Trial Thread - 9 May 2012 Judge to give Jury Instructions

[CarrieBean]

Originally Posted by OhSoCurious

And that's exactly how it works when providing links from the Crown. Some say "not really proof" IMO.

With so many lies from all directions, it seems difficult to prove much without reasonable doubt. JMO MOO IMO

That link you posted is nothing but the garbage the defense pulled out of their asses, lol.

Nothing to support any of it. Nothing to support anything they've said.

Plenty of evidence on Tori's side. Thankfully.

The 2nd paragraph in the link you posted

"But at no point in his closing argument did defence lawyer Dirk Derstine explain what the drug debt involved, nor say why Ms. McClintic chose to implicate Mr. Rafferty, her co-accused and former boyfriend."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2424833/

[otto]

Originally Posted by OhSoCurious

here is your requested link, there are dozens more but I am tired:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2424833/

Convicted killer Terri-Lynne McClintic kidnapped eight-year-old Victoria (Tori) Stafford to resolve a “drug debt” and beat the child to death with a hammer she’d bought that day, while Michael Rafferty was just a reluctant dupe who got sucked into the murderous scheme, Mr. Rafferty’s murder trial was told Monday.

MR's defence lawyer echoed initial comments made by MR to police during the early stages of the investigation into missing child Victoria Stafford ... "Convicted killer Terri-Lynne McClintic kidnapped eight-year-old Victoria (Tori) Stafford to resolve a “drug debt” and beat the child to death with a hammer she’d bought that day, while Michael Rafferty was just a reluctant dupe who got sucked into the murderous scheme, Mr. Rafferty’s murder trial was told Monday.

But at no point in his closing argument did defence lawyer Dirk Derstine explain what the drug debt involved, nor say why Ms. McClintic chose to implicate Mr. Rafferty, her co-accused and former boyfriend."

...

"Mr. Derstine wants to persuade the jurors that Ms. McClintic was “the engine” of all that happened on that day in April, 2009, and that no sexual assault ever took place."

...

"Mr. Rafferty had a knife in his car and had no reason to buy a hammer, he said."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2424833/

[otto]

Originally Posted by OhSoCurious

Unfortunately TLM lies for convenience and circumstance. She lies for the outcome she wants and needs for each situation. That is the saddest part of trying to find justice for Tori.

JMO MOO IMO

If we believe that TLM offered to take the kidnapping victim into the Tim Hortons, do we also believe her when she said that MR raped Victoria?

[CarrieBean]

Originally Posted by OhSoCurious

Unfortunately TLM lies for convenience and circumstance. She lies for the outcome she wants and needs for each situation. That is the saddest part of trying to find justice for Tori.

JMO MOO IMO

And why is it that Michael Rafferty lies, do you believe?

[OhSoCurious]

Originally Posted by otto

MR's defence lawyer echoed initial comments made by MR to police during the early stages of the investigation into missing child Victoria Stafford ... "Convicted killer Terri-Lynne McClintic kidnapped eight-year-old Victoria (Tori) Stafford to resolve a “drug debt” and beat the child to death with a hammer she’d bought that day, while Michael Rafferty was just a reluctant dupe who got sucked into the murderous scheme, Mr. Rafferty’s murder trial was told Monday.

But at no point in his closing argument did defence lawyer Dirk Derstine explain what the drug debt involved, nor say why Ms. McClintic chose to implicate Mr. Rafferty, her co-accused and former boyfriend."

...

"Mr. Derstine wants to persuade the jurors that Ms. McClintic was “the engine” of all that happened on that day in April, 2009, and that no sexual assault ever took place."

...

"Mr. Rafferty had a knife in his car and had no reason to buy a hammer, he said."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2424833/

The onus is not on him to do so. JMO MOO IMO

[otto]

Originally Posted by OhSoCurious

And that's exactly how it works when providing links from the Crown. Some say "not really proof" IMO.

With so many lies from all directions, it seems difficult to prove much without reasonable doubt. JMO MOO IMO

The defence lawyer has thrown out a claim about a "drug debt", but offered nothing to support that claim. That means it's nothing more than a wild idea cooked up by his client and presented in court by the lawyer. The defence lawyer can only present what his client has told him ... whether it makes sense or not. The "drug debt" makes no sense. Who owed money and how is that related to the victim?

[otto]

Originally Posted by OhSoCurious

Yes TLM killed Tori. MOO IMO JMO

Two people were involved in the abduction, rape and murder of Victoria. TLM is an admitted murderer. Good for her. It's too bad the other person that participated in the events is trying to weasel out of it ... but that doesn't mean he will succeed.

[CarrieBean]

Originally Posted by OhSoCurious

The onus is not on him to do so. JMO MOO IMO

Right, but it is his duty to defend his client. He hasn't done that. He's thrown out stories that have no backbone. That's all he could do.

I'd be surprised if everyone on the defence council wasn't cringing inside while they had to defend him.

[otto]

Originally Posted by OhSoCurious

The onus is not on him to do so. JMO MOO IMO

True. The defence closing arguments can be fiction, but quoting that fiction does not mean that the fiction is fact. The defence lawyer was clearly instructed by his client to put forth a drug debt remark so, even though there is no evidence to support it, that's what the defence lawyer did. That's what he's paid to do.

There is no evidence that there was a drug debt or that this excuse from MR has any truth.

[otto]

"Rafferty, 31, has pleaded not guilty and his lawyer Dirk Derstine spent the previous day casting McClintic, already serving a life sentence for the murder, as the lone homicidal “engine” behind Tori’s slaying. He refloated his vague theory that she snatched the little girl to exact a ransom for a drug debt and that Rafferty had no idea what was going on when his former girlfriend asked him to wait in the car while she picked Tori up from Oliver Stephens Public School.

But rather than standing by in horror later as McClintic struck the child repeatedly with a hammer, motivated only by her own demons, Gowdey told jurors Rafferty was actually the mastermind behind the ugly tableau. That this was never about an unsubstantiated drug debt, this was about a man who wanted to rape a child."

http://m.torontosun.com/2012/05/08/c...r?noimage=true

[otto]

"During cross-examination, Derstine suggested McClintic abducted Stafford over a drug debt, offered her sexually to Rafferty – who refused – then she brutally murdered the girl – a narrative he continued with during his final argument."

http://www.globalnews.ca/rafferty+de...365/story.html

So the defence theory is that TLM owed MR money because of a drug debt and instead of repaying the money, she abducted a young girl.

[Kittymama]

Originally Posted by otto

"During cross-examination, Derstine suggested McClintic abducted Stafford over a drug debt, offered her sexually to Rafferty – who refused – then she brutally murdered the girl – a narrative he continued with during his final argument."

http://www.globalnews.ca/rafferty+de...365/story.html

So the defence theory is that TLM owed MR money because of a drug debt and instead of repaying the money, she abducted a young girl.

No, I don't think that's what the defence was saying. Your version might actually have made slightly more coherent sense. IMO, the defence is saying TLM abducted Tori because of a drug debt owed to her by someone in Tori's family ('cause they totally haven't been victimized enough, or anything). And then she just offered her to Rafferty sexually because, hey, what the hell, right?

Their "theory," however, is very vague, and doesn't make much sense. Especially since there's no proof of it.

JMO. I miss the cow.

[brighidin]

Originally Posted by otto

"During cross-examination, Derstine suggested McClintic abducted Stafford over a drug debt, offered her sexually to Rafferty – who refused – then she brutally murdered the girl – a narrative he continued with during his final argument."

http://www.globalnews.ca/rafferty+de...365/story.html

So the defence theory is that TLM owed MR money because of a drug debt and instead of repaying the money, she abducted a young girl.

Not exactly.
The unsubstantiated speculation is that TM and her partner JG ripped off TLM's mother and so TLM abducted Tori.

All of this was going on unbeknownst to MR, that poor innocent dupe.

TLM testified that TM didn't owe her money. TM testified that her partner had at one point ripped off a dealer but that it wasn't TLM's mother. Thus, based on the evidence presented, and the MSM reports, there is no evidence of a drug debt abduction.

[sillybilly]

Forgive me for taking the thread in a bit of a different direction, but it's getting late and i wanted to respond to a couple of heartfelt comments from earlier today.

Originally Posted by Heliotrope

… The sun is never really going to rise for them again.

<rsbm>

Having lost both of my children (NOT under the same horrific circumstances as Tori), this sentence struck me as particularly poignant. There truly are no words to express it all, so forgive my rambling, seemingly unrelated thoughts.

By way of Hope though, Heliotrope … the sun does rise again some day … it may be a long time down the road, and when you aren’t expecting it. But maybe it is a different sun than others see. There truly are no words, and only those who have been there can begin to understand.

I met a stranger the other day .. she had lost her son last year due to a tragic, freak accident. We had a connection that two strangers would not normally have … hearts joined together with a feeling and a knowledge that no others can be expected to feel or understand. As we talked about the loss of her son and the loss of my son and daughter, I became very aware of a strange atmosphere/aura around us but I said nothing. Within a minute or so, she abruptly said to me “Do you feel it?”. I knew what she meant, so it was very real to both of us. Perhaps it was something from beyond, or perhaps it was something that can only be experienced by hearts that know or share a certain pain of life. I don’t know for sure … but I don’t question it anymore. Maybe some hearts are meant to hurt so we can help others whose pain is even more recent, more raw, more horrific than our own.

And to our cute-as-a-bug robynhood who says

Originally Posted by robynhood

...and I am sure their heart will never be the SAME as they lost their beloved daughter ...

<rsbm>

It is true, robynhood … the heart can never be the same, but it can eventually become mended in a fashion. Some stitching jobs better than others I guess. And just maybe, in my own son’s words “maybe our hearts have huge holes put in them to make room for what is going to be poured back in”.

I wish Tara and Rodney and all Tori’s loved ones love and tremendous strength, and the hope that some day those awful gaping holes in their hearts will be filled more by the memories of their darling daughter Tori than the horror that she or they never should have known.

[Tahorn]

The saddest part of this case is that a little girl lost her life and an entire nation is in mourning.

The unfortunate thing about this case is that the path to the truth was paved in lies and deception.

For me the circumstantial evidence does not prove MR intended to kidnap VS or rape and kill her on it's own, without TLM testimony that same evidence could collaborate another scenario...and with that it would give me reasonable doubt.

I DO NOT believe MR is innocent but I am not sure the crown has proven their case.

[Kittymama]

Originally Posted by sillybilly

Forgive me for taking the thread in a bit of a different direction, but it's getting late and i wanted to respond to a couple of heartfelt comments from earlier today.

<rsbm>

I wish Tara and Rodney and all Tori’s loved ones love and tremendous strength, and the hope that some day those awful gaping holes in their hearts will be filled more by the memories of their darling daughter Tori than the horror that she or they never should have known.

<rsbm>

I'm so sorry for your losses, sillybilly. No parent should have to lose their child/children.

The thing with Tori that upsets me, besides her horrific last hours, is that Tara, Rodney, and all the other family members and friends of that little girl shouldn't have to get by on just memories of her. Because of these two despicable excuses for human beings, there will never be any more of those memories made. That breaks my heart.

[LadyL]

Originally Posted by snoofer

I hope every single person from that town goes to the sentencing. A solidarity to say...not in our town, not to our children! MOO Solidarity for the Stafford family as well. JMO

35,000 people at the sentencing?

that'd be an amazing sight to see

I don't live in Woodstock but I'll be there provided I have enough notice so I can book off work

I'm thinking of making a special sign but they won't let me in the courthouse with it (but I'll probably have to be there by 5 a.m. to get a parking spot anyway)

[LadyL]

Originally Posted by snoofer

Was just thinking. There are going to be lots of people skulking around this story for a profit. Who can also forget Clifford Olsen's hand in profitting from murder. I hope that RS and TM and their family will get together to tell their story and Tori's story with a seasoned professional author and use the proceeds for Darren's education and for a foundation to deal with missing children or educating children, or maybe to set up scholarships for victim's families. I would hate to see anyone else profit from this tragedy to to tell a less than truthful version of events. As hard as it would be for them; I truly hope they do that. MOO Maybe someone like Polly Klaas's father could recommend. Another idea would be to approach one of the universities to find an English Lit major working towards his PHD and get a student to write the story with their input. That would be a trustworthy way to get their story told professionally. MOO

Anyhow, I myself won't be reading any book that doesn't have RS name on it. MOO Or watching any movie on this story that doesn't have RS as collaborator. JMO

there's probably 5 or 6 books already written ... waiting for the ending paragraphs and they'll be on the shelves within weeks

[swedie]

Hmm something just struck me while reading yesterday's post regarding TLM's possible connection to gangs. The woman who TLM assaulted this year in prison happened on January 30th of this year. How ironic TLM made the confession to a counsellor she was the one who beat Tori. A change in her testimony from what she originally claimed. The connection to her change of plea and the assaulting of this other inmate are to me, very compelling. And how bizarre that the details for the assault have not come to light in the MSM. Makes me believe once the jury is in deliberations we may be privy as to why this altercation took place. I find it rather telling in this report MR's name would come into play. MOO

Also from what I understand, the whole TLM and gang affiliation thing; as far as I know, gangs do not typically go around murdering young innocent children. MO it is really irrelevant in Tori's case whether TLM was a gang member or not. She is wicked with or without the being in a gang. AND to add to that, if she was a gang member, why didn't she get her homies to help her out in the collection of a drug debt? (which has been quashed anyhow) but some still may be stuck on that theory. MOO. Realistically, is there a Crips gang in Woodstock? This sorta makes me want to lol because I wonder how many serious members they would have in that big town. Two; TLM and another wannabe.

Snow said he could not discuss the details of the alleged jail assault or what triggered the altercation. Lawyers will be reviewing the Crown's evidence, meeting with McClintic and then will decide what plea to enter, he added.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...er-prison.html

[swedie]

Originally Posted by snoofer

I cannot imagine that a murder trial if the defendant is innocent, did not have one word about what he did that day, where he went, what happened those hours in his car, what conversations took place, no piece of tangible evidence to hold in your hand...nota, zero, zilch! I have never followed a trial before so maybe this is par for the course. But to me it seems bizarre. It tells me that nothing could be offered during that time of the hours in the car that could help him show his innocence. IMO That is damning. Of course he does not have to proove his innocence but with the overwhelming evidence crown had to proove his guilt....the defense mighta wanted to get busy on getting evidence to show innocence if they had any. MOO

It's way too late now for the defense. They had their spot in the limelight and IMHO blew it. I felt that way very early on in the trial according to Derstine's lack of cross examining questions. He had nothing, absolutely nothing to show reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors. I and I can safely assume others saw his lack of direction. Giving the fact Derstine had three years to prepare based on the evidence and witnesses who were going to be called upon to provide, he couldn't come up with some questions to raise that reasonable doubt?! Something, anything?

What really disappointed me was many of us had been anticipating the spun story! He couldn't even provide that for pity sakes. All he could do was what we predicted and dreaded; make TLM look like the evil villianous and MR the innocent dupe. Her being the mastermind and influenced by her choice of music and reflected in her writings. MOO

WOWZERS I AM SO IMPRESSED WITH GOWDEY'S CLOSING ARGUMENT. HE IS AMAZING AND BROUGHT OUT SO MANY THEORIES BACK WITH EVIDENCE TO DRILL HOME THE TRUTH...MR IS GUILTY AS ACCUSED. MOO
I have eternal gratitude for LE and the lawyers, everyone who all work so diligently and hard to bring about the results which came out today through the voice of Mr. Gowdey. He did a spectacular job represent society as a whole, to bring about justice and hope back into our hearts.

JUSTICE SWEET TORI! IT'S JUST HOURS AWAY, I FEEL IT IN MY HEART AND SOUL. I PRAY FOR STRENGTH FOR THE MACDONALD AND RAFFERTY FAMILIES. I HOPE THIS BRINGS THEM ONE STEP CLOSER TO SOME PEACE IN THEIR LIVES. <3

[snoofer]

Originally Posted by LadyL

there's probably 5 or 6 books already written ... waiting for the ending paragraphs and they'll be on the shelves within weeks

you are probably right Lady L. :O(

[swedie]

Originally Posted by OhSoCurious

Yes TLM killed Tori. MOO IMO JMO

The Crown raised some pretty seriously thought provoking theories Wednesday to consider why TLM changed her story about who actually hit Tori with the hammer. Also some deny TLM told the truth at any time during the trial, except where she confessed to being the one who killed Tori. I find that very interesting.

So we have proof MR told a huge amount of lies also and most certainly in his interview with LE on May 15th and by all the women (his victims) who parade up to the witness stand to testify about his chronic lies. TLM has not had any problems with letting people know where they stand with her. She's in your face sorta gal where MR is so secretive and cunning it's truly scary now that we know he was not someone many people thought he was. That is true psychopath art form. TLM doesn't show these same traits. She knows right from wrong and doesn't blame others and lies all the time in which MR does. MOO

[swedie]

Originally Posted by LadyL

there's probably 5 or 6 books already written ... waiting for the ending paragraphs and they'll be on the shelves within weeks

I for one will be very picky then about which book I chose based on the author. AND hopefully the author will donate proceeds to some worthwhile organization. MOO

[myzzy]

Good morning everyone