Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[UKGuy]

Originally Posted by DeeDee249

We know that the sheets were dry when taken into evidence. LHP was shown a photo of the bed ad told LE they were not the sheets she put on the bed when she was there last, on Dec 23 for the R Christmas party. Creatinine was found- a component of dried urine, so unfortunately we don't know exactly when it happened, but logical theory has LHP changing the sheets on the 23rd, JB wetting again the night of the 23rd, Patsy laundering the sheets and (white blanket in the basement as usual) and remaking the bed with clean sheets but not bothering to go to the basement dryer for the white blanket. Then JB wets the bed again Christmas Eve, and the bed remains that way till LE take the crime photos on the 26th. I believe Patsy even admitted under questioning that the bed was made up without a blanket because no one could have pulled the blanket from the bed and left the bedspread at the foot of the bed intact, which the photo clearly indicated.

DeeDee249,
Since I reckon the R's fabricated their version of events I've never dwelt on the bed issue for long.

So are you pointing out that Patsy placed JonBenet into a bed that had no blankets, and that she would have known it had been recently been wet?

Also did the R's not admit that JonBenet slept in Burke's room on the 24th, or ws it the 23rd?



.

[DeeDee249]

Originally Posted by UKGuy

DeeDee249,
Since I reckon the R's fabricated their version of events I've never dwelt on the bed issue for long.

So are you pointing out that Patsy placed JonBenet into a bed that had no blankets, and that she would have known it had been recently been wet?

Also did the R's not admit that JonBenet slept in Burke's room on the 24th, or ws it the 23rd?



.

I am not pointing out anything like that. I am not sure JB was placed in that bed at all, though she was probably in the bedroom. And I believe Patsy changed the sheets herself because LHP had not come Christmas Eve or Christmas Day but made the bed without the blanket because she was too busy/stressed/lazy to go to the basement dryer to get it. Patsy knew the bed had no blanket, and by the time that night rolled around, urine from the previous night would have been dry anyway.
There is no way to prove that JB slept in BRs room on the 24th either, though she was said to do that sometimes.
We can't prove the pink pajama bottoms were really in BR's room either. Nothing that I have seen states that definitively.

[txsvicki]

I can't see patsy washing any sheets and blanket since there were dried urine stained sheets already on the bed. Did the cops find dry reeking stains that morning or was it much later after they found the body? I don't think they would be dry in the morning and maybe not long enough to be reeking in the afternoon.

[midwest mama]

Originally Posted by Chrishope

Let's try this. Why implicate yourself if there is not a good reason to do so? If they killed JB, then staging is their only recourse.

If BDI they have two options. One, stage, and thereby implicate themselves. Two, don't stage, don't implicate themselves, and deal with the ramifications of a juvenile killing his sibling.

IMO rational people do not run the risk of life in prison to avoid damaging their standing in the community or their "image".

Chrishope --

Just came into the Forum a few days ago, and trying hard to read all the previous info I can, so coming in to your post with a belated reply.

IMO I do not consider the Ramseys as having been "rational" people at the time of JB's murder, and this is why I feel that way:

They involved their child in what I see as a form of public entertainment that places children in the role of sometimes highly sexually appearing mature individuals - Toddler Beauty Pageants. There are just too many reasons parents put their children in these productions, which I will not bother to list, and most of them are NOT for the benefit of the child's most beneficial development into adulthood. This, to many, would be considered 'irrational' parenting.

Both of the Ramsey's, IMO, displayed several characteristics of Narcissism. Narcissism produces irrational behaviors as viewed by the 'mainstream' populace. I recognize many of the behaviors they demonstrated to the public after spending many years becoming well-versed in narcissistic behavior through personal experience within our family dynamics. Professional involvement in my experience has been a valued teaching process for several in our family.

This is the most difficult aspect in dealing with a Narcissist to understand: They, themselves, cannot accept that anything other than the way they think or feel is acceptable or to be considered. Their image of self-perfection must be maintained at ALL COSTS.

Their failure at ANYTHING, in their own eyes, is not an acceptable concept to them. I know it may seem unimaginable to some people to think a child could be sacrificed for this personna, but believe me, a true narcissist would find a justification for their behavior, strictly within their own mindset, that would enable them to satisfy their need to present an unflawed outward appearance to the world.

It is not in their capacity to accept anything less than their own perception of perfection for themselves. The atrocity of someone in their family murdering another of their own family would have to be made to make it appear they had no involvement in that action. They cannot accept they could be wrong about anything, and simply would explain any proof to the contrary as there being something 'invalid' with the proof.

And, a Narcissist would be very certain, again in their own mind, that no matter what the circumstances, it would not be them that went to prison. They would be certain they were above the law, or had every means available to them to prevent it. And if something DID backfire in this process, well then, it would be because the people involved in the process were flawed and irresponsible enough to cause them to become imprisoned. Therefore, they would have justified, to themselves, they had been victimized, and in their own minds could exonerate themselves of responsibility.

'Nuff said using my non-professional, but personally experienced, background in relationship matters with Narcissistic people. I can say with a clear mind and heart that I am of the opinion the Ramseys would have staged JB's murder if they knew someone in their own family had murdered their daughter, expecting they would have every answer necessary needed to keep them free of any suspicious involvement.

[UKGuy]

Originally Posted by DeeDee249

I am not pointing out anything like that. I am not sure JB was placed in that bed at all, though she was probably in the bedroom. And I believe Patsy changed the sheets herself because LHP had not come Christmas Eve or Christmas Day but made the bed without the blanket because she was too busy/stressed/lazy to go to the basement dryer to get it. Patsy knew the bed had no blanket, and by the time that night rolled around, urine from the previous night would have been dry anyway.
There is no way to prove that JB slept in BRs room on the 24th either, though she was said to do that sometimes.
We can't prove the pink pajama bottoms were really in BR's room either. Nothing that I have seen states that definitively.

DeeDee249,
I just thought it odd if JonBenet's bed was not made up as normal? That is in the Ramsey version of events, was JonBenet placed into her bed, made up as normal, or as Patsy described?

If the bed had a blanket deficit, where in the Ramsey version or events did the blanket originate?

We can't prove the pink pajama bottoms were really in BR's room either. Nothing that I have seen states that definitively.

I do agree. But when JonBenet was found she was wearing white longjohns, and next to her was discovered a pink, bloodstained, barbie nightgown.

So with the pink pajama bottoms and size-6 underwear unaccounted for. I reckon both were forensically contaminated so had to be removed?



.

[Chrishope]

Originally Posted by midwest mama

Chrishope --

Just came into the Forum a few days ago, and trying hard to read all the previous info I can, so coming in to your post with a belated reply.

IMO I do not consider the Ramseys as having been "rational" people at the time of JB's murder, and this is why I feel that way:

They involved their child in what I see as a form of public entertainment that places children in the role of sometimes highly sexually appearing mature individuals - Toddler Beauty Pageants. There are just too many reasons parents put their children in these productions, which I will not bother to list, and most of them are NOT for the benefit of the child's most beneficial development into adulthood. This, to many, would be considered 'irrational' parenting.

Both of the Ramsey's, IMO, displayed several characteristics of Narcissism. Narcissism produces irrational behaviors as viewed by the 'mainstream' populace. I recognize many of the behaviors they demonstrated to the public after spending many years becoming well-versed in narcissistic behavior through personal experience within our family dynamics. Professional involvement in my experience has been a valued teaching process for several in our family.

This is the most difficult aspect in dealing with a Narcissist to understand: They, themselves, cannot accept that anything other than the way they think or feel is acceptable or to be considered. Their image of self-perfection must be maintained at ALL COSTS.

Their failure at ANYTHING, in their own eyes, is not an acceptable concept to them. I know it may seem unimaginable to some people to think a child could be sacrificed for this personna, but believe me, a true narcissist would find a justification for their behavior, strictly within their own mindset, that would enable them to satisfy their need to present an unflawed outward appearance to the world.

It is not in their capacity to accept anything less than their own perception of perfection for themselves. The atrocity of someone in their family murdering another of their own family would have to be made to make it appear they had no involvement in that action. They cannot accept they could be wrong about anything, and simply would explain any proof to the contrary as there being something 'invalid' with the proof.

And, a Narcissist would be very certain, again in their own mind, that no matter what the circumstances, it would not be them that went to prison. They would be certain they were above the law, or had every means available to them to prevent it. And if something DID backfire in this process, well then, it would be because the people involved in the process were flawed and irresponsible enough to cause them to become imprisoned. Therefore, they would have justified, to themselves, they had been victimized, and in their own minds could exonerate themselves of responsibility.

'Nuff said using my non-professional, but personally experienced, background in relationship matters with Narcissistic people. I can say with a clear mind and heart that I am of the opinion the Ramseys would have staged JB's murder if they knew someone in their own family had murdered their daughter, expecting they would have every answer necessary needed to keep them free of any suspicious involvement.

Welcome.

I prefer not to try to do psychological analysis of the Rs.

I believe you know about narcissistic types, but respectfully, I don't think you've given any grounds for saying the Rs were narcissistic.

I think they'd weigh the risks and decide that it's silly to cover for Burke.

But this is a fundamental disagreement between people who think as I do - that the likely response to Burke hitting JB would be calling an ambulance, and people who think as you do - that the Rs would try to protect their image and their narcissism prevented them from assessing things accurately.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[DeeDee249]

Originally Posted by txsvicki

I can't see patsy washing any sheets and blanket since there were dried urine stained sheets already on the bed. Did the cops find dry reeking stains that morning or was it much later after they found the body? I don't think they would be dry in the morning and maybe not long enough to be reeking in the afternoon.

LE found creatinine- a component in DRIED urine. Under a fluoroscope, proteins in urine, blood, semen will glow under black light, and can then be tested to see which of these substances it is. This was how the misconception that semen was found on JB's thighs got put out there- because the fluoroscope revealed a protein on her body that when swabbed and tested was found to be JB's own blood. Until that test came back as blood, LE thought it might be semen.
In the case of JB's bedsheets, it was dried urine. I can't say they reeked, but by the time LE took the sheets into evidence, they were dry. I think Patsy washed the sheets because they could have been washed in the small washer/dryer right outside JB's bedroom. But the blanket was always laundered in the basement machine, which were larger. I can not see Patsy taking the time to go to the basement to get it, especially Christmas eve/day, and that is why the bed was made up without the blanket. If it were LHP doing it, she'd have put the blanket on, but she had not been there for 3 days at the time JB was found, and was not scheduled to come back to the house until the Rs left for their trip. I also think Patsy would have let JB sleep on dirty (but not wet) sheets. If she'd wet them a night or two before but they were dry, Patsy might not bother about changing them, figuring she'll wet them again anyway and just leave it all for LHP.

[DeeDee249]

Originally Posted by UKGuy

DeeDee249,
I just thought it odd if JonBenet's bed was not made up as normal? That is in the Ramsey version of events, was JonBenet placed into her bed, made up as normal, or as Patsy described?

If the bed had a blanket deficit, where in the Ramsey version or events did the blanket originate?


I do agree. But when JonBenet was found she was wearing white longjohns, and next to her was discovered a pink, bloodstained, barbie nightgown.

So with the pink pajama bottoms and size-6 underwear unaccounted for. I reckon both were forensically contaminated so had to be removed?



.

I don't think it odd at all, from what I know of Patsy. Patsy would very likely make the bed up without the blanket because she was too lazy/busy to go to the basement to get it. The Rs did not give a "version" of this event. They went with the RST fantasy of JB being taken from her bed wrapped in that blanket. It was only when LE showed Patsy crime photos of JB's bed and pointed out that there was no way a blanket could have been pulled from that bed and left the rest of the bed intact. When pushed, Patsy admitted this.
As for the pink pajama bottoms (which we KNOW existed, as she wore them the Christmas Eve and Patsy reported looking for them, and the original panties (which very likely did exist but it can't be proved, the obvious reason is that they were forensically contaminated, but we can't prove it because they are not in evidence as far as we know.

[ILikeToBendPages]

Originally Posted by DeeDee249

LE found creatinine- a component in DRIED urine. Under a fluoroscope, proteins in urine, blood, semen will glow under black light, and can then be tested to see which of these substances it is. This was how the misconception that semen was found on JB's thighs got put out there- because the fluoroscope revealed a protein on her body that when swabbed and tested was found to be JB's own blood. Until that test came back as blood, LE thought it might be semen.
In the case of JB's bedsheets, it was dried urine. I can't say they reeked, but by the time LE took the sheets into evidence, they were dry. I think Patsy washed the sheets because they could have been washed in the small washer/dryer right outside JB's bedroom. But the blanket was always laundered in the basement machine, which were larger. I can not see Patsy taking the time to go to the basement to get it, especially Christmas eve/day, and that is why the bed was made up without the blanket. If it were LHP doing it, she'd have put the blanket on, but she had not been there for 3 days at the time JB was found, and was not scheduled to come back to the house until the Rs left for their trip. I also think Patsy would have let JB sleep on dirty (but not wet) sheets. If she'd wet them a night or two before but they were dry, Patsy might not bother about changing them, figuring she'll wet them again anyway and just leave it all for LHP.

I can see Pasty letting JonBenet sleep on dry dirty sheets. When would JonBenet of gotten a bath? I think Pasty said she hadn't had bath in about 24 hours Christmas Day. So would that of been a bath on Monday and the gingerbread houses party? And JonBenet could be sleeping on those same sheets if they'd dried?

I've often wondered if Pasty or John were ever ashamed of all that's come out about her and her housekeeping skills. and their home? The clutter and dust in the corners would of been something LHP could of kept up with if she didn't have pick up after Pasty and her kids all the time.

Why did they Ramsey's go through so many different housekeepers and babysitters?

[Pashtun Wally]

Six dudes with cameras, lights, and a steel plate came in to film the violation of a child. Oh, wait; no evidence of an intruder has EVER been discovered.

Figure it out, IDIs.

[txsvicki]

I just can't see anyone who blames redness on a toddler's poor wiping skills and getting the panties wet ever changing the blanket. She decided not to use pullups to increase the feeling of wetness and discomfort which could make the red areas even sorer. Maybe she even put her in a wet stinky bed and pulled those off before lhp got there. Burke said it was a big problem and there reeally wasn't much reason for him to know about it. The blanket could have been taken off and comforter put back on in a sloppy way and poor staging.

[DeeDee249]

Originally Posted by ILikeToBendPages

I can see Pasty letting JonBenet sleep on dry dirty sheets. When would JonBenet of gotten a bath? I think Pasty said she hadn't had bath in about 24 hours Christmas Day. So would that of been a bath on Monday and the gingerbread houses party? And JonBenet could be sleeping on those same sheets if they'd dried?

I've often wondered if Pasty or John were ever ashamed of all that's come out about her and her housekeeping skills. and their home? The clutter and dust in the corners would of been something LHP could of kept up with if she didn't have pick up after Pasty and her kids all the time.

Why did they Ramsey's go through so many different housekeepers and babysitters?

The last time clean sheets were KNOWN to be put on her bed was the morning of Dec 23, when LHP came to help Patsy set up for her Christmas party. LHP and her young daughter, who was a few years older than JB, were invited to stay for the party and Patsy lent LHP's daughter one of her dressy sweaters to wear because she hadn't planned to be at the party originally.
When shown JB's bed in crime photos, LHP said the sheets on the bed were not the ones she put on when she was last there. We don't know whether Patsy changed the sheets on the 24th, 25th, or both, but I'd bet it was the 24th. JB likely wet the bed Christmas Eve, and Christmas morning being what it usually is in most households with small kids, I doubt she changed them herself Christmas morning- letting the wet sheets dry on the bed.
Even Patsy's mother Nedra complained to Patsy about the mess in her house, saying that the housekeeper couldn't clean properly because the house was so messy.
I doubt the talk about the condition of the house bothered them.
As for why they went through so many housekeepers/babysitters- I am sure the house was a lot of work to clean, and the untidiness didn't help, but LHP said she was treated well by Patsy. They didn't actually have all that many different housekeepers/babysitters. Patsy moved to Boulder from Atlanta, so obviously she needed a new one when she got there. I think there was only one that preceded LHP in Boulder.

[txsvicki]

I've always thought it odd that jonbenet didn't have on holiday pj's for christmas pics. Maybe she did have a pair and wet them when lhp's sheets got wet.

[DeeDee249]

Originally Posted by txsvicki

I've always thought it odd that jonbenet didn't have on holiday pj's for christmas pics. Maybe she did have a pair and wet them when lhp's sheets got wet.

Possible, but doesn't really affect what happened. She could have had any other pair on and wet them as well. Holiday PJs are usually the holiday colors of red, green, or holiday print. When my daughter was that age, she wore TWO colors only- pink and lavender. I couldn't have got red or green on her if I begged.

[txsvicki]

Burke didn't have on xmas pj's either. I guess the trend of having brand new xmas pj's for christmas eve wasn't all that poular to them. It just seems odd compared to all the xmas trees, party dressing up, etc.

[FrayedKnot]

My Lil Knot's Christmas PJs this past year were pink with light blue and green ornament pattern on them. But in pics, they just look like fleece jammies; not at all Christmas-y.

[DeeDee249]

Originally Posted by txsvicki

Burke didn't have on xmas pj's either. I guess the trend of having brand new xmas pj's for christmas eve wasn't all that poular to them. It just seems odd compared to all the xmas trees, party dressing up, etc.

BR would have been too old to want to wear Christmas PJs. Patsy over-decorating her house was one thing- the Christmas PJ were another. I agree that someone like Patsy would seem to be the kind of mother who would want the matching holiday PJs on her kids for pictures, though.

[BOESP]

Originally Posted by BOESP

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yaK2RstdQQw

If any of you haven't seen this it is really worthwhile and won't take but a few minutes.

Why in the world would anyone do a public interview like this? These people really liked hearing their own voices and seeing themselves on television. This is total arrogance. If you have time watch it once to listen then watch it again to watch their body language.

[txsvicki]

Murderers usually go to church inside the prison for a bunch of years.

[SunVenus]

Originally Posted by BOESP

If any of you haven't seen this it is really worthwhile and won't take but a few minutes.

Why in the world would anyone do a public interview like this? These people really liked hearing their own voices and seeing themselves on television. This is total arrogance. If you have time watch it once to listen then watch it again to watch their body language.

Just watched it and was disgusted. They DO seem to love the sound of their own voices and all the special attention at the expense of their daughter's life. Something in my gut just screams "ick" when I see them or read thier statements. Very creepy & dishonest couple, IMO.

[midwest mama]

Originally Posted by SunVenus

Just watched it and was disgusted. They DO seem to love the sound of their own voices and all the special attention at the expense of their daughter's life. Something in my gut just screams "ick" when I see them or read thier statements. Very creepy & dishonest couple, IMO.

Ditto!

They always seem to use a chance to weave their "Christianity" into their righteousness. Consider the ransom note, signed Victory! S.B.T.C --
There's a Christian song with these lyrics: Oh victory in Jesus, my savior forever, he sought me and bought me with his redeeming blood.... And how about She Belongs To Christ - signed off by one of those two 'humble' Christians?

Add Mr. Ramsey's latest book to their Christian profile, and I just want to scream.

[Bonnette]

They are repulsive - everything about them curdles my blood. The nerve of them, to sit there with those smug self-righteous smiles, bloviating about Christianity! "What if we were murderers..." Aaaargh. I'm with midwest mama:

[BOESP]

I totally agree with every opinion you all posted about that video.

What sane person would even discuss such in public and smile about it.

Arrogant, condescending, smug, repulsive ... yep, I totally agree.

[SapphireSteel]

Skip on over to Isabel Celis's thread.

Exactly the same dynamic.

Bible in one hand, blood on the other...

[BOESP]

Originally Posted by SapphireSteel

Skip on over to Isabel Celis's thread.

Exactly the same dynamic.

Bible in one hand, blood on the other...

Sounds like an excellent title for a true crime book.