CA CA - Long Beach - White Male 1392UMCA, 15-19, June 1978 - "Paid" stamp on hand

[Ambercat]

Originally Posted by CarlK90245

As far back as I can remember, the Disneyland hand stamps were in invisible ink, viewable under a blacklight. I don't remember what the Knott's Berry Farm stamps looked like.

Sorry...its been sort of a long time since I had been there. As soon as I read it, I remembered that they had sort of a yellow look to the ink.

Roller skating rinks also used to stamp your hands, too. I think those were popular back then.

[Ambercat]

It has been 34 years today since this young man was found in Belmont Shore. The Long Beach Press Telegram has an article about him, Shoreline Jane Doe, and another UID (a woman found near Esther St on the west side of Long Beach in 1989). There is a crime scene photo from the original investigation and a new [I believe] reconstruction of the UID --

http://www.presstelegram.com/rss/ci_...ms-are-mystery
My hair stood on end when I read his cause of death in the article (until now, I had always thought his death was a toxicology issue) --

John Doe No. 146 could have still been in high school when he was strangled and his body was dumped in 1978, face down in the street in Belmont Shore. The long-haired teen looks like he is sleeping in the yellowed crime scene photos. Neither his body, found near Corona Avenue and Division Street, nor his clothing showed any signs of living on the streets.

Could he be "Front of Ripples?" He is only two or three blocks away (Ripples is located at Granada and Ocean Blvd). I had just intended to check the news headlines and go to sleep, yet when I read the Press Telegram article, I had to relay the information.

[CarlK90245]

Here's the location where the John Doe was found. He was lying right where the "A" marker is in this photo on the north side of the street. E. Division Street is an eastbound one-way street.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=5230+...gl=us&t=h&z=19


I wonder if the street was one-way in 1978. If it was eastbound one-way, it would be strange for someone to dump a body from the driver's side of the car. Either (1) there was a second passenger dumping the body from the rear-seat on the left-hand side of the car, or (2) the driver got out of the car and pulled the body out and dragged him to the side of the street (unlikely), or (3) he was driving the wrong-way on a one-way street when he dumped the body.


ETA: Oops, never mind. I can see it was a two-way street based on the positions of the cars in the crime scene photo.

[CarlK90245]

Originally Posted by Ambercat

It has been 34 years today since this young man was found in Belmont Shore. The Long Beach Press Telegram has an article about him, Shoreline Jane Doe, and another UID (a woman found near Esther St on the west side of Long Beach in 1989). There is a crime scene photo from the original investigation and a new [I believe] reconstruction of the UID --

http://www.presstelegram.com/rss/ci_...ms-are-mystery

My hair stood on end when I read his cause of death in the article (until now, I had always thought his death was a toxicology issue) --

Could he be "Front of Ripples?" He is only two or three blocks away (Ripples is located at Granada and Ocean Blvd). I had just intended to check the news headlines and go to sleep, yet when I read the Press Telegram article, I had to relay the information.

I noticed in that article that Detective Jones completely misstated the way CODIS and DNA testing works.

Before detectives Jones and Dugan's last day on the job Thursday, all five profiles were entered into the Combined DNA Index System (CODIS), on the chance that a match might still be found. A relative can be swabbed and have their DNA compared to the DNA of the victims, though only if the relative is male, because an X chromosome must be present to make a match, Jones explained.

BBM.

First of all, it's the "Y" chromosome that is present only in males, not the "X" (Males are XY, females are XX).

Secondly, the relative doesn't have to be male to be entered into the CODIS database. For nucDNA testing, any close relative, male or female can submit a DNA swab for comparison.

And then there's mitochondrial (mtDNA) testing, which also can utilize the mtDNA from both males and females (provided that their familial chain that connects them consists of all female relatives.

If Jones was correct, then he wouldn't have been able to enter the female UID's in CODIS because they don't have a Y chromosome.

I wonder how many female MP family members have been told incorrectly by Jones that they cannot submit DNA to CODIS because they are not male.

[Ambercat]

Recently, I e-mailed John Garcia, one of the owners of Ripples inquiring if they had used a PAID stamp on customers' right hand in 1978. He responded that he couldn't remember if they had or not. After looking at the reconstruction of the UID and reading the Press Telegram article, he said this about the UID --

I read the article you sent me and that person you talk about could have been one of my customers back then, but I just am not able to positively say that he was. Maybe if there were more pictures that we could see I just might be able to help out, but with just this photo is an almost impossibility.

Ripples is on Ocean Blvd at Granada, about 4 blocks from where the unidentified young man was found.
http://goo.gl/maps/Igx8

In the past, I read that John Doe "Wilmington," Edward Daniel Moore, Paul Fuchs, and Kevin Clark Bailey (previously John Doe "Airplane Hill") were believed to have been seen at Ripples prior to being found strangled (probably there are other victims of Randy Kraft who had gone there as well, these are the only young men I can think of off the top of my head). Also, Keith Crotwell was last seen alive at the parking lot on the other side of Ocean Blvd.

[CarlK90245]

Did you send him the postmortem and my recon?

WARNING - POSTMORTEM PHOTO AT LINK
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/...00x600Q851.jpg

I wish I had saved the pm of John Doe Wilmington when it was still up on the LA Co Coroner website.

[Ambercat]

Originally Posted by CarlK90245

Did you send him the postmortem and my recon?

WARNING - POSTMORTEM PHOTO AT LINK
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/...00x600Q851.jpg

I wish I had saved the pm of John Doe Wilmington when it was still up on the LA Co Coroner website.

I sent him a link to your reconstruction; I was a bit hesitant to send him the actual postmortem.

I know what you mean about John Doe Wilmington. There's something about him that doesn't come through on the reconstructions.

[Ambercat]

Recently, I noticed Jean Vincent on the Doe Network who was from Canada, but was last seen in April 1978 in Arizona. Even though he was 20 years old when he went missing, there is something about him that really reminds me of this UID.

http://doenetwork.org/cases/3758dmon.html

[Cymro]

1 year and 1 inch outside the age range. Other looks are similar, as is weight.

Circumstances are not inconsistent - three months between disappearance and location of the body, and involving someone who took off 6 hours in one direction to look for a job... if that didn't work out, he could easily have ended up 6 hours in another direction, especially if his choices were go home or head to where the apparent prosperity is.

Good find!

[Ambercat]

I e-mailed Daniel Machian (from the LA County Coroner's office) and the Missing Persons Department at the Ottawa Police asking if they could be the same person. Clines Corner (Torrance County), NM is sort of an unusual place to go to look for a job. I wonder if he had met someone in Flagstaff who offered him something there or if it was an advertisement or ???

On a side note, I really believe that the UID that this tread is about was murdered by Randy Kraft. If the UID is in fact Jean Vincent, it adds another dimension to the "Vince M" notation on his list for Vincent Cruz Mestas (and why Mr. Mestas wasn't listed as simply Vince).

[elliha]

I keep going back in my mind to thinking that this perhaps wasn't a club stamp. A stamp saying 'paid' seems like something you would have at a store at that time. My father certainly used one still when I was a teen (1990s) to stamp records of customers having paid for the item in full. I would believe that this would not be something used by a professional club but perhaps by a person having a private party but perhaps having an entrance fee to pay for beer or something like that and the stamp was really for a business. I would really like to see a picture of the stamp mark to see what type of stamp it was...

[carbuff]

Originally Posted by elliha

I keep going back in my mind to thinking that this perhaps wasn't a club stamp. A stamp saying 'paid' seems like something you would have at a store at that time. My father certainly used one still when I was a teen (1990s) to stamp records of customers having paid for the item in full. I would believe that this would not be something used by a professional club but perhaps by a person having a private party but perhaps having an entrance fee to pay for beer or something like that and the stamp was really for a business. I would really like to see a picture of the stamp mark to see what type of stamp it was...

That's a good point. Clubs would be much more likely to use something with the date on it, so you couldn't use last night's stamp to get into tonight's show.

Wonder if that's something Kraft would have done to be funny -- pick up a guy turning tricks for money and then stamp him "paid" after the murder.

[carbuff]

Originally Posted by Cymro

1 year and 1 inch outside the age range. Other looks are similar, as is weight.

Circumstances are not inconsistent - three months between disappearance and location of the body, and involving someone who took off 6 hours in one direction to look for a job... if that didn't work out, he could easily have ended up 6 hours in another direction, especially if his choices were go home or head to where the apparent prosperity is.

Good find!

I agree.

Here's a map that shows Flagstaff AZ, Cline's Corner NM, and the spot where the body was found in Long Beach. Cline's Corner is a gas station/trading post/etc. founded by Roy Cline back when I-10 was Route 6 and then Route 66, and moved several times to stay near the highway. It's a major intersection out in the middle of nowhere, with a lot of tourist business and truck traffic all year round (http://www.theroadwanderer.net/66NMex/clines.htm). It's a very likely place to have gone looking for work.

I think there was also a considerable amount of highway and dam construction going on in the New Mexico/Arizona area at that time.

https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=F...t=h&mra=ls&z=6

[Ambercat]

I heard back from Daniel Machain from the LA County Coroner. I guess the possibility of this UID being Jean Vincent is an idea that's been around for awhile --

We received an inquiry in July 2012 on this possible match. Ottawa authorities were contacted at that time and they were going to follow-up on this case and they would contact us when they have completed their investigation.

I wonder how long investigations like this usually take?