WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3

Status
Not open for further replies.
... is there really any solid evidence in this case?



#1 Flight path...unsure
.....

The list goes on for ages, it's a wonder they got the number of the flight correct! I know 99 shot me down about the stairs, but I find it hard to believe that the stairs "slamed shut" after Cooper left, the stairs measure 36" x 124" that is approx 27 S/F not counting the curved backing on the stairs that would repel wind loads, the stairs weigh 550 lbs! that's a lot of weight for such a small wind load in order to slam it above the line of gravity, I could be way off like 99 say's, but when you look at the big picture here in this case, what has been right?

Mr..45,

There is a bit of solid evidence. But there is not concensus of the masses on it. The masses like to talk about it but can't understand it, or won't put in the effort to do so. Much of the evidence is technical, so it takes technical forensics to understand it. Much of the info is right. The problem is sorting out the right from the other.

You're a little light on the stair width. The outer skin extends out a bit past the actuator struts ("snubbers"). And, did you have some way of determining that the wind load was small?

One thing you need to keep in mind about the "slamming shut" is that the position of the stairs with nobody out on them was only down a little bit. The wind load was enough to keep the end of the stairs only about a foot down below horizontal and two feet below the closed position. So the stairs didn't have far to go above the rest position to be closed.

I've never come across the weight of the stairs. How do you know the 550, and does it include the weight from the struts and actuator arm? If it does, we could get a pretty close estimate of what the drag and lift were since we have info on angles with and without Cooper test weight out at the end of the stair. From this we could estimate the speed at which the stair closed.

I've done the load & force analysis, but I think I just estimated that the stair weight would be about as much as the weight of a man. I'll dig it out.
 
I will have to find the site again, I looked for a long time trying to find the weight of the stairs, I don't recall them mentioning the arms or struts, I will search again this week.

the measurements were taken from this PDF, I screen shot the pics for display.

http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/?action=view&current=stairs.jpg

http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/?action=view&current=stairwayjack.jpg

not referring to a small wind load itself, I was talking about the actual staircase being rather small for the 170 + - knot wind load, I watched that ridiculous movie The Pursuit Of DB Cooper, the start shows the plane with the flaps down and the gear, the stuntman jumps off and the stairs did not close, 99 told me the plane was going much slower but if the flaps were down, how much slower could it go without stalling?
 
I have not really went into the facts behind McCoy's jump, I found this website which tells a different story about the action of the stairs, I could be way off like 99 said, but I feel something is wrong with the reports and findings about what the FBI states, call it a hunch.

While McCoy was exiting the airliner, onboard, the captain noticed a distinct change in the sound level at 11:27 p.m. There was a very loud drone inside the cabin and cockpit when traveling depressurized with the aft door open, yet there was a moment when that drone increased and then decreased momentarily. The captain suspected that the aft stairs hanging down into the jet’s airstream were not fully extended, but when McCoy stepped onto them, his weight dropped them more fully into the wind. This increased the noise, which suddenly decreased as the stairs bounced up (and then back down again) when McCoy stepped off.

At this point, the captain repeatedly called for the hijacker on the intercom. There was no answer. After a few moments, one of the crew members ventured into the dark cabin, only to find it empty.

http://parachutistonline.com/feature/skyjacker%E2%80%94-richard-mccoy-jr-story-part-2
 
I will have to find the site again, I looked for a long time trying to find the weight of the stairs, I don't recall them mentioning the arms or struts, I will search again this week.

Thanks. I would appreciate the site URL. The 550 would help even if we can't find something about the stuff that was attached to it. We could just estimate the other stuff, which I'm sure would be well under the weight of the stair itself.

the measurements were taken from this PDF, I screen shot the pics for display.

Yes. From one of the few documents Boeing still has on their site re. the 727.

I watched that ridiculous movie The Pursuit Of DB Cooper, the start shows the plane with the flaps down and the gear, the stuntman jumps off and the stairs did not close, 99 told me the plane was going much slower but if the flaps were down, how much slower could it go without stalling?

He was all wet about the reason. The stairs would not have rebounded on the hijacked flight if they had been dropped as the stairs normally were. The movie shot involved dropping the stair in the normal way, which does not allow the stairs to rebound. The way it was done in the hijack damages the stair system, and can't even be done these days on a 727 because the controls have been changed since the hijack.

A special way was used for the hijack. The way to do it was not known by NWA or any of the crew before that night. They got info from Boeing and figured out a way that they thought would be safest for the crew. They sent the info to the crew when the flight was on the ground at SEATAC. 305 at one point then said something like "We've been looking at the procedure you sent out. Will the stair drop enough for him to get out?"

Some have suggested that Coop having trouble dropping the stairs or needing Tina to help indicates that Coop didn't really know much about the plane. It does no such thing. Coop didn't know how to drop the stair the way NWA wanted him to do it, and neither did Tina or any of the crew or anyone at NWA until that night. It is very likely that there was some problem doing it as NWA directed, because NWA had not been able to check out the procedure ahead of time as any airline does with any procedure before actually applying it.
 
.....
...There was a very loud drone inside the cabin and cockpit when traveling depressurized with the aft door open, yet there was a moment when that drone increased and then decreased momentarily. The captain suspected that the aft stairs hanging down into the jet’s airstream were not fully extended, but when McCoy stepped onto them, his weight dropped them more fully into the wind. This increased the noise, which suddenly decreased as the stairs bounced up (and then back down again) when McCoy stepped off.....

All consistent. Some engine noise while the stair is hanging down a little, increasing when weight on the stair increases the opening size, decreasing when he bailed and the stair rebounded up, and quickly returning to the way it had started (stair down only a bit).
 
How did Cooper damage the stairs? are you talking about from the release stage?
 
All consistent. Some engine noise while the stair is hanging down a little, increasing when weight on the stair increases the opening size, decreasing when he bailed and the stair rebounded up, and quickly returning to the way it had started (stair down only a bit).

Makes sense, it's just the fact of not reading anything about noises coming from 305, they only mentioned getting pressure readings, the pilots on 855 said the noise was loud, I found it strange that 305 didn't mention it.
 
How did Cooper damage the stairs? are you talking about from the release stage?

The uplock roller on each side out near the end of the stair was sheared off as it was designed to do when the pneumatic emergency opener was actuated. It's likely the claw (on the latch mechanism) that engaged each roller was also broken, as well as maybe the lever arm each is on. The uplock shearing was from using the pneumatic emergency opener. The other would be from the claws not being fully opened before the pneumatic was activated.
 
Makes sense, it's just the fact of not reading anything about noises coming from 305, they only mentioned getting pressure readings, the pilots on 855 said the noise was loud, I found it strange that 305 didn't mention it.

Have you found any info as to whether or not the cockpit door was open in either of the two cases? Or, if an intercom might have been left on in back? And, the logged communications disappeared in the time frame of interest.
 
Have you found any info as to whether or not the cockpit door was open in either of the two cases? Or, if an intercom might have been left on in back? And, the logged communications disappeared in the time frame of interest.


It's my understanding the doors were closed in both cases, the stewardess open the door and went thru the cabin and found McCoy missing. McCoy bailed at 16,000 feet.
 
are you sure about that much damage? here is a pic of the stairs down in reno.

....

here are the stairs after the FBI was done.

Yes, I am sure of it. The pic of the stair in Reno is not clear enough to see whether or not the roller is still there. The other one is not of "after the FBI was done." It is pic of before the Jan 6 re-enactment flight, for which the uplock rollers had been replaced but the stair was rigged to be free-flapping when dropped. Really wasn't a lot of damage. Easily repaired in a day.
 
ok, understood, you speaking of damage to the upper carriage part of the stairs, not visible in the pic correct?
 
It's my understanding the doors were closed in both cases, the stewardess open the door and went thru the cabin and found McCoy missing. McCoy bailed at 16,000 feet.

Any idea where you got the understanding that the door was shut during the cooper flight? One person has said that a crew member said they didn't feel any pressure pulse, so I've wondered why that would be.
 
ok, understood, you speaking of damage to the upper carriage part of the stairs, not visible in the pic correct?

The damage to the stair itself would be visible if you could get a clear close-up of the lower end of the stair, near where the strut attaches. That would be uplock roller being gone or maybe just hanging "by a nail." The other damage would be to the mechanism up inside the fuselage that normally latches onto the rollers.
 
Any idea where you got the understanding that the door was shut during the cooper flight? One person has said that a crew member said they didn't feel any pressure pulse, so I've wondered why that would be.


This is from the FBI website on McCoy

Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr. - Aircraft Hijacking

Certain names in the following description are fictitious names to protect peoples' identities.


Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr.
Fourteen year-old Peter Fanning (fictitious name) of Provo, Utah, made a surprising discovery. Lying in front of him, beside a steel culvert, was what he thought might be a parachute pack. He brought the strange object to his father who was replacing a flat tire on the family car a short distance away. The father notified the local sheriff of their find after returning home that afternoon.

It was soon learned that the Fannings had stumbled upon one of the four parachutes furnished to a lone gunman who had commandeered a passenger plane on April 7, 1972, in the Colorado skies.

United Airlines Flight 855, a Boeing 727 en route from Newark, New Jersey, to Los Angeles, California, with 85 passengers and a crew of six, had resumed flight after a Denver, Colorado, stopover.

Approximately 20 minutes after takeoff, at 5:18 p.m., a male passenger was observed in his seat holding a hand grenade.

For more information:

- Related Story
A stewardess, notified of the situation, immediately advised the captain. An off-duty pilot known to be on board as a passenger was requested to discreetly walk around and assess the situation only to have the person in question draw a pistol as he approached. The gunman handed over a sealed envelope, labeled "hijack instructions," and stated, "give this envelope to the girl and have her take it to the captain." A stewardess complied, and the off-duty pilot returned to his seat.



The stream of events had transpired so quickly that most passengers were unaware of the threat. Captain William Olinsky (fictitious name) discussed the matter with some crew members and decided to land at nearby Grand Junction, Colorado, where he would radio for law enforcement assistance on the ground. Olinsky then announced over the public address system that the aircraft was experiencing a "minor mechanical problem" and would land shortly.

The envelope with the hijack instructions was then opened by the captain. Inside were two typed pages of highly detailed directions, a hand grenade pin, and a bullet. The "instructions" required Olinsky to land at San Francisco International Airport, and park at "Runway 19 left." There, he was to follow certain procedures which designated the number of persons allowed near the plane at one time, and the distance from the aircraft that all vehicles other than those containing fuel were to be kept. In addition, the hijacker demanded $500,000 in cash, four parachutes, and the return of all written or typed directions given during the course of the flight.

The crew decided to comply and notified San Francisco of the hijacking and intended landing. A flight crew member announced to the passengers that the Grand Junction airport could not handle the "necessary repairs" after all, and it would be necessary to divert to San Francisco. From this point on, normal operations continued on-board.
In consideration of the safety of all aboard Flight 855, United Air Lines officials decided to meet the demands upon the plane's landing at San Francisco. Two flight bags loaded with cash and four parachutes were delivered to the plane. The hijacker, who had assumed command on touchdown, gave up his baggage check and had his luggage brought aboard. Fuel trucks hurriedly filled the plane's tanks with thousands of gallons of jet fuel. After seeing the completion of his written directions, some three hours after the plane had parked, the gunman released the passengers and one of the stewardesses. He then ordered the rest of the crew into the cockpit and took a position in the rear of the aircraft.
The hijacker then used the intercom to summon a stewardess. He gave her another set of flight instructions, telling the pilot to take off towards the east, climb to 16,000 feet, and fly precisely at 200 mph on a course that would overpass several specific Utah communities. The messages, now hand-printed, between hijacker and pilot were sent with increasing frequency, always using the stewardess as a courier. The cabin was ordered depressurized, and the gunman warned that if any pursuit planes were spotted he would detonate a hidden explosive device after he had jumped, before the plane could be landed.

The hijacker opened his luggage and covered the peephole between the cockpit and cabin. Observed by Second Officer Floyd Smith (fictitious name) through a slight space under the cockpit door, the hijacker quickly put on a jumpsuit, helmet, and parachute. Once he had shut off the cabin lights to better view the ground, the gunman demanded to be kept abreast of wind, ground, and air speeds; altimeter settings; and sky conditions.


http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/history/famous-cases/richard-floyd-mccoy
 
not that I haven't beat this into the ground already, here is the video I made a while back, don't know if you seen it posted on DZ.

I'm pretty sure I didn't notice it there. Demonstrates a lack of something you need to know:

There have been umpteen manufactured versions of the 727. Every unit ever manufactured has been modified starting within a few weeks of coming off the line. To understand what happened in late '71 you have to look at info about what -100 series 727s were like then. I had the luck to find a '68/'69 vintage flight manual for TWA 727s. It had info distinguishing between TWA's -100s, -100Cs and -200s. And 377 posted airstair info about World Airways -100c series, effective in the late 70's. His manual includes detailed schematics in addition to all the stuff in my TWA manual. I have a list of air worthiness directives about modifications to the airstair systems in those early years. There were many.
 
Any idea where you got the understanding that the door was shut during the cooper flight? One person has said that a crew member said they didn't feel any pressure pulse, so I've wondered why that would be.

Actually I'm only finding that he told Tina to go to the cockpit and close the first class curtains, you may be correct, still checking.
 
Actually I'm only finding that he told Tina to go to the cockpit and close the first class curtains, you may be correct, still checking.

I'm pretty sure that's all I've seen as well. One would think they would leave the cockpit door open if they had the curtain closed. How would coop have known?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
113
Guests online
2,558
Total visitors
2,671

Forum statistics

Threads
592,179
Messages
17,964,675
Members
228,715
Latest member
hannahdunnam
Back
Top