehaving children instead - that would be way better. ;D
BBM^ Same here. Matter of fact, even worse, IMO, is listening to grown adults rant on and on about so-called misbehaving children...GMAB!
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Old 05-04-2012, 05:57 PM
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Okay, maybe he shouldn't have swatted the kid, but as a cat owner, and being that I love my cat more than most humans?? If someone allowed their child near my cat, who just had surgery, you better bet I'm going to yell at the kid to get the h$#% away from my cat! Oh my nieces have been swatted for going near my cat when my cat didn't want to be bothered and when they bothered her and came crying to me about her scratching them, I told them they deserved it. Children, a lot of them, do not know how to handle animals nicely. They don't realize that they are not toys. They are living, breathing, feeling creatures.

I feel a lot worse for the cat then I do the kid!

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Old 05-04-2012, 06:39 PM
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I don't feel that sorry for the staff. How hard would it have been for one of them to say, "Oh, Rusty, I can tell Sasha is feeling really grumpy after her surgery. Let's get her back to a room where it's quiet." I have had my vet tech do that when it's just two dogs who are too big for the waiting room. (And by too big, I mean their personalities.) Someone, anyone, using some common sense in this equation would have gone a long way towards preventing it.


While I totally disagree with this man laying a hand on the child, I can't believe he was arrested. We used to own a restaurant and one of our friends is possibly the most oblivious parent in the world! They would come in and let their DD2 run around, climb on the table, pour out salt and pepper into cups and onto her food, and generally trash the place while they chatted. Many times I had to intervene and take the salt shaker away from her, trying gently to say, "Oh, that wouldn't taste good! Let's not spill the salt!" No response from her mom.

But one night, she wandered into the kitchen. My husband, who is very leery of touching other people's kids (he doesn't even like to hold someone else's baby much) had this little girl under the arms and was carrying her like that trying to find her mother - who, by the way, was completely clueless to the whole situation. The little girl had gotten within 2 feet of the 700 degree oven! And they are exactly the people who would have sued us if she had been burned.

Again, swatting the kid was not the right choice, but I'll bet you anything this mother would have raised holy hell if her kid had been scratched or bit. There's absolutely no excuse for not controlling your kid OR removing him from the situation, especially when it means they are in danger.
Talk about a really permissive parent right there.
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:04 AM
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I wouldn't have made the stupid mistake to set something down in front of a child that I didn't want the child to touch.
This was a VET's office not a day care. The place is specifically operating for the benefit of non-human animals.

By your logic I suppose if I brought my injured/sick dog in to the vets office and a kid ran up to grab my dog, and refused to back off when told to, then it would be MY fault if my dog bit the kid? No. No no no.

And there is NO evidence to suggest the man "set the cat carrier down in front of the child".
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:56 AM
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This is making a mountain out of a mole hill. Mom can take the time to call 911 and make a report, but can't control her child in a vet's office and had to see the chaos he was causing. This guy is reeping the vengence of a mother who holds others accountable for their actions but not her own self.

He should never have touched the child, but perhaps a stressfull situation was made worse by her failure to stop her child.
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Old 05-05-2012, 11:10 AM
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He should never have touched the child, but perhaps a stressfull situation was made worse by her failure to stop her child.
The fact he paddled the child implies (to me) that maybe he has kids of his own or has raised some?

I would have just gotten really loud/scary and verbally demanded that the child move away, then started in on the mother if she dared show attitude (ain't no law against verbally humiliating people!) I would not have thought to paddle the kid.

I have on a couple of occasions put my hand up and physically blocked kids that were approaching a dog I was not sure about (used to do Doberman rescue) so I guess the parents could have charged me with assault whilst I attempted to keep their offspring from possibly having their face bitten off.
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Old 05-05-2012, 11:22 AM
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This was a VET's office not a day care. The place is specifically operating for the benefit of non-human animals.

By your logic I suppose if I brought my injured/sick dog in to the vets office and a kid ran up to grab my dog, and refused to back off when told to, then it would be MY fault if my dog bit the kid? No. No no no.

And there is NO evidence to suggest the man "set the cat carrier down in front of the child".

Per the article, the man set the carrier down on an empty seat for which anyone had access. If the pet was ill keep the carrier close. I'm sure I am much smaller than this man was, and I have NEVER in my life been unable to carry the cat carrier for any visit to the vet. When I have set the carrier on- not behind- the counter at vet visits, which is tall due to large dogs, it is still within my reach, but not the reach of a small child, or anyone who could have bumped into it and knocked it over for any reason. Including large dogs that could have easily knocked it over with the swing of a tail. Similiarly to how German Shepards can with things on a coffee table.

The man was responsible for ensuring his kitten was safe. Carriers designed for cats are so tiny a 9 yr old could carry them with ease. The man was negligent for not watching his own animal and carrying it at all times.
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Last edited by Cubby; 05-05-2012 at 11:36 AM. Reason: add
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Old 05-05-2012, 11:30 AM
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Yes, the man was responsible for insuring the cat was safe. Which he accomplished by swatting the child on his behind. Child's mother should control her child when she is out with this child in public.
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Old 05-05-2012, 11:38 AM
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What if it had been a newborn baby at the hospital, rather than a cat? Would that change the opinion of those aghast at the man's actions? I feel the man was completely with in his rights - he told the child no, in front of the mother, who admits she couldn't control the kid, and the child persisted.

To those who suggested the man just move the cat - why not have the mother move the child? The mother admitted the child have control issues - why is the child even there? All kinds of dangerous distractions in a VET's office. Mother's lucky the uncontrollable child didn't get in to more trouble.
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Old 05-05-2012, 11:40 AM
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Yes, the man was responsible for insuring the cat was safe. Which he accomplished by swatting the child on his behind. Child's mother should control her child when she is out with this child in public.

And what did he get accomplished, getting arrested! If what he did was legal, there would have NEVER been an arrest.

It is illegal to hit another person, adult or child. Why is it children are not worthy? I don't understand people in this thread thinking it is OK for a stranger to hit a child.

There are many many people who are child/ren intolerant. Men like this guy need to move to an all inclusive 55+ community where they don't have to encounter children who are going to set them off with any behaviorial infractions.
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Old 05-05-2012, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by LolaMoon08 View Post
Okay, maybe he shouldn't have swatted the kid, but as a cat owner, and being that I love my cat more than most humans?? If someone allowed their child near my cat, who just had surgery, you better bet I'm going to yell at the kid to get the h$#% away from my cat! Oh my nieces have been swatted for going near my cat when my cat didn't want to be bothered and when they bothered her and came crying to me about her scratching them, I told them they deserved it. Children, a lot of them, do not know how to handle animals nicely. They don't realize that they are not toys. They are living, breathing, feeling creatures.

I feel a lot worse for the cat then I do the kid!

MOO
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Old 05-05-2012, 11:42 AM
jjenny jjenny is offline
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Originally Posted by Cubby View Post
And what did he get accomplished, getting arrested! If what he did was legal, there would have NEVER been an arrest.

It is illegal to hit another person, adult or child. Why is it children are not worthy? I don't understand people in this thread thinking it is OK for a stranger to hit a child.

There are many many people who are child/ren intolerant. Men like this guy need to move to an all inclusive 55+ community where they don't have to encounter children who are going to set them off with any behaviorial infractions.
I disagree with him being arrested. And if it were me on the jury I would vote "not guilty."
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Old 05-05-2012, 11:44 AM
jjenny jjenny is offline
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What if it had been a newborn baby at the hospital, rather than a cat? Would that change the opinion of those aghast at the man's actions? I feel the man was completely with in his rights - he told the child no, in front of the mother, who admits she couldn't control the kid, and the child persisted.

To those who suggested the man just move the cat - why not have the mother move the child? The mother admitted the child have control issues - why is the child even there? All kinds of dangerous distractions in a VET's office. Mother's lucky the uncontrollable child didn't get in to more trouble.
What if this child wants to pet a large dog next time, while this dog is in an aggravated state after having some procedure done? That should give his mother something to think about. Instead of getting this man arrested, maybe she should be learning how to control her child.
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