Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

chemgirl said:

Could there be a way of blending two of the theories, i.e., BDI and JDI? MOO, but could it be that JDI, but convinced Patsy that BDI and that they would need to cover up for him? It might be fairly easy to convince Patsy of this scenario, if their son did have behavioral/psychological problems (plus, he had whacked JB with a golfclub in the past).

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Could be, at first.

But I'm sure that over the years PR and BR would have had a long talk. It's a clever theory, but then we have to believe that PR eventually found out and did nothing about it. Or we have to believe she never put 2 and 2 together.

sandover said:

I think the chrishope/docg theory is compelling, but I still think it hinges on PR making that call and how that fits in. Let me think through a few scenarios using the "Hon we need 'em" that is the first thing we hear on the 911 recording and which presumably was spoken to John.

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It should be docG before me. He thought of it years ago. I only recently took another look at the theory and realized that (IMO) it makes more sense than any other.

1) If the scenario is JDI -- if JR was so close to PR that he was telling her NOT to call and she replied "Hon we need 'em" after just having dialed 911 -- this to me suggests that he, for whatever reason, WANTED her to call, because he easily could have ripped the phone from her and said, "Didn't you read the note! She dies if we call anyone!" So JDI suffers given this information.

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Once the call is made, even if you hang up the phone the 911 operator will call back. If the call is not answered, either because the victim can't answer, or because the phone has been ripped from the wall, police will be dispatched. Even if the return call is answered if the operator suspects something is wrong -such as a crying screaming woman in the background while JR calmly explains nothing is wrong- the police will still be dispatched. Once she got the idea across that a child was missing, there was probably no chance at all police would not arrive.

2) If the scenario is PDI or RDI w/cover up -- the question is, why is she saying "Hon we need 'em" -- is she THAT good an actor/writer to have created a "backstory" that just happens to be overheard by the 911 operator? Did they "stage" a disagreement about whether or not to call 911 that was "overheard" by the operator? This seems unlikely.

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Wow! If I ever need to stage a phony call to 911 I want you as my adviser. That would reallly be thinking of every little detail to stage a disagreement about making the call. I agree it's unlikely, but it's brilliant.

Another possibility is that "Hon we need em" refers to a different discussion -- maybe Patsy saying that after calling 911 she wants to call friends, and JR objecting?

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Possible. Another possibility is that it's not a staged disagreement, but a real one. JR might have been saying from a distance "Don't call the police", and PR replies ....

One thing is clear: whether or not BDI, one or both of the Ramseys carried out a crime that night.

If I go back to my gut, I initially thought JDI but then got lost in evidence. I also recall Linda Arndt's gut. These gut reactions are very powerful.

When I think back to early interviews, John always seemed much less smooth and emotional than Patsy, pointing to JDI. Patsy seemed crazy, but like she was always crazy. The big powerful business man John seemed ill at ease and like a guilty man. Go back to the initial CNN interview. Sure, Patsy is drugged up and loony, but John is saying very bizarre things as if to distance himself from a guilty feeling.

So I am more willing than ever to support JDI. But if he let her make that call, the only thing that makes sense to me is that unconsciously part of him wanted to get caught. Because it just makes no sense that he'd think everything through so brilliantly and then let Patsy mess up his plans for the day, which hinged on being able to go about his business alone. [/quote}

As we debate the case, this is a weakness. It doesn't seem he'd leave that to chance. But don't forget that the body is not staged to resemble a home invasion killing. It's harder for me to believe that JR/PR wrote a fake RN, then invited police to come over, knowing the body would be found. If they were going to call police, why not stage the body?

It's hard to imagine Patsy covering up for John. Much easier to see her covering up for Burke. But the BDI scenario has really suffered despite the initial response to Kolar's book. The most convincing scenario has JDI. But we still need a better explanation for why John let Patsy call 911, especially if he was feet away from her and they were arguing about whether or not to call the police.

"Hon we need em" seems key to me...

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I doubt we can create a better reason. At least I can't. My initial reaction to the theory was that JR wouldn't let the call be made if the plan hinged on buying time to dump the body. But again if the plan was to allow the police to find the body (which is what anyone would assume would happen) then why the RN? So we can believe JR/PR jointly figured it would be good to hand the police a goofy RN and let them find the body in the house (unlikely IMO) or we can believe that JR screwed up, didn't think things out carefully, didn't plan for every contingency. There will always be a little doubt on this point, and rightly so. But looking at the whole picture, it makes sense, I think.

docG's theory explains that initial puzzle. There sholdn't be a body and a RN. But we have both. And the note repeats over and over not to call the police or JB will be killed. So it seems the note wasn't for the police. It was meant for PR. The body was wrapped and hidden in the darkest farthest corner of the basement, not because they wanted the police to find JB that way, but because the body had not yet been dumped.

One additional thing that docG had pointed out to me, in the comments on his blog - If it's JDI, and the killing was only a few hours prior to the 911 call, every detail may not have been worked out yet. He may have just assumed PR would come to him before running to the phone. He might have rethought the situation had he enough time.

DeeDee249,
The authorities might not be able to consider him as a suspect, but in the court of public opinion, their rules do not matter.

I think its pretty obvious all three Ramsey's participated in the staging and coverup.

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So you figure they invited the cops over to find a body hidden away and the goofiest RN in the history of crime?

One of John, Patsy, or Burke initially sexually assaulted JonBenet.

Assuming its usually males who do this, and that the acute and chronic abuse was digital, I reckon this slims the suspects down to one?

If you disagree then its the other male.

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Probably.

And of course, just for gender balance, in case Patsy was a crazy cookie, she too may have sexually assaulted JonBenet etc. This I think is less likely. Other variations on PDI abound, so take your choice, e.g. too many meds, bedwetting, bed-soiling, Mother-Daughter argument over clothing etc.

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I’m not convinced of any of those theories.

The argument that John crafted the RN without Patsy's knowledge, and had a master plan which included dumping JonBenet, relocating Burke and Patsy, before collecting the ransom money, is a speculative scenario, which in many parts is in conflict with the known forensic evidence.

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For instance?

Patsy can be placed at the crime-scene wearing the same clothes she wore the night before.

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Which is suspicious.

Fibers from her jacket are embedded into the knotting on the ligature/paintbrush-handle *advertiser censored* garrote, and are attached to the sticky side of the duct tape found on JonBenet. Thats two different physical locations, which I reckon rules out chance. Then there is Patsy's own testimony that she never visited the wine-cellar the night before or the following morning!

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If fibers were present on the cord used to fashion the garrotte, even from secondary transfer, then of course they’d be embedded in the garrote as the cord was knotted. That they were embedded does not tell us if it’s primary or secondary transfer.

We don’t know where the tape came from (we know it’s from in the house because there was no intruder) so we don’t know how the fibers were transferred to the tape. Transfer from PR to JB when she was kissed goodnight? Secondary transfer from JB to the tape? We don’t know. But there are sensible explanations that don’t include PR being involved in the cover up. So chance certainly isn’t ruled out, and with fibers, I’d say chance is usually a good explanation.

If John had actually dumped JonBenet outdoors and collected the cash, he would have been suspect number one, and would most likely have been arrested ASAP. And once JonBenet was found, what was John going say? That because they wrapped her in blanket they never meant to kill her? And of course the media would be screaming Kidnapped girl found dead, e.g. not abducted, just sexually assaulted and dumped. And in those kind of cases the Number One suspect is always the father, check google for cases.

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The parents will be the primary suspects in any scenario. When a child’s dead body is found in the child’s home the parents are always suspects. It seems safer to dump the body than to let police see that you’ve placed the body in the WC.

The obvious thing for JR to say once the body is found is that he and PR are glad to have the body for burial, and that they hope the police can find the culprit….yada yada yada. The police still have to link JR to the crime. He might be arrested (But hell, he should have been arrested at home as soon as he brought the body up) but he has good lawyers and he knows how to keep his mouth shut. He’s in less danger dumping the body than letting the police find it in the home.

Why do you think the media would be screaming “Kidnapped girl found dead" and then say e.g. not abducted, just sexually assaulted and dumped"? There is no reason an abductor could not sexually molest her and dump the body. And of course there is no certainty how long it might take to find the body. The evidence of prior abuse might well have been destroyed.

Then of course there is the planning anomally. John hatches his abduction plan, executes it, then camly leaves Patsy to her own devices. Knowing full well that one of Patsy's options is to dial 911. Somehow I think not!

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This is a weakness. Seemingly. Yet if you believe JR is too smart to leave that to chance, why was he not smart enough to stage the body consistently with a home invader killing JB? And of course, he has not executed the plan. That’s the whole point. PR interrupts the plan.
If it were joint JR/PR on the cover up, then likely they’d either dump the body –in which case the 911 call would not be made at all (yet it was) or they’d stage a slightly plausible home invasion scenario. And there would be no reason for the RN to go on, and on, about not calling the police. A simple short note would suffice. There would be no reason to “buy time”, which seems to be the EXTREMELY OBVIOUS point of the note.

Chrishope said:

It should be docG before me. He thought of it years ago. I only recently took another look at the theory and realized that (IMO) it makes more sense than any other.

Once the call is made, even if you hang up the phone the 911 operator will call back. If the call is not answered, either because the victim can't answer, or because the phone has been ripped from the wall, police will be dispatched. Even if the return call is answered if the operator suspects something is wrong -such as a crying screaming woman in the background while JR calmly explains nothing is wrong- the police will still be dispatched. Once she got the idea across that a child was missing, there was probably no chance at all police would not arrive.

Wow! If I ever need to stage a phony call to 911 I want you as my adviser. That would reallly be thinking of every little detail to stage a disagreement about making the call. I agree it's unlikely, but it's brilliant.

Possible. Another possibility is that it's not a staged disagreement, but a real one. JR might have been saying from a distance "Don't call the police", and PR replies ....


I doubt we can create a better reason. At least I can't. My initial reaction to the theory was that JR wouldn't let the call be made if the plan hinged on buying time to dump the body. But again if the plan was to allow the police to find the body (which is what anyone would assume would happen) then why the RN? So we can believe JR/PR jointly figured it would be good to hand the police a goofy RN and let them find the body in the house (unlikely IMO) or we can believe that JR screwed up, didn't think things out carefully, didn't plan for every contingency. There will always be a little doubt on this point, and rightly so. But looking at the whole picture, it makes sense, I think.

docG's theory explains that initial puzzle. There sholdn't be a body and a RN. But we have both. And the note repeats over and over not to call the police or JB will be killed. So it seems the note wasn't for the police. It was meant for PR. The body was wrapped and hidden in the darkest farthest corner of the basement, not because they wanted the police to find JB that way, but because the body had not yet been dumped.

One additional thing that docG had pointed out to me, in the comments on his blog - If it's JDI, and the killing was only a few hours prior to the 911 call, every detail may not have been worked out yet. He may have just assumed PR would come to him before running to the phone. He might have rethought the situation had he enough time.

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just curious, this "hon we need 'em"...has this been verified, through enhancement? I went back and listened, and couldn't make out a thing. But, if true, it does back up PR's version of her making the decision to call 911... which leads to the question of why there are 2 versions to begin with. This should be cut and dried, with no room for varrying accounts, but, since PR said it was her idea, and she actually made the call, I think it was her idea. If it was JR's idea,wouldn't he have taken charge and made the call himself? MOO

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFMrNtTPaSY"]JonBenet 911 call FULL (high quality with subtitles) - YouTube[/ame]

Turn the volume way up and you'll hear it. It's not real clear what she"s saying, but with the advantage of knowing what to listen for you'll hear it.

sandover said:

I think the chrishope/docg theory is compelling, but I still think it hinges on PR making that call and how that fits in. Let me think through a few scenarios using the "Hon we need 'em" that is the first thing we hear on the 911 recording and which presumably was spoken to John.

1) If the scenario is JDI -- if JR was so close to PR that he was telling her NOT to call and she replied "Hon we need 'em" after just having dialed 911 -- this to me suggests that he, for whatever reason, WANTED her to call, because he easily could have ripped the phone from her and said, "Didn't you read the note! She dies if we call anyone!" So JDI suffers given this information.

2) If the scenario is PDI or RDI w/cover up -- the question is, why is she saying "Hon we need 'em" -- is she THAT good an actor/writer to have created a "backstory" that just happens to be overheard by the 911 operator? Did they "stage" a disagreement about whether or not to call 911 that was "overheard" by the operator? This seems unlikely.

Another possibility is that "Hon we need em" refers to a different discussion -- maybe Patsy saying that after calling 911 she wants to call friends, and JR objecting?

One thing is clear: whether or not BDI, one or both of the Ramseys carried out a crime that night.

If I go back to my gut, I initially thought JDI but then got lost in evidence. I also recall Linda Arndt's gut. These gut reactions are very powerful.

When I think back to early interviews, John always seemed much less smooth and emotional than Patsy, pointing to JDI. Patsy seemed crazy, but like she was always crazy. The big powerful business man John seemed ill at ease and like a guilty man. Go back to the initial CNN interview. Sure, Patsy is drugged up and loony, but John is saying very bizarre things as if to distance himself from a guilty feeling.

So I am more willing than ever to support JDI. But if he let her make that call, the only thing that makes sense to me is that unconsciously part of him wanted to get caught. Because it just makes no sense that he'd think everything through so brilliantly and then let Patsy mess up his plans for the day, which hinged on being able to go about his business alone.

It's hard to imagine Patsy covering up for John. Much easier to see her covering up for Burke. But the BDI scenario has really suffered despite the initial response to Kolar's book. The most convincing scenario has JDI. But we still need a better explanation for why John let Patsy call 911, especially if he was feet away from her and they were arguing about whether or not to call the police.

"Hon we need em" seems key to me...

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sandover,

A lot of people don't pay much attention to that part of the 911-call. I do. To me, it seems like a completely different tone than the "emergency" tone she uses when she realizes the 911 operator has answered the call. I think she was speaking to someone else when the 911 operator picked up the phone.

Consider this:
If we believe that JR and BR were both in the room when the call was made, who does it seem more likely she would have been using that tone with? JR or BR?

I think she was explaining to BR why they were calling the police.
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Chrishope said:

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Just for the sake of clarity , DeeDee249 did not make that post:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8225369&postcount=60"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?[/ame]
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dodie20 said:

just curious, this "hon we need 'em"...has this been verified, through enhancement? I went back and listened, and couldn't make out a thing. But, if true, it does back up PR's version of her making the decision to call 911... which leads to the question of why there are 2 versions to begin with. This should be cut and dried, with no room for varrying accounts, but, since PR said it was her idea, and she actually made the call, I think it was her idea. If it was JR's idea,wouldn't he have taken charge and made the call himself? MOO

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dodie20,

I don't know why you couldn't hear it. Try listening to this (It's the first part of the call only -- and I guarantee it's safe to download):
http://www.mediafire.com/?hfi0fb6i0hex8io
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otg said:

sandover,

A lot of people don't pay much attention to that part of the 911-call. I do. To me, it seems like a completely different tone than the "emergency" tone she uses when she realizes the 911 operator has answered the call. I think she was speaking to someone else when the 911 operator picked up the phone.

Consider this:
If we believe that JR and BR were both in the room when the call was made, who does it seem more likely she would have been using that tone with? JR or BR?

I think she was explaining to BR why they were calling the police.
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Me too....sounds like she also was saying "hush", or "gosh", or "..god", ... at the very beginning, or something else mid-sentence, but she was already speaking when the lady answered, and then states, 'Police!' and goes straight into the address while the lady is talking. She's talking before the lady answers, and talks right through her asking the first question...

And if she did say "Hon, we need 'em", especially since we know now that Burke WAS awake at the time, and even present during the phone call - let's not forget.. And he supposedly had been asking questions like "What did you find?" "What is going on?", maybe even: “Why are you calling the police?”, that could be her answer...

However, I just listened to it over and over now though, and I’m not so sure that’s what she said. It does sound like a possibility, but it could have also been, “Hon, we need a m-…” (As in, "Hon, we need to make a phone call"), or “Um, we need to ma-", or "And we need a ma-") and got interrupted when she heard the call answered and said, "Police.", so as to alert Burke and/or John that the phone was answered.

Or, since she was talking over the dispatch lady anyway, could have been already saying "Um, we need a ma - Police!" "....755 15th Street". Could be she's already telling the lady what she needs like when there's an emergency and you call 911 and the first thing you say is "We need an ambulance!"

So, since she's all breathless, and trying to speak, she may have said, "Hi, uh, um we need - (breath/um), police!"..., or "Hurry, we need um (breath) police! 755 15th Street."...

Chris_Texas said:

That could be a factor here...

The problem is trying to fit what we know happened that night into some kind of sex abuse gone wrong scenario.

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Chris_Texas said:

I believe the answer to this could be that the accident threatened to expose JBs chronic abuse -- which gives the abuser one hell of an incentive to get creative.

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This is what I have always believed. John killed her in a sex abuse gone wrong and Patsy covered up for him!

otg said:

dodie20,

I don't know why you couldn't hear it. Try listening to this (It's the first part of the call only -- and I guarantee it's safe to download):
http://www.mediafire.com/?hfi0fb6i0hex8io
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I've listened to both, and I do not hear those words.
I'm hearing, hur we, we nee, we had a kidnapping...she is initially stuttering, imo.

otg said:

Just for the sake of clarity , DeeDee249 did not make that post:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?
.

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That's true. Too late to edit now.

justthinkin said:

I've listened to both, and I do not hear those words.
I'm hearing, hur we, we nee, we had a kidnapping...she is initially stuttering, imo.

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That could be. It's hard to tell.

Whaleshark said:

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I know, WS, I don't know the exact words she was speaking either. You did a better job than I could at explaining the different possibilities. My main point is the difference in the voice she is using at first (like she is in mid-sentence with someone else), compared to when she starts speaking to the 911 operator with the first word, "POLICE!" And of course, it seems even more telling if you consider that there were three people in the room at the time -- more than likely, one of whom had just caused JonBenet's death.
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UKGuy said:

Well the most consistent theory is BDI. IMO, nothing else explains why the parents would stage together.


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I think the most obvious explanation is they covered for each other because they were both guilty?

:moo:

hetty said:

SapphireSteel (I love your name btw, is that a reference to the programme? I loved that!),

I don't know if B has Aspergers and thats the truth, but as a mother of a child who does, you can be sure that the language and demeanour B is alleged to have used just screams it to me...but I'm not an expert.

There may or many not have ever been an offical diagnosis there, I don't know, but it doesn't make the condition being present any less likely, MANY go undiagnosed, especially girls strangely...certainly my own child was 18 before it was discovered/confirmed.

Can a child with Apsergers grow into a happy, confident, academically gifted, socially active, romatically involved, successful adult? sure they can, some of the worlds most gifted people have fitted into both categories....didn't work out like that for my child, sadly, but it can and does happen (depends MUCH on how much help they get when very young..18 is just too late.)

Can somebody who is happy, confident, academically gifted, socially active, romatically involved, and successful kill? I think so, Ted Bundy did.

(Not saying B is in ANY way like Ted Bundy,or that he is currently dangerous or anything, just that outward appearances are not always a reliable indication of what someone is or what they may or may not have done in the past).

Can a child kill, either accidentally or deliberately - yes, we could name many.

Can a child who kills grow up to be happy, confident, academically gifted, socially active, romatically involved, and successful? It seems so, Mary Bell for one, has her own child now too.

All this could be nonsense, for sure, and B might in no way be involved, as you say, and I sure hope that is the case (but if he was I do think it may have been accidental,and as someone said, *a tragedy of shakespearian proportions*)..but with respect, for me, none of the points you raised mean it can't be the case.

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Yes it is, I loved that show.

Re Burkes behaviour and Aspergers -

I believe the most simple explanation for his odd affect, withdrawal and body language is the fact that he was a smart boy growing up in a life of hell, and he had simply learned to "shut it down".

I believe his ability to do this is still apparent even now, with the adult Burke's refusal to speak. Just ignore it and it's not there. I wonder where he learnt that.

His affect was bored, uninterested, apparently largely unaffected by the mess that was unfolding around him. Remember, this child was never removed from that home. He was under complete control and influence of his parents all the way through. He may merely have been displaying "survival" behaviour - after all, he saw what happened when his sister acted up.

The sum total of his counselling was one visit with a child psych (Patsy didn't even go, she sent him with the housekeeper), who said he appeared completely bored and slightly annoyed with having to talk, until mention of his sister, when he almost curled into a fetal position and basically refused to speak.

That sounds like a traumatised child in denial and still living with his abusers, to me...not Aspergers.

:dunno:

Whaleshark said:

So the only type of posts that should be allowed on here are ones that accuse a nameless intruder?

If that were true, and not protected under the law, there would be no purpose for this forum - for any debate of any other viewpoint.


....And yes, Burke was considered a suspect. Right now we have a new book by a former investigator of the murder. And who do you think he alludes to as the prime suspect?

....Just because someone may/may not have Aspergers, or has a good social life and is successful in their career does not mean they are crime-free, or have never done anything in their past.

If the debate offends you, why are you here, I wonder?

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I think you misunderstood my point.

If you go over to any active case thread right now and mention family members you will be banned.

Here it's ok, and I'm not sure why. I was asking the question really of the moderators, I have pm'd as well though. I don't want to get banned again, it's got nothing to do with anything else.

Burke has NEVER been named by LE as a suspect or POI, on other threads even discussing a family member like this would result in a three day ban.

The debate doesn't offend me :dunno: either way the boards here to share opinions, not attacking other posters.

FWIW, I have always thought it was Burke. I simply believe he's the only person his parents would lie to protect. It's just common sense to me, they've just lost their daughter and when faced with losing their son they made a decision to protect him. If you take away all the stuff that clouds the issue I think it comes down to just that.

Bonnie Blue said:

FWIW, I have always thought it was Burke. I simply believe he's the only person his parents would lie to protect. It's just common sense to me, they've just lost their daughter and when faced with losing their son they made a decision to protect him. If you take away all the stuff that clouds the issue I think it comes down to just that.

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You don't believe they lied to protect themselves as both were guilty?

I can hear Patsy saying..."you have to help cover, I know what else you did".

:moo:

I've thought from Day #1 it was Burke, and I continue to think so to this day.