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  #226  
Old 07-13-2012, 09:23 PM
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This is a double tragedy.

I have a friend (A) whose friend (B) immolated herself. It is an absolutely horrific way to die. B had actually driven herself to a garbage dump to do it. A now carries serious emotional pain every day because she didn't know B was suicidal, and feels incredible guilt and trauma knowing how lonely and agonising her friend's death was. B's other friends and family feel the same pain.

I'm sorry but I am full of compassion for this poor soul. The way she died is proof that she punished herself with shame and grief, far more than Nancy Grace or any of us could. It is an agonising, prolonged and horrific death and speaks volumes about self-hatred.

Yes she caused her baby to die because she was an alcoholic, but alcoholisim is a disease and should be treated as such. If this woman had've received some treatment before/during/after pregnancy the chances are both would still be alive.

Victimising this woman to death is not constructive, moral, Godly, or kind. We should be learning from our mistakes as a society, and taking steps to ensure that this sort of avoidable tragedy does not happen again. IMO it is a community failure and by demonising an ill woman we are ignoring our own roles in contributing to the tragedy by "turning a blind eye" when someone is in dire straits and needs help, as this lady so obviously was.
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  #227  
Old 07-13-2012, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
This is a double tragedy.

I have a friend (A) whose friend (B) immolated herself. It is an absolutely horrific way to die. B had actually driven herself to a garbage dump to do it. A now carries serious emotional pain every day because she didn't know B was suicidal, and feels incredible guilt and trauma knowing how lonely and agonising her friend's death was. B's other friends and family feel the same pain.

I'm sorry but I am full of compassion for this poor soul. The way she died is proof that she punished herself with shame and grief, far more than Nancy Grace or any of us could. It is an agonising, prolonged and horrific death and speaks volumes about self-hatred.

Yes she caused her baby to die because she was an alcoholic, but alcoholisim is a disease and should be treated as such. If this woman had've received some treatment before/during/after pregnancy the chances are both would still be alive.

Victimising this woman to death is not constructive, moral, Godly, or kind. We should be learning from our mistakes as a society, and taking steps to ensure that this sort of avoidable tragedy does not happen again. IMO it is a community failure and by demonising an ill woman we are ignoring our own roles in contributing to the tragedy by "turning a blind eye" when someone is in dire straits and needs help, as this lady so obviously was.
What a great comment! That's exactly how I see this situation. This woman should have been shown compassion and given help after her illness resulted in the death of her child.

If there were beheadings in the US, NG seems like the person that would be front and centre screaming for the blade to fall.
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  #228  
Old 07-13-2012, 09:58 PM
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FWIW, my opinion is that this woman set herself on fire because of the overwhelming guilt she felt for her role in her baby's death. I do not think that anything Nancy Grace said made her decide to die the most painful way posssible. I think that she felt that she deserved to die the most painful way possible as punishment.

PS: I think that the father should be held responsible for not protecting his baby son. Heck, I still feel that Andrea Yates' husband should have been charged in the deaths of his children for knowingly putting them in harms way and for continuing to produce children all the while knowing that Andrea Yates was very sick and a danger to her children.

PS Jr.: I do not hold Nancy Grace responsible for Trenton Duckett's mother's suicide either. She knew that she was going to be charged for his disappearance and most likely murder and took the coward's way out, IMO.
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  #229  
Old 07-13-2012, 10:09 PM
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....OR...his ACTION of just going on his way, and not taking the baby to it's crib killed the baby, as well.
No it didn't.
It didn't prevent it, but it didn't cause it.

The drunk mothers body on top of the baby caused it.

Unless he forced the alcohol down her throat then placed her passed out body on top of the baby, his actions did not cause the death.

Could he have done more to prevent it? I don't know.

But the cause of death was not "father went to bed".
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  #230  
Old 07-14-2012, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimberlyd125 View Post
No it didn't.
It didn't prevent it, but it didn't cause it.

The drunk mothers body on top of the baby caused it.

Unless he forced the alcohol down her throat then placed her passed out body on top of the baby, his actions did not cause the death.

Could he have done more to prevent it? I don't know.

But the cause of death was not "father went to bed".


If Dad had taken the child to his crib (after seeing Mom wasn't going to do it), his son would still be alive today.
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  #231  
Old 07-14-2012, 10:30 AM
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If Dad had taken the child to his crib (after seeing Mom wasn't going to do it), his son would still be alive today.
You are assuming there even was a crib. From reports linked in this thread, this mom often slept on the couch with the baby.

Was there a crib?
I don't think we have that information.
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  #232  
Old 07-14-2012, 08:29 PM
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I think the husband and all family members should be charged with negligence, endangering a child, failure to report (x the number of children). Can they test the baby for fetal alcohol syndrome? If the baby is found to have that charge them with accessory.

They had options. They could have filed an involuntary commitment for alcohol dependence and while she was in treatment the husband could have filed for divorce asking for full custody.

The very nerve of them to blame NG or anybody else.
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  #233  
Old 07-14-2012, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimberlyd125 View Post
You are assuming there even was a crib. From reports linked in this thread, this mom often slept on the couch with the baby.

Was there a crib?
I don't think we have that information.
If Dad had removed the child from sleeping beside the mother, the child would not have died as a result of the mother suffocating him. If Dad had acted when he saw that Mom was not going to, the child would still be alive today.
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  #234  
Old 07-14-2012, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by oh_gal View Post
If Dad had removed the child from sleeping beside the mother, the child would not have died as a result of the mother suffocating him. If Dad had acted when he saw that Mom was not going to, the child would still be alive today.
Maybe the child would be alive today. But not necessarily. Not if mom continued to drink a liter of vodka a day. There is a good chance that something else would have happened.

I am not defending the father. I think he should shoulder much of the responsibility, as he allowed her to keep the child on the couch while she was drunk and tired. He is culpable, imo.
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  #235  
Old 07-14-2012, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
This is a double tragedy.

I have a friend (A) whose friend (B) immolated herself. It is an absolutely horrific way to die. B had actually driven herself to a garbage dump to do it. A now carries serious emotional pain every day because she didn't know B was suicidal, and feels incredible guilt and trauma knowing how lonely and agonising her friend's death was. B's other friends and family feel the same pain.

I'm sorry but I am full of compassion for this poor soul. The way she died is proof that she punished herself with shame and grief, far more than Nancy Grace or any of us could. It is an agonising, prolonged and horrific death and speaks volumes about self-hatred.

Yes she caused her baby to die because she was an alcoholic, but alcoholisim is a disease and should be treated as such. If this woman had've received some treatment before/during/after pregnancy the chances are both would still be alive.

Victimising this woman to death is not constructive, moral, Godly, or kind. We should be learning from our mistakes as a society, and taking steps to ensure that this sort of avoidable tragedy does not happen again. IMO it is a community failure and by demonising an ill woman we are ignoring our own roles in contributing to the tragedy by "turning a blind eye" when someone is in dire straits and needs help, as this lady so obviously was.
This woman who suffered from alcoholism needed to WANT the help. Nobody could actually force her into sobriety. She had two DUI's in one month. Isn't that kind of a wake u call for a mother of four? If that didn't stop her, what was going to?
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  #236  
Old 07-14-2012, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
Maybe the child would be alive today. But not necessarily. Not if mom continued to drink a liter of vodka a day. There is a good chance that something else would have happened.

I am not defending the father. I think he should shoulder much of the responsibility, as he allowed her to keep the child on the couch while she was drunk and tired. He is culpable, imo.
I was speaking of that particular instance -- that particular night. Yes, something else could have happened a week later, but that could be said of any of us.
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  #237  
Old 07-15-2012, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimberlyd125 View Post
You are assuming there even was a crib. From reports linked in this thread, this mom often slept on the couch with the baby.

Was there a crib?
I don't think we have that information.
The dad had warned the mom about sleeping on the couch with the baby. If there was nowhere else to sleep, why warn her?
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  #238  
Old 07-15-2012, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
This woman who suffered from alcoholism needed to WANT the help. Nobody could actually force her into sobriety. She had two DUI's in one month. Isn't that kind of a wake u call for a mother of four? If that didn't stop her, what was going to?
Nancy Grace? Not really, just frustrated with NG's holier than thou attitude for ratings. She needs to get off her high horse and quit encouraging the public to be such harsh judges of people. She didn't cause this woman to commit suicide, but she encouraged all sorts of public outrage. Did any of that help this situation? Not at all. jmo
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  #239  
Old 07-15-2012, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
This is a double tragedy.

I have a friend (A) whose friend (B) immolated herself. It is an absolutely horrific way to die. B had actually driven herself to a garbage dump to do it. A now carries serious emotional pain every day because she didn't know B was suicidal, and feels incredible guilt and trauma knowing how lonely and agonising her friend's death was. B's other friends and family feel the same pain.

I'm sorry but I am full of compassion for this poor soul. The way she died is proof that she punished herself with shame and grief, far more than Nancy Grace or any of us could. It is an agonising, prolonged and horrific death and speaks volumes about self-hatred.

Yes she caused her baby to die because she was an alcoholic, but alcoholisim is a disease and should be treated as such. If this woman had've received some treatment before/during/after pregnancy the chances are both would still be alive.

Victimising this woman to death is not constructive, moral, Godly, or kind. We should be learning from our mistakes as a society, and taking steps to ensure that this sort of avoidable tragedy does not happen again. IMO it is a community failure and by demonising an ill woman we are ignoring our own roles in contributing to the tragedy by "turning a blind eye" when someone is in dire straits and needs help, as this lady so obviously was.
She had a choice.

This infant died a slow, agonizing, horrific death as his mother smothered him to death. My compassion lies with this little soul that didn't have a choice.
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  #240  
Old 07-15-2012, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ohiogirl View Post
Nancy Grace? Not really, just frustrated with NG's holier than thou attitude for ratings. She needs to get off her high horse and quit encouraging the public to be such harsh judges of people. She didn't cause this woman to commit suicide, but she encouraged all sorts of public outrage. Did any of that help this situation? Not at all. jmo
I agree. I am not saying that NG is making great choices. I am just defending her against those saying she should have these suicides on her conscience. I don't agree with that position at all.

But should she show a bit more compassion and understanding, of course. But as I said earlier, until someone else does a 5 night a week show devoted to missing kids and murder victims, i am going to respect her for doing so herself. And sadly, unless she creates some drama and hyperbole, she would probably go off the air.
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  #241  
Old 07-15-2012, 11:09 PM
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She had a choice.

This infant died a slow, agonizing, horrific death as his mother smothered him to death. My compassion lies with this little soul that didn't have a choice.
This mother was ill, for whatever reason she received no help. It may or may not be her "fault". She may or may not have had "choices"...we do not know her history. Either way she paid the ultimate price, at the end of the day no one judged her more harshly than she judged herself.
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  #242  
Old 07-15-2012, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
I agree. I am not saying that NG is making great choices. I am just defending her against those saying she should have these suicides on her conscience. I don't agree with that position at all.

But should she show a bit more compassion and understanding, of course. But as I said earlier, until someone else does a 5 night a week show devoted to missing kids and murder victims, i am going to respect her for doing so herself. And sadly, unless she creates some drama and hyperbole, she would probably go off the air.
I hear ya, but I don't respect her. jmo
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  #243  
Old 07-16-2012, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
I agree. I am not saying that NG is making great choices. I am just defending her against those saying she should have these suicides on her conscience. I don't agree with that position at all.

But should she show a bit more compassion and understanding, of course. But as I said earlier, until someone else does a 5 night a week show devoted to missing kids and murder victims, i am going to respect her for doing so herself. And sadly, unless she creates some drama and hyperbole, she would probably go off the air.
So....if you were part of publicly ridiculing, bashing and blaming (regardless of whether or not they were guilty) someone for something, and that person later went on to commit suicide, and that persons family said that YOUR comments devastated them, you would feel absolutely no remorse or twinge of conscience for your actions???

And I'm not talking about whether or not they committed any crime or wrong doing. I'm talking about you, as a person (not you really in this sense, just using "you" as a generic term) -- YOU would not feel any personal responsibility?? If you don't, then that means that you (again, not you, personally) are a hard-hearted callous person...a bully, really.
It would mean that you're saying, "Hey, so, I said those things...so what? So they committed suicide...wah, wah, wah." Is that really the type of person you are, really??? Are you that jaded and cruel???

The mom's family said that NG's comments devastated her. None of us will ever know if NG's comments played any role in her decision to commit suicide. I'm just saying, as I've maintained from the start, that I wouldn't want that on my conscience, personally....I wouldn't want any hint of "my comments (along with other factors) could have driven a person to kill themselves..."

I could totally see this woman, having made a horrible decision to drink, that then resulted in the death of her child, being consumed with guilt, and having a host of other emotional or addiction issues going on, being pushed over the edge through a combination of her own self-hatred and the scorn of the public, and committing suicide. And if my actions contributed to that in any way, I'd feel terrible. It's called having a conscience -- your know -- that little voice inside your head that holds you personally responsible for your actions, and how they affect others??
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  #244  
Old 07-16-2012, 12:26 PM
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Does anyone know if she was drinking when she burned herself?
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  #245  
Old 07-16-2012, 04:56 PM
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Does anyone know if she was drinking when she burned herself?
God, I hope so! I hope she was drunk enough to kill the pain a little.

***

I think most of us at WS know katydid23 well enough to say with some confidence that she is NOT heartless, she was merely arguing for a principle.

And oh_gal took pains to make it clear she was NOT calling katy heartless.

I mention this here because I want to second oh_gal's basic point that human beings can still merit our compassion, even when they do stupid, careless or even outright evil things.

Frankly, it's easy to feel compassion for the blameless. Our challenge in this world is to care about the others. IMO, obviously.

(And my personal thanks to oh_gal AND katydid23, because I needed to remind myself of the preceding sentence, having nothing to do with this case.)
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  #246  
Old 07-16-2012, 07:41 PM
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God, I hope so! I hope she was drunk enough to kill the pain a little.

***

I think most of us at WS know katydid23 well enough to say with some confidence that she is NOT heartless, she was merely arguing for a principle.

And oh_gal took pains to make it clear she was NOT calling katy heartless.

I mention this here because I want to second oh_gal's basic point that human beings can still merit our compassion, even when they do stupid, careless or even outright evil things.

Frankly, it's easy to feel compassion for the blameless. Our challenge in this world is to care about the others. IMO, obviously.

(And my personal thanks to oh_gal AND katydid23, because I needed to remind myself of the preceding sentence, having nothing to do with this case.)
(above bbm)
I just wanted to reiterate...that I wasn't calling Katydid heartless...I know you mentioned that, but it never hurts to hear it from the the OP, herself.
I was using "you" in the general population sense.
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  #247  
Old 07-16-2012, 11:50 PM
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I really wonder if she was on a drunk binge and lit herself on fire by accident .It happens all the time to drunks.She may have spilled her vodka on herself and then lit a cigarette.Either way her being dead does not mean she did not kill her child.If she decided to set herself on fire at least she made that choice.Her child did not make the choice to die,she made it for him. I have a heart for the victim and only the victim and that is the baby.
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Old 07-16-2012, 11:56 PM
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Well said, Oh_Gal! Well said.

IMHO, NG and/or her show, epitomizes what is wrong with this country today. And the shame is, she was probably raised better, but, it doing this to make the almighty dollar. Shame Shame MOO
The people Nancy Grace shows on her show are whats wrong with this country.Murderers,child molesters, those kinds of people who even if they were raised right decided to commit horrible crimes.IMO That is where the shame lies!
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