Surprising amount of Maddie's hair in car trunk

[harleysnana]

Originally Posted by kgeaux

I tend to agree with you, except that if she had the same t-shirt on on both occaisions, would that be enough for the dogs to hit on?

I'm not sure about her ... but I would wash the shirt I was wearing
if I had it on around a dead body!
Especially if I was going to take the same shirt on vacation!

[kgeaux]

Originally Posted by Jeana (DP)

I'm not sure. I don't think that its something that I've seen about in all of the cases that we've discussed. Sorry I can't be more help. I guess if this whole thing ever gets to trial, they'll have to get samples of the DNA of those deceased persons that Mrs. McCann claims to have been around so the DNA can be compared. That shouldn't be too difficult to do and it would at least answer the question on this one topic.

I don't think the dogs smell DNA. There's a transfer of the scent of chemicals released upon death, not physical material. At least that's what I've always thought. So there won't be any way to prove the scent came from someone else or from Maddie. Unless it's scientifically impossible for the scent to last that long on an article of clothing. That's why I'm so curious about this.....

Originally Posted by harleysnana

I'm not sure about her ... but I would wash the shirt I was wearing
if I had it on around a dead body!
Especially if I was going to take the same shirt on vacation!

I don't think washing removes the scent that the dog picks up on. She probably did wash it----IF she was wearing the same shirt! It's just a hypothetical I'm tossing about, trying to understand if there could be a reasonable explanation for the cadaver dogs to hit on Mrs. McCann, other than the possibility she was involved in Maddie's death.

[SleuthMom]

Originally Posted by Jeana (DP)

Because the DNA is from a DEAD person, not a live person. So, the transfer would have had to be after she died, which places her with one or both parents.

Thanks for the clarification Jeana. :) I am really confused about this DNA talk. So if the DNA is from a DEAD person, why then the parents are given the excuse that some of the toys and sandals of Madeleine where placed in the trunk and that's why the police may have found some DNA? :confused:

[BethInAK]

Originally Posted by kgeaux

Interesting. The initial article refereneced a "surprising" amount of MADDIE'S hair; not surprising enough to warrent an arrest, however.

even if there were HANDFULS of maddies hair in the trunk it doesn't show where the hair came from or how it got there unless the McCanns were the only people to use the car, so of course the hair isn't enough evidence to arrest anyone.

[Jeana (DP)]

Originally Posted by kgeaux

I don't think the dogs smell DNA. There's a transfer of the scent of chemicals released upon death, not physical material. At least that's what I've always thought. So there won't be any way to prove the scent came from someone else or from Maddie. Unless it's scientifically impossible for the scent to last that long on an article of clothing. That's why I'm so curious about this.....

THIS is what the dog hit on:

Cadaverine is a very intersting and useful chemical. It is C5H13N2 and looks like this: H2N/\/\/NH2. It is closely related to putrescine, spermine, and spermidine. It is called cadaverine because is comes from human corpses and is one of the chemicals that causes that awful odor. Cadaverine also contributes to the odors of urine and semen. Cadaverine is found in some plants in trace amounts as a result of stress on the plant. It is sold in some hunting supply stores as a poisonous liquid that attracts scavengers. It is also used as a tool for training search and rescue dogs.

Cadaverine is a completely unwholesome substance. Do NOT get it on anything you are going to keep, especially yourself. It DOES NOT wash off. It will be with you until your skin washes away. If you get it in someone's car (say in their heating system or injected into the rubber of their door windows) they will be forced to scrap the car. This is just one of the many uses of cadaverine! Most of cadaverine's uses, however, are to make things smell really really bad, so I won't explain any more here. I'm sure you'll be able to figure out some uses for it yourself.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=cadaverine

[Jeana (DP)]

Originally Posted by BethInAK

even if there were HANDFULS of maddies hair in the trunk it doesn't show where the hair came from or how it got there unless the McCanns were the only people to use the car, so of course the hair isn't enough evidence to arrest anyone.

Of course its not enough to arrest anyone, but it is very useful in determining where Maddy's body could have been placed before they found somewhere to leave her. I believe they can tell if the hair came out pre- or post-mortem (if I'm wrong, please someone set me straight). If the hair came from a dead Maddy, then the parents have a lot of explaining to do. Hair from a three-year old doesn't find it self under the carpet in the trunk of a rental car. This should be very easily explained if they're innocent.

[BethInAK]

Originally Posted by Jeana (DP)

Of course its not enough to arrest anyone, but it is very useful in determining where Maddy's body could have been placed before they found somewhere to leave her. I believe they can tell if the hair came out pre- or post-mortem (if I'm wrong, please someone set me straight). If the hair came from a dead Maddy, then the parents have a lot of explaining to do. Hair from a three-year old doesn't find it self under the carpet in the trunk of a rental car. This should be very easily explained if they're innocent.

I agree. I was just responding to the statement
"Interesting. The initial article refereneced a "surprising" amount of MADDIE'S hair; not surprising enough to warrent an arrest, however."

[Jeana (DP)]

Originally Posted by BethInAK

I agree. I was just responding to the statement
"Interesting. The initial article refereneced a "surprising" amount of MADDIE'S hair; not surprising enough to warrent an arrest, however."

I agree. However, we know that the hair alone wouldn't ever be enough for an arrest warrant; however, the evidence in its totality is what either will or won't get them arrested.

[Texana]

Thanks for the info about the cadaverine chemical, Jeana. It sounded like a stretch for the cadaver odor to get into Kate's clothing or shoes, particularly with medical procedures for contamination, etc--but I thought well, perhaps if she had a belt on under her doctor's jacket, and wore the same belt--etc.

However, you are right about the cadaver dogs hitting on the Scenic. The only reason the car was searched again and so thoroughly was the dogs' alerting.

PS Edited to add, I now have a new phobia, Cadaverineobia.

[SleuthMom]

What is the amount of hair needed to determine if it from a living or dead person? Does anyone know?

Because if the issue is that "there is not enough hair to test" as it was reported, I want to know if with minimal hair if is possible to determine that.

[brit1981]

No hair of madeleine's was found in the car, nor was any other identifiable material.

[SapphireSteel]

Originally Posted by brit1981

No hair of madeleine's was found in the car, nor was any other identifiable material.

This is not true. Identifiable material WAS found. There was not enough information to confirm the hair was definitely Madelines, conversely not enough information to confirm that it WASN'T.

Objects attributed to the motor vehicle Renault 'Scenic' (registration 59-DA-27)

286C/2007-CRL1 D Nail (human hand)
From this fragment of a nail from the finger of a human hand, a DNA result was obtained through the LCN technique which corresponded to Gerald McCann. In the same result an additional DNA component, unique and unconfirmed, was found that left no room for any other interpretation.


FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 7


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286C/2007-CRL2E Nail (hand)
From this fragment ... a DNA result was obtained through the LCN technique which corresponded to Kate Healy. In the same DNA result were found two more DNA components, one of which was not confirmed; these DNA components left no room for any other interpretation.

286C/2007-CRL10 Baggage compartment
This object comprised two sections of the baggage compartment of the Renault Scenic, the first being a baggage compartment lined with fabric with ventilation holes (designated in the UK laboratory as CRL/10(1)) and, the second a moulded plastic extension (designated in the laboratory as CRL/10(2)).

A mixed, low-level DNA result, appearing to be from at least three people, was obtained from the cellular material collected from the baggage compartment lined with fabric (286C/2007-CRL/10(1)) of the motor vehicle. That sample was submitted to tests to obtain DNA profiles through the LCN technique.

A DNA result through the LCN technique, which appeared to be from at least three persons, was obtained from the cellular material collected from the baggage compartment lined with fabric (286C/2007-CRL/10(1)). In my opinion, this result is too complex to make a meaningful interpretation.


FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 8


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The attempt to obtain a DNA profile from any cellular material collected from the plastic area on the baggage compartment (286C/2007-CRL /10(2)) was unsuccessful, because no DNA profile was obtained.

A mixed, low-level DNA result, that appeared to be from at least two persons, was obtained from a second area of the baggage compartment plastic (286C/2007-CRL /10(2)). This sample was submitted for tests to obtain DNA profiles through LCN.

A DNA result by complex LCN that appeared to be from at least three persons, was obtained from cellular material collected on the section of the baggage compartment 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. In my opinion, that result is too complex for a meaningful interpretation.

An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the car key. (286C/2007-CRL (12)).

My colleague, Andrew Palmer, submitted various hair collected from the Renault Scenic for tests, using tests for obtaining the DNA profile through the use of LCN. Those hairs were designated as 7B hair 1 and 7C hairs 7, 13 and 15. Attempts to obtain a DNA profile of each hair by LCN was unsuccessful, because no DNA profile was obtained by LCN, possibly due to there being an insufficient quantity of good quality DNA.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

[brit1981]

Sorry, I meant no material that could be identified was attribute dto madeleine. Although this is also true for the material that could not be attributed to a specific material.

The hair could have belonged to anyone. Yes it could have belonged to madeleine, but it could also have belonged to her sister, mother, aunts, mothers friends etc who all admit to being in the car.

[SapphireSteel]

Originally Posted by brit1981

Sorry, I meant no material that could be identified was attribute dto madeleine. Although this is also true for the material that could not be attributed to a specific material.

The hair could have belonged to anyone. Yes it could have belonged to madeleine, but it could also have belonged to her sister, mother, aunts, mothers friends etc who all admit to being in the car.

We now know that the hair has been "lost" by FSS Ltd.

It can no longer be subjected to further DNA scrutiny, or improved testing in the future, as it no longer exists.

:banghead: