The Responsibilities of the University and Threat Assessment

[Liz]

Originally Posted by February

By the way, who process school withdrawal on a SUNDAY?...

Also of note ... how most of the articles that I've read stated it as, "JH was going through the process of withdrawing". That seems to me as if the university officials didn't wish to provide a clear date. How was he going through the process if he hadn't even provided a reason why. Or if he had just dropped out.

The only clear date I've seen, regarding his withdrawing from school (and I'd probably have to search for it), was that JH was no longer allowed access to the secured buildings as of June 12th.

Gotta run. My hinky alarm is going off, again. JMO

[February]

Originally Posted by Liz

Also of note ... how most of the articles that I've read stated it as, "JH was going through the process of withdrawing". That seems to me as if the university officials didn't wish to provide a clear date. How was he going through the process if he hadn't even provided a reason why. Or if he had just dropped out.

The only clear date I've seen, regarding his withdrawing from school (and I'd probably have to search for it), was that JH was no longer allowed access to the secured buildings as of June 12th.

Gotta run. My hinky alarm is going off, again. JMO

But on June 10 -- three days after Holmes bought an assault weapon and added it to his already growing arsenal -- he suddenly told the university that he was dropping out of the neurosciences doctoral program with no explanation.

http://news.yahoo.com/psychiatrist-c...opstories.html

My calendar says June 10 is Sunday

[songline]

Originally Posted by February

Miller's involvement was requested by University of Colorado Denver Chancellor Donald M. Elliman, Jr. and Executive Vice Chancellor for the Anschutz Medical Campus Lilly Marks.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...ater-shootings

maybe this is just their preparation of a possible lawsuit against the university. IMO

So far I see conflict of interest in Miller's involvment.
If I am wrong - we shall see.

[DeadCat]

Originally Posted by February

But on June 10 -- three days after Holmes bought an assault weapon and added it to his already growing arsenal -- he suddenly told the university that he was dropping out of the neurosciences doctoral program with no explanation.

http://news.yahoo.com/psychiatrist-c...opstories.html

My calendar says June 10 is Sunday

Anyone else wondering if the dropping out wasn't so sudden and mysterious? Maybe there was no explanation because everyone knew why. Was everyone just relieved that he was dropping out (the professor having beer with his students to tell them JH is gone)--maybe they were subtily trying to get him to leave. (The BETA call and a failed oral exam, and then he "drops out")

[jjenny]

Originally Posted by DeadCat

Anyone else wondering if the dropping out wasn't so sudden and mysterious? Maybe there was no explanation because everyone knew why. Was everyone just relieved that he was dropping out (the professor having beer with his students to tell them JH is gone)--maybe they were subtily trying to get him to leave. (The BETA call and a failed oral exam, and then he "drops out")

What if they did? I have no clue what is behind the logic that everyone should have tried to keep this guy around? Does that mean they knew he was going to be accused of killing 12 people? People do drop out of graduate school. A vast majority of them don't kill anyone.

[rollinginit]

I don't know much about grad school, but I am having a hard time with people saying you just don't drop out of grad school! I would think grad school would be super hard. The link that I posted in media about JH's grad's school and what exactly they do in that program....it was pretty detailed. It seemed extremely hard and very time consuming. Actually sounded like you don't have much of a life.

Sure maybe most don't drop out, but I bet there are people that drop out.

Most (IMO) young people now have this mind set where they think they are all the best at everything. They are all winners. None of these kids are learning how to deal with rejection or losing. All the way back from his younger years, everybody describes him as being super smart. He was probably told that his whole life. You know what? Sometimes the real world will knock you down a few pegs. Maybe he learned there were other kids just as smart if not smarter than him. Maybe he couldn't cope with the coarse load? Or just maybe he lost interest in school???

It's my thought and opinion.....I believe he just thought everybody else was stupid.

[DeadCat]

Originally Posted by jjenny

What if they did? I have no clue what is behind the logic that everyone should have tried to keep this guy around? Does that mean they knew he was going to be accused of killing 12 people? People do drop out of graduate school. A vast majority of them don't kill anyone.

I think my frustration is with the school standing on both sides of the fence. If he wasn't "doctoral material" or was too "off"-- socially or mentally--why didn't the school just say that? Instead the first reports we received were about how he didn't have to drop out. They could have worked with him to help him improve his exam performance which just doesn't feel like the whole story to me.

[DeadCat]

I think we're hearing 2 conflicting sets of evidence which is frustrating. On one hand there's the argument that "something was seriously amiss" and on the other "all was sudden and couldn't have been prevented or predicted." It will be interesting to see the findings from the UC internal investigation.

Seriously amiss evidence:
drastic change of appearance
shy, studious guy starts meeting with prostitutes
notebook (depending day received)
BETA team referral by doc
dropping out of grad school after only one year after working so hard to get there
etc.

Sudden and unpredictable:
Shy, quiet, kept to himself
dropping out could have been a normal reaction to failing the exam
etc.

[February]

Originally Posted by DeadCat

Anyone else wondering if the dropping out wasn't so sudden and mysterious? Maybe there was no explanation because everyone knew why. Was everyone just relieved that he was dropping out (the professor having beer with his students to tell them JH is gone)--maybe they were subtily trying to get him to leave. (The BETA call and a failed oral exam, and then he "drops out")

IMO, i would like to know how he performed on the last 2 semesters prior to this Spring Semester. Obviously he passed these 2 semester because he reached the 3rd Semester but how was his performance. One thing we could look forward on the trial is to hear from his fellow classmates and other professors and his academic counselor if he has one.

fyi - academic calendar :
http://www.ucdenver.edu/student-serv...ool2011-12.pdf

[DeadCat]

Originally Posted by February

IMO, i would like to know how he performed on the last 2 semesters prior to this Spring Semester. Obviously he passed these 2 semester because he reached the 3rd Semester but how was his performance. One thing we could look forward on the trial is to hear from his fellow classmates and other professors and his academic counselor if he has one.

fyi - academic calendar :
http://www.ucdenver.edu/student-serv...ool2011-12.pdf

February, Are you thinking he started during summer semester? Even if he was awarded the grant it June, he may have still officially begun in Fall. It's unusual to start during summer semester, unless it's a special program (which it may have been--have you heard?) As someone else pointed out, usually in grad school, you only get As or Bs. A "C" is considered failing and professors would probably call you aside before this happened. I suppose if he did receive a bunch of C's during fall and spring, that would say something!

[Liz]

FWIW -

""He had, as is now common knowledge, excellent academic credentials," said Barry Shur, dean of the university's graduate program."

Source

[waitin'4thewrld2chg]

I think if would have looked better (been better?) if the person chosen to conduct the internal investigation at the university were not a graduate of that institution.

The way I read it, Robert N. Miller did his undergraduate work at Cornell, but received his law degree at the University of Colorado in 1965. His credentials look very solid imo, but my general observation is that loyalty to an alma mater can be quite strong.

http://www.perkinscoie.com/8/rmiller/

[jjenny]

Originally Posted by DeadCat

I think my frustration is with the school standing on both sides of the fence. If he wasn't "doctoral material" or was too "off"-- socially or mentally--why didn't the school just say that? Instead the first reports we received were about how he didn't have to drop out. They could have worked with him to help him improve his exam performance which just doesn't feel like the whole story to me.

And nothing have come out to suggest they couldn't have worked with him to improve his exam performance.
Assuming, of course, he was a regular student.

[Curious Me]

This thread is about the university's responsibilities to the student. They are required to handle students without aggravating someone they sense may be a threat. People do drop out of grad programs, and don't end up killing people, but maybe there's circumstances in this case we don't know about yet. It's still up for discussion.

IMO, it wasn't quite a sudden snap of the mind afterall. I'm thinking of it like a rash that was being ignored until the arm fell off - maybe a bad example - need more coffee.

[February]

Originally Posted by waitin'4thewrld2chg

I think if would have looked better (been better?) if the person chosen to conduct the internal investigation at the university were not a graduate of that institution.

The way I read it, Robert N. Miller did his undergraduate work at Cornell, but received his law degree at the University of Colorado in 1965. His credentials look very solid imo, but my general observation is that loyalty to an alma mater can be quite strong.

http://www.perkinscoie.com/8/rmiller/

and he represented the University on a lawsuit that awarded them $58m against a pharmaceutical company

Michael Carrigan hired him to do the review... just look at all Michael Carrigan statements here and there... lots are contradictory..check the contradicting thread, liz got one in there...Michael Carrigan is a member of the University Board of Regents...

[jjenny]

Originally Posted by DeadCat

February, Are you thinking he started during summer semester? Even if he was awarded the grant it June, he may have still officially begun in Fall. It's unusual to start during summer semester, unless it's a special program (which it may have been--have you heard?) As someone else pointed out, usually in grad school, you only get As or Bs. A "C" is considered failing and professors would probably call you aside before this happened. I suppose if he did receive a bunch of C's during fall and spring, that would say something!

I am pretty sure that students whose GPA falls below B in graduate school are put on academic probation. They are given however long a period to improve the GPA. If they don't, they are let go. These rules would apply to every graduate student. We haven't heard anything about JH being on academic probation.

[jjenny]

Originally Posted by Curious Me

This thread is about the university's responsibilities to the student. They are required to handle students without aggravating someone they sense may be a threat. People do drop out of grad programs, and don't end up killing people, but maybe there's circumstances in this case we don't know about yet. It's still up for discussion.

IMO, it wasn't quite a sudden snap of the mind afterall. I'm thinking of it like a rash that was being ignored until the arm fell off - maybe a bad example - need more coffee.

How do Universities supposed to do this, exactly? When student is an adult, he can do whatever it is he wants, including dropping out.

[February]

Originally Posted by DeadCat

February, Are you thinking he started during summer semester? Even if he was awarded the grant it June, he may have still officially begun in Fall. It's unusual to start during summer semester, unless it's a special program (which it may have been--have you heard?) As someone else pointed out, usually in grad school, you only get As or Bs. A "C" is considered failing and professors would probably call you aside before this happened. I suppose if he did receive a bunch of C's during fall and spring, that would say something!

I assume he entered summer semester because of the dates of entry to the school..

If his grades was all A and B on 2 semesters and spring is all C and F, they why.... what happened to him..

[February]

Originally Posted by waitin'4thewrld2chg

I think if would have looked better (been better?) if the person chosen to conduct the internal investigation at the university were not a graduate of that institution.

The way I read it, Robert N. Miller did his undergraduate work at Cornell, but received his law degree at the University of Colorado in 1965. His credentials look very solid imo, but my general observation is that loyalty to an alma mater can be quite strong.

http://www.perkinscoie.com/8/rmiller/

I actually think that Miller lawyer is there to prepare now from all the lawsuit the school could be facing in the future . I dont believe he is just there for review IMO..

[February]

Do you guys think some famous lawyer will soon come forward to represent
( pro-bono ) JH and the families of many victims?

[Curious Me]

How people are treated when failing school or being terminated from a job is still important. Policy is one thing, but I think any university or corporation should be aware of the growing number of people not taking being let go in stride. Exactly what did they do to prevent. They haven't told us enough yet.

[February]

Originally Posted by Liz

FWIW -

""He had, as is now common knowledge, excellent academic credentials," said Barry Shur, dean of the university's graduate program."

Source

per the withdrawal process, an approval of the dean is necessary, if Barry shur thinks he is excellent on academic credentials then i think he'll be stepping up to understand more why this guy is dropping

After the census date (see current academic calendar for census date), through the 10th week (fifth week for summer) students must submit a withdrawal form with the approval of the dean and the Office of Financial Aid.
http://catalog.ucdenver.edu/content....=25#withdrawal

[jjenny]

Originally Posted by Curious Me

How people are treated when failing school or being terminated from a job is still important. Policy is one thing, but I think any university or corporation should be aware of the growing number of people not taking being let go in stride. Exactly what did they do to prevent. They haven't told us enough yet.

He wasn't terminated. He voluntarily withdraw.
Nothing came out to contradict that. Was anyone supposed to run behind him begging him to not go?

[Curious Me]

Originally Posted by jjenny

He wasn't terminated. He voluntarily withdraw.
Nothing came out to contradict that. Was anyone supposed to run behind him begging him to not go?

You want to make every possible effort to stop someone you know is acting uncommonly strange from escalating to violence especially when as a university you're aware of all the school shootings. This isn't the old days. To be clear, I don't buy that he just voluntarily withdrew just because the school or media says so.

[CARIIS]

I can translate BS, I learned it on a ROsetta Stone DVD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Campus leaders Cover THeir A** FIndings due in 2033!