Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

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I do know that the discussion needs to stay on topic, if Shannan died by accident and not about writing books. I would hate to see the thread pulled. Tak and IMO
 
hawkshaw said:
Your post regarding the methods used by the SK to dump bodies tends to support my theory about it not being a serial killer. I was pretty much of the same opinion where you how a SK disposes of the bodies.

I just knew this without scientific proof or research. I just didn't offer my opinion because I couldn't prove it with factual information.

You said that GH? would have been unique if he dumped the four bodies so close to his home. SK's just don't do that because they fear they are going to get caught. Gacy is an animal of a different stripe. I suspect that in part, Gacy didn;t move the bodies from his home because he feared getting caught.

Other serial killers just leave the bodies where they are killed.

You mentioned that when SK;s move a body they will travel up to 100 miles away. If GH took the trouble to load the 4 bodies into vehicle and risk getitng caught, then why not go all the away and put the bodies far away from his home. The biggest risk factor is loading and unloading the bodies. If you are not driving a stolen car, or DWB, and are oberying the traffic laws you have almost no chance of being caught. Better to put as much distance between the bodies and your home as long as you are taking the trouble to transport the bodies.

A SK is a very special breed of person. I suspect they are paranoid of being caught. The operate in the dark. You could have a SK living next door to you and you would never know it.

Paranoia will cause you not to return to the scene of the crime. Is anyone waiting for me to return with my next victim. That is why I don;t believe the 4 bodies are the work of a serial killer. I don't believe he stored all the bodies to remove together in one place. He puts himself at too much risk of being caught for being out there too long.

The definition of a SK is of most importance. I believe most of us have the same view of what a real serial killer is: A person that kills for pleasure or some deep rooted mental condition. No, my friend, IMHO, this is the work of your run of the mill killer that kills for profit, not pleasure.

As a former homicide detective that has found many bodies in secluded places I still have the curiosity to say to myself when I pass one of those Oak Beach sites, gee, I wonder how many bodies they will find if they bothered to look. If I think that way what do you think your average killer thinks when he passes a dump site.
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Fascinating Hawkshaw, I know what the Green River Killer thought as he went back to his dump sites and had sex with his victims. I think he left them where they died, right? He was so perverted but yet seemed so normal LE didn't even have an inkling it was him when they first questioned him.

I don't know what you mean by 'killing for profit' or if it is true a 'run of the mill' killer isn't mental? I do respect you for all your knowledge however. I'd have to go back and read all of your posts but am wondering what you think happened to Shannan at her death? Do you think she was kept at another location, probably where she was killed, and then moved to where she was found?

The question in my mind is LE had done a lot of searching by air of that area where she was found and didn't sight her skeleton at that time. A poster wrote here she must have decomposed on site {fluid from the body would be traced in the dirt below the remains} as her bones looked to be in skeletal order. LE has not given out that info yet :banghead:

Could that mean her killer had her remains covered up after dumping her there and then went back and removed the covering when he wanted her to be found? So that would mean her death was no accident?
 
hawkshaw said:
Where did I ever say I knew something about writing? If I did know something about writing I would have written a thousand books by now. Talk about underhanded jabs.

Writing a novel can be just as exhaustive in research than a non fiction book. I remember reading a book by a very well published mystery writer, Mc something or other. He writes a few lines referring to the JFK assassination on 11/23. OK, I am a smart guy and pick that up right away. That one sentence is going to piece the whole story together in the last chapter. How could anyone his age, or even younger get that wrong? How could this man of the world get it wrong? How could his proof readers and edtiors get it wrong unless there was a hook into the story.

As it turned out the author got it wrong. And I never read another book by him again.

I worked with a guy that wrote a book about the Vatican Connection. The real writer wrote it and he just had his name down on the cover as a co-author. It was an interesting case I knew something about although I didn't work it. Started reading the book and thought it was well written. I guess I got to around page 40 and this BS artist tells us that this case was so important to DA Hogan (it was) and the DA had such high respect for the detective that Mr.Hogan often brought him to his office to discuss the case. It was ALL BS. This guy was tooting his horn and lying about the facts. I DID know Mr.Hogan intimately, or better than most. I knew him better than most, if not all of his high ranking assistants. I knew there was NO chance on this God's Earth that Mr.Hogan would ever think of calling this detective into his office for a one on one chat. Mr.Hogan had his own way of doing things. I put the book down and never read another word. If he would lie about that he would lie about most anything.

Writing a book and getting it published is no easy task no matter how many millions of books there are on the shelves. I think I could write a credible book if I had the patience to write such a book. At my age I know my pluses and minusus.
Click to expand...

I know, I know, there are millions out there who can write books ... have heard this before. :floorlaugh:
 
hawkshaw said:
Your post regarding the methods used by the SK to dump bodies tends to support my theory about it not being a serial killer. I was pretty much of the same opinion where you how a SK disposes of the bodies.

I just knew this without scientific proof or research. I just didn't offer my opinion because I couldn't prove it with factual information.

You said that GH? would have been unique if he dumped the four bodies so close to his home. SK's just don't do that because they fear they are going to get caught. Gacy is an animal of a different stripe. I suspect that in part, Gacy didn;t move the bodies from his home because he feared getting caught.

Other serial killers just leave the bodies where they are killed.

You mentioned that when SK;s move a body they will travel up to 100 miles away. If GH took the trouble to load the 4 bodies into vehicle and risk getitng caught, then why not go all the away and put the bodies far away from his home. The biggest risk factor is loading and unloading the bodies. If you are not driving a stolen car, or DWB, and are oberying the traffic laws you have almost no chance of being caught. Better to put as much distance between the bodies and your home as long as you are taking the trouble to transport the bodies.

A SK is a very special breed of person. I suspect they are paranoid of being caught. The operate in the dark. You could have a SK living next door to you and you would never know it.

Paranoia will cause you not to return to the scene of the crime. Is anyone waiting for me to return with my next victim. That is why I don;t believe the 4 bodies are the work of a serial killer. I don't believe he stored all the bodies to remove together in one place. He puts himself at too much risk of being caught for being out there too long.

The definition of a SK is of most importance. I believe most of us have the same view of what a real serial killer is: A person that kills for pleasure or some deep rooted mental condition. No, my friend, IMHO, this is the work of your run of the mill killer that kills for profit, not pleasure.

As a former homicide detective that has found many bodies in secluded places I still have the curiosity to say to myself when I pass one of those Oak Beach sites, gee, I wonder how many bodies they will find if they bothered to look. If I think that way what do you think your average killer thinks when he passes a dump site.
Click to expand...

Oh my, what a mess! Lets return this to facts. There are several patterns when it comes to body disposal:

- keeping them (like Gacy did till he ran out of space)

- clustered dump sites (by far the most common method for SKs, see Bundy, Ridway, or for example LISK)

- destroy the bodies, for example by dismembering them and put them in the normal trash or burn them.

- the occasional creative guy, who has ideas like let them drift down a river in empty oil barrels (see Rifkin for an example)

- let them lay were they fall

All those patterns exist and are known from other SK cases. What I never saw or heard of is one, who drives about 1 mi to open his own trophy garden. Now, that proves only LISK doesn't live in Oak Beach.
The idea, that this is the work of a hitman or fixer for some kind of merit in one aspect: Also hitmen have in the past stored several bodies in place. The reasons were, they thought that place would be safe (concrete in basements for example). However, at this point, the merit ends already. To make the idea stick, you need a connection between the victims. You don't have one. And to carefully wrap the victims in burlap and then try to measure out the exact distance from one victim to the next? That isn't a professional killer, that is another mindset.
 
Peter Brendt said:
Oh my, what a mess! Lets return this to facts. There are several patterns when it comes to body disposal:

- keeping them (like Gacy did till he ran out of space)

- clustered dump sites (by far the most common method for SKs, see Bundy, Ridway, or for example LISK)

- destroy the bodies, for example by dismembering them and put them in the normal trash or burn them.

- the occasional creative guy, who has ideas like let them drift down a river in empty oil barrels (see Rifkin for an example)

- let them lay were they fall

All those patterns exist and are known from other SK cases. What I never saw or heard of is one, who drives about 1 mi to open his own trophy garden. Now, that proves only LISK doesn't live in Oak Beach.
The idea, that this is the work of a hitman or fixer for some kind of merit in one aspect: Also hitmen have in the past stored several bodies in place. The reasons were, they thought that place would be safe (concrete in basements for example). However, at this point, the merit ends already. To make the idea stick, you need a connection between the victims. You don't have one. And to carefully wrap the victims in burlap and then try to measure out the exact distance from one victim to the next? That isn't a professional killer, that is another mindset.
Click to expand...

They're not equally spaced - that was bad reporting early on. It ranges from something like 200 to 800 feet apart. But yeah I mean the taunting phone calls don't strike me as someone who is a "professional." However, the two Manorville ones, with the removal of hands and tattoos does have a professional feel to them IMO. I would like to see us focus again at some point on the whole Brooklyn connection tho. So many players lead back there.
 
fieldnotes said:
They're not equally spaced - that was bad reporting early on. It ranges from something like 200 to 800 feet apart. But yeah I mean the taunting phone calls don't strike me as someone who is a "professional." However, the two Manorville ones, with the removal of hands and tattoos does have a professional feel to them IMO. I would like to see us focus again at some point on the whole Brooklyn connection tho. So many players lead back there.
Click to expand...

But the Manorville ones are an entirely different signature. And why would a professional posing a package with a torso on a pile of sticks? Or park the trash bags with another one near a hunter's path?
 
SCANDI, I really don't have a clue what happened to Shannan other than she died from other than natural causes.......or maybe she did.

I'll stay with the sex trade industry for now and let the others do their own thing. There is plenty of room in the pool for everyone. I will stick with the obvious for now. Shannan was a 'working girl' with many issues. The GB4 were of the same thread. They all wound up on the same beach area.

I DO know something about the investigators and how they can be helpless to pursue leads if it will scandalize their 'masters'. I have more than enough information to satisfy myself and others that what I say could be true.

The homicide detectives out there are as good as most detectives everywhere. Most want to go to work and get the job done without interference. Some times that isn't possible.
 
Peter Brendt said:
But the Manorville ones are an entirely different signature. And why would a professional posing a package with a torso on a pile of sticks? Or park the trash bags with another one near a hunter's path?
Click to expand...

Yes I'm agreeing it appears to be different- obviously since there 's dismemberment. But my only point was, aside from the staging, it retains some qualities of a professional job. And I have to say that personally I'm not completely convinced that JT was posed. I never saw the body and I don't trust press reports. It's possible she was just put there because of ease of placement. Maybe that pile of sticks made it easy to roll it out the car door or back of a truck or quad etc. I just don't know.

But maybe we should move this discussion to its appropriate thread.
 
OK, Swami,why don't you tell us who did it? Why do you think prostitutes are killed? Are you trying to suggest the fact that these woman are murdered has nothing to do with a prositute being available to be murdered?

I am not suggesting MY JB is killing the prostitutes, although I wouldn't leave him out of the suspect pool. What I am suggesting is there is a good possibilty the JB I write of may have been engaged with prostitutes that worked out of the same stable as the murdered prostitutes. If that is the case then it might be a serious hinderance to a proper investigation.
 
Hawk, I think you need to get in touch with the guy in the loud suits and fedora. <modsnip>
 
Some posts were moved to the rumor mill - because they are rumor.......

Please use the appropriate threads for the appropriate discussions.

Thanks,

Salem
 
hawkshaw said:
I am not suggesting MY JB is killing the prostitutes, although I wouldn't leave him out of the suspect pool. What I am suggesting is there is a good possibilty the JB I write of may have been engaged with prostitutes that worked out of the same stable as the murdered prostitutes. If that is the case then it might be a serious hinderance to a proper investigation.
Click to expand...

What reason is there to believe that "your" JB is involved, other than you not likeing him?

And if he did use prostitutes, so what, there are likely thousands in that general area, and hundreds of thousands of men who use their services. As far as I know there isn't a connection between the women other than their profession and the probabilty that they were killed by the same person. Nothing to suggest they were all part of a "stable".
 
Tugela said:
What reason is there to believe that "your" JB is involved, other than you not likeing him?

And if he did use prostitutes, so what, there are likely thousands in that general area, and hundreds of thousands of men who use their services. As far as I know there isn't a connection between the women other than their profession and the probabilty that they were killed by the same person. Nothing to suggest they were all part of a "stable".
Click to expand...

Cruz, Schaller, Terri, ... no name for MBB, Pak ... not one overlapping in the names of the persons who ran the business with those women. Which not only means, no prove, but rather proves, no connection. Unless sex trafficking organizations provide now every prostitute with their own pimp, pa, driver and SUV.
 
THE FAMILY OF SHANNAN GILBERT BELIEVES SHE COULD BE THE VICTIM OF A LONG ISLAND SERIAL KILLER AND THEIR ATTORNEY CHALLENGES THE POLICE THEORY ABOUT HER DEATH


&#8220;LONG ISLAND SERIAL KILLER&#8221;

SATURDAY, JUNE 23 (10:00 PM, ET/PT)

4a47a0db6e60853dedfcfdf08a5ca249.png
Click to expand...

-Source

Click Sneak peek: The Long Island Serial Killer - 48 Hours - CBS News for a sneak peak at the show.
 
Peter Brendt said:
I read it. It will be mildly interesting to see, how they reason it. Personally, I would rather look for "negligent manslaughter" or something and pin Brewer, but I guess, being killed by an SK is maybe less painful for the family?
Click to expand...

Exactly!!!!
Also did you notice the scene from the marker where SG was found, that there were pools of wate,r and all the muck. The clip was a bit too fast to get the full picture, but there WAS standing water. And depending on when the 48 Hrs piece was shot, it could me more or less full (of water) depending on the season. So drowning "could " be a reasonable COD theory.
 
nugzter said:
Exactly!!!!
Also did you notice the scene from the marker where SG was found, that there were pools of wate,r and all the muck. The clip was a bit too fast to get the full picture, but there WAS standing water. And depending on when the 48 Hrs piece was shot, it could me more or less full (of water) depending on the season. So drowning "could " be a reasonable COD theory.
Click to expand...

Yes and I bet the special isn't going to tell us any details about signs of decomposition in the soil or the layout of her bones (specifically her leg bones). If there was an influx of water there with the hurricane and with each of the nor'easter storms last year then this would explain how her pants and belongings could have simply drifted around the swamp away from her bones.

It is even possible that her remains may have been blown to that side of the wetlands during the hurricane. She could have died where her belongings were found.

The family and attorney might be right; maybe it is unlikely that she ran to her resting place with no shoes and no pants. They just aren't about to consider that perhaps she drifted there months or a year or more later.

We shall never know.
 
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