TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

Arnie M said:

Have the police ever mentioned if they have any articles of Kathy's clothing , or fluid specimens that could be tested for DNA ?? ..... I have read most of the articles and did not see it mentioned.

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they keep mentioning DNA, but they never said where they got it. besides her clothing, there was a physical examination of her body (not an autopsy and they missed the half sock down her throat). maybe something found then? this is when the coroner determined time and cause of death.

nerosleuth, i was replying to yours and fell asleep. so I lost my reply.. sigh..but I will reconstruct it..

holiday weekends are an advantage to the killer maybe?
.police are pulled from normal duties (sometimes) for holiday duties... traffic, traffic accidents, security
.detectives may have days off.. their department lightly staffed
.media covering holiday stories, running shorter editions... or advertisements mostly
. senior reporters, etc probably have days off
.public may be less likely to read the paper in the early days
.families out of their normal routines
.a strange car or person may not be noticed
.heavier traffic may 'conceal' a car parked somewhere odd
.businesses operating different hours
.houses or properties might be temporarily vacant

but this would imply someone methodical.

they would plan the crime, but what about the victim? maybe the victim is the random element. or maybe not... she may have be preselected and how long he has to wait to find her alone varies.

there are the stables (probably not being used then) on the large Dunn property (zoo). I have been thinking about.

the military ... so, you're thinking active not a veteran? or a veteran? or just similar people? or someone who visits different family or friends?

looking at the map, I could not help notice that Bowling Green, Kentucky is closer than the East Tennessee and West Tennessee locations.

is there anyone here who could drive in 1969? how stringent were cops bout checking licenses? because I was thinking that killer had to be at least 16 since I m pretty sure he used a car. but maybe he just neededto Look 16. would not speeding mean he'd be really uunlikely to be pulled over?

sigh my phone sometimes types what it wants, please excuse me.

Thanks bessie

I am sure everyone else has zeroed in on these words from the detectives


“ [Miller] and Detective Postiglione started going through the files and looking into the evidence and actually ran some polygraphs.”

The evidence they uncovered, Miller believes, is solid. So solid, in fact, that it led to the killer. Miller cannot say what that evidence is. “At this point in time, we feel certain we know who killed her.... This man is living in Nashville and works every day.”

For Miller, the case against the man he thinks killed Kathy Jones is extremely frustrating. The suspect is here, close at hand. “I saw him about two months ago,” says Miller. “I keep in touch with him and let him know that we won’t go away. I would love to think he’ll feel guilty and confess, but a lot of these people don’t have a conscience.”

Miller says he has impressed upon the suspect that the police are not giving up. He says he told him, “Don’t get comfortable.”

“The last time I talked to him,” Miller says, “he smiled at me and walked away.”

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733

december ... you are wonderful , and thank you for keeping the memory of Kathy , it means she is not all alone and not forgotten.

Thank you to websleuths who provide this forum and featured Kathy as a cold case unsolved

I pray for the hand of the miraculous upon the detectives

nerosleuth .... what bessie said .... we appreciate your systematic approach , well done !!

Arnie M said:

december ... you are wonderful , and thank you for keeping the memory of Kathy , it means she is not all alone and not forgotten.

Thank you to websleuths who provide this forum and featured Kathy as a cold case unsolved

I pray for the hand of the miraculous upon the detectives

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Thank you, Arnie M.

I have cursed myself many times for not running all of this through a search engine when I lived in Nashville.

I could have easily gone to every single one of these places then. Now, it is much more difficult (presently impossible, for various reasons).

I thought it happened in a different part of town, partly because this is where I knew Nora to live. I didn't consider that she must have moved away from the area where she lived when Kathy died. And there was a skating rink and a KK near where she lived (when I can remember), so this is all part of that. I avoided that side of town.. it wasn't close to me anyway.

The same things were told in my family. These things are not in the newspapers we have in this thread. I don't know if they were in newspapers at all. We did not get our information from the media. We got it from the police.

So, it is a little different than what we see in a few of the papers. Well, o.k., the Banner. It seems to be the odd paper out. Which, makes sense to me, honestly.. knowing the Banner.

But, I could have gone to the library. I could have gone to the very offices of The Tennessean and demanded to see their morgue. I went there for other reasons (my job).

I guess I thought some of my other family were doing things with the police and I didn't want to interfere. I guess I thought we had to do things a certain way. No one in my family could stand to discuss Kathy for very long... it was worse than the newspapers are saying. Even the Scene, where the writer really did try to give the reader an idea of what is was like, cannot touch it.

There are a couple of people I could talk to who would remember more than me. But, no one likes to talk about this stuff in my family. No one has forgotten Kathy, but no one likes to go into what we know because we all know the same things..

And one of the the things we know more than anything else is this: UNSOLVED.

Nonetheless, I believe the police TRIED. And are trying, intermittently, to solve it.

With my friend's murder, the police more or less let the public think it was a cold case (as in ice cold) when it wasn't. They were constantly amassing evidence. They said a little bit about having DNA. Then they let the media run a story because there is one thing they couldn't find. The story produced that "one thing" when a witness called them. The murderer was pretty surprised when he was arrested and extradicted zippy quick.

I hope the same thing is going on with Kathy's case.. that the police have a bunch of the pieces and are waiting for one more thing to click. But, at this rate, the murderer might drop dead of old age before it happens...

I hope your prayers are answered and the police get whatever it is they are waiting for.. and Kathy gets justice.

Arnie M said:

Thanks bessie

I am sure everyone else has zeroed in on these words from the detectives


“ [Miller] and Detective Postiglione started going through the files and looking into the evidence and actually ran some polygraphs.”

The evidence they uncovered, Miller believes, is solid. So solid, in fact, that it led to the killer. Miller cannot say what that evidence is. “At this point in time, we feel certain we know who killed her.... This man is living in Nashville and works every day.”

For Miller, the case against the man he thinks killed Kathy Jones is extremely frustrating. The suspect is here, close at hand. “I saw him about two months ago,” says Miller. “I keep in touch with him and let him know that we won’t go away. I would love to think he’ll feel guilty and confess, but a lot of these people don’t have a conscience.”

Miller says he has impressed upon the suspect that the police are not giving up. He says he told him, “Don’t get comfortable.”

“The last time I talked to him,” Miller says, “he smiled at me and walked away.”

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-killing-a-search-a-suspect/Content?oid=1182733

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Pat Postligione has retired not so long ago.

However, he was good at cold case. He would go through them from the beginning and look at the details and try to figure out if anything had been missed or didn't fit or was just flat out wrong.

This is why I do believe the time of death of noon Dec. 1. I think it is possible it is off by a few hours.. due to the way it was determined, that would not be too unusual. But, I mean maybe four hours either way at most. I don't think it could be off by a whole lot.

For one thing, there is wild life even in a city (trying to phrase delicately). So, I don't think she could have been in the lot very long. Which I am kind of glad in a way. I hate to think of her lying there.. after everything else that had happened..unfound for long.

This is briefly mentioned in some article, but it was a thing.. someone official was with her all or most of the time until she was buried. Also, the man from the funeral home.. he stayed with her, even forgoing sleep to be with her body to protect her. Now, he is not an official person, but he is a potential witness. If anyone tried to do anything out of the way with her body, he would have seen that attempt.

I am just sort of adding thoughts that the article you quoted brings up.. I have a lot of thoughts kind of going through my head. I've prayed about this case. Just trying to think what I can find...

Thank you for your interest in finding justice for Kathy.

Thank you to everyone who has posted. And to everyone who is reading.
Love, December

http://search.proquest.com/tennessean/docview/239904415/14117FD3E153F0AE459/1?accountid=33208

The victim was walking to a Thompson Lane roller rink in her Woodbine neighborhood on a cold Nov. 29 when she was bound, sexually assaulted, choked and killed by having one of her own socks stuffed down her throat.

Now, this is from an editorial writer at The Tennessean writing in 2008 in response to a question from a reader who was a friend of Kathy's and wondered what had happened with the case.

However, CHOKED. This is the first reference in print I have seen to that.

The writer here, btw, is trying to be delicate in the way he phrases things. So, it sounds less involved than it was. But, he mentions specifically that she was also choked.

So, this brings us right back to nerosleuth's question.. was her neck broken?

Did the partial sock really suffocate her or was it incidential to the fact she suffocated because her neck was broken? (The sock did not help her breathing, obviously.) I don't know if they ever intended to stick it all the way down her throat or not. Maybe they were too rough with her when they gagged her and pushed it down father than they intended or maybe she sucked it down her throat trying to draw breath. Or maybe they did intend to kill her that way. Maybe they just were hurting her all sorts of ways and she died. (yes, this is all horrible to type)

Here is what Pat Postligione (until recently head of Cold Case Homicides) wrote in an email in 2008 to the writer of The Tennessean article:
"I have personally worked on this case and clearly understand what horror this young girl must have gone through," he wrote in an e-mail. "Because of new DNA technology, which as you know is constantly evolving, there is real hope that we can solve this particular case."

The article also mentions that Micky Miller felt they had a strong suspect, but lacked the evidence to arrest him.

Oh, and The Tennessean article quoted above (by George Zepp) definitely mentions roller skateS. So, there is media confirmation both skates were there... I believe one landed a closer to her than the other one.

I really believe the murderer had all of her stuff in a paper grocery sack. He threw her down and threw all her stuff down. The grocery sack is speculation on my part, but that would be a way to keep all of her stuff together and get rid of it quickly. He didn't leave the sack because maybe it was a clue.

I think her things made him made somehow.. her little white skates which were used, but looked pristine and new. Her Christmas gloves and winter coat. Her clean blouse and clean white panties. Her purse with its Bible and playing cards. Her bobbie socks. These things infruriated him. Here was a little girl dressed up like someone who was cared about and he wanted to defile her. So, he did in every imaginable way that was in his power.

I don't think bobbie socks were necessarily in style any more in 1969. But, Kathy was a kid and kids wear different things from adults so maybe kids still wore them. Or maybe they were good to wear with skates.

But, the bobbie socks.. maybe those had a special significance to the murderer? (speculation)

December said:

this crime took a long time. it was detailed. the binding. the severe raping. the beating. the taunting stabbings. the puncture wound.

there wasn't that much blood at the scene. I have always been told that she had been dead for a while before being transported.

also that she was dumped quickly. to me her clothes sound like they were wadded into a paper grocery sack and dumped out beside and on her.

a thing that argues that the attack was not on the lot is the pristine condition of her roller skate. it was right behind her. if she'd been killed there, wouldn't it be bloody?

we did not invent the idea all of this took time and that she did not die quickly. the police told us. and they told the scene the same thing.

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I believe that Kathy was abducted and taken somewhere. I also believe that Kathy was brutally violated and murdered at another location before her body was dumped in the field behind the donut store.

I took a good look at the aerial photo of the field behind the donut store. I noticed an alley going from McClain Avenue and Thompson Lane that is between Grandview Avenue and Nolensville Pike.

If the donut store was opened 24 hours back then, there likely would have been vehicles going by or people walking thru that alley. I doubt her killer would risk being heard or seen in a field that’s so close to the donut store and alley.

The field that Kathy was found in was reported to be waist high weeds.

If she was attacked in the field behind the donut store, I believe that there would have been signs of disturbance in the grass.

Were any dirt, mud, or grass stains ever found on Kathy’s clothing or body?

I'm wondering if there anything from Kathy's belongings that were missing?

Could the killer have kept something that belonged to Kathy as a trophy?

December said:

)

the military ... so, you're thinking active not a veteran? or a veteran? or just similar people? or someone who visits different family or friends?

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As for the military angle, I say both active and veteran members of the military cannot be ruled out. There is a possibility that the killer may have belonged to a special forces unit in the military.

I’m keeping in mind that the Vietnam War was going on during that era as troops were being sent to the Southeast Asian region. Military troops stationed there likely encountered adult female and underage female prostitutes.

The possibility exists that someone serving in the military in that region around that era may have developed a preference for underage girls after returning home from the war.

Since the crime occurred during a national holiday weekend, if the killer was in the military, the killer likely had a pass to leave the military base around that time.

Now it doesn’t mean that the killer came from the nearest military base. The killer could have traveled from an distant out of state military base.

And it is also possible that the killer may not have ever served in the military at all when the murders took place. The possibility exists that the killer could have been in the area during a national holiday weekend to visit family or friends.

December said:

Her being murdered right there isn't exactly comforting. I've freaked out really badly over it... being murdered this close to houses and businesses. this crime took a long time. it was detailed. the binding. the severe raping. the beating. the taunting stabbings. the puncture wound.

there wasn't that much blood at the scene. I have always been told that she had been dead for a while before being transported.

also that she was dumped quickly. to me her clothes sound like they were wadded into a paper grocery sack and dumped out beside and on her.

a thing that argues that the attack was not on the lot is the pristine condition of her roller skate. it was right behind her. if she'd been killed there, wouldn't it be bloody?

we did not invent the idea all of this took time and that she did not die quickly. the police told us. and they told the scene the same thing.

ETwhile meaning long enough she was Not bleeding hheavily also she died from suffocation as well

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No, blood wouldn't necessarily be on the skate. There's no mention of blood on her "white underwear...wadded against her chest", either. Maybe that tells us something, too.

There's no doubt Kathy suffered a horrific, beastly assault. Literally, as I type bile is rising to my throat, and anger and disgust churn in my gut. It's that very same feeling which forces me to follow so many cold cases with a prayer that if we keep talking about them, and raising questions, we can pique interest. A LE officer somewhere might be enticed to review an old file, or a person withholding information might be encouraged to come forward. So while all of this talk can sound crass, it's not without purpose, and that purpose is NOT to exploit.

December, the one thing I always hear from family members is the hope that the attack was swift, and the loved one's suffering was not prolonged. Thankfully, that is often true. A determined predator can do many horrible things in a relatively short period of time. If I've caused you distress by seeking out that possibility in Kathy's case, then I apologize. I will push the idea off to the side.

I've read only one article which alludes to Kathy "apparently" being held captive. It's not a direct quote, and sounds like an assumption based on COD and TOD (which could be off by a day or longer due to the low temperatures and himidity).
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=e1FPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PSQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4627%2C5631238

The other reports I've read don't mention the duration of the attack or a separate location. Assuming there were three crime scenes, (1. point of abduction; 2. attack location; and 3. the lot), do you believe there's a reason LE wanted to withhold that information from the public?

bessie said:

No, blood wouldn't necessarily be on the skate. There's no mention of blood on her "white underwear...wadded against her chest", either. Maybe that tells us something, too.

There's no doubt Kathy suffered a horrific, beastly assault. Literally, as I type bile is rising to my throat, and anger and disgust churn in my gut. It's that very same feeling which forces me to follow so many cold cases with a prayer that if we keep talking about them, and raising questions, we can pique interest. A LE officer somewhere might be enticed to review an old file, or a person withholding information might be encouraged to come forward. So while all of this talk can sound crass, it's not without purpose, and that purpose is NOT to exploit.

December, the one thing I always hear from family members is the hope that the attack was swift, and the loved one's suffering was not prolonged. Thankfully, that is often true. A determined predator can do many horrible things in a relatively short period of time. If I've caused you distress by seeking out that possibility in Kathy's case, then I apologize. I will push the idea off to the side.

I've read only one article which alludes to Kathy "apparently" being held captive. It's not a direct quote, and sounds like an assumption based on COD and TOD (which could be off by a day or longer due to the low temperatures and himidity).
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=e1FPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PSQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4627%2C5631238

The other reports I've read don't mention the duration of the attack or a separate location. Assuming there were three crime scenes, (1. point of abduction; 2. attack location; and 3. the lot), do you believe there's a reason LE wanted to withhold that information from the public?

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I do not know why they would want to withhold that information except for the fact they have never found that location.

It's not that I want her attack to be drawn out, it's just that I hate to think of all of those things happening to her right there. And her knowing people were just right there.

Also, I think due to bruises having formed, that the attack wasn't swift.

I really envy people whose family members were shot because I wish the person who killed Kathy and the person who killed my friend (two different criminals) had just shot them. But, they both were horribly killed.

The thing is, my friend WAS killed in one night. And a lot of weird things happened to her in that one night. So, I keep comparing the crimes back and forth and thinking of the differences between them.

My friend was in a kind of remote location and she was not missing all that long. There was an attempt at concealing her (a not very good attempt). But, she still didn't lay there for days. So, with Kathy being right there in the middle of everything and unconcealed except for some weeds, I don't think she could have been there all that long.

Oops I have to go. I am sick and have been asleep all day

I will answer more later

Love
December

https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&layer=c&z=17&iwloc=A&sll=36.112014,-86.747205&cbp=13,19.4,0,0,0&cbll=36.111994,-86.747214&q=2806+Grandview+Avenue+Nashville,+TN&ei=_ihbUsKoKISH2gXe7oH4DA&ved=0CC8QxB0wAA

Here is a street view of 2806 Grandview Avenue (the empty lot).

December said:

Oh, and The Tennessean article quoted above (by George Zepp) definitely mentions roller skateS. So, there is media confirmation both skates were there... I believe one landed a closer to her than the other one.

I really believe the murderer had all of her stuff in a paper grocery sack. He threw her down and threw all her stuff down. The grocery sack is speculation on my part, but that would be a way to keep all of her stuff together and get rid of it quickly. He didn't leave the sack because maybe it was a clue.

I think her things made him made somehow.. her little white skates which were used, but looked pristine and new. Her Christmas gloves and winter coat. Her clean blouse and clean white panties. Her purse with its Bible and playing cards. Her bobbie socks. These things infruriated him. Here was a little girl dressed up like someone who was cared about and he wanted to defile her. So, he did in every imaginable way that was in his power.

I don't think bobbie socks were necessarily in style any more in 1969. But, Kathy was a kid and kids wear different things from adults so maybe kids still wore them. Or maybe they were good to wear with skates.

But, the bobbie socks.. maybe those had a special significance to the murderer? (speculation)

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Just replying to your comment.
What about her street shoes? Did they find them?

Now that he is retired, do you think Pat Postligione would talk to you about Kathy's case?

:+:MrTT:+: said:

Just replying to your comment.
What about her street shoes? Did they find them?

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I have the memory they were thrown in the weeds, however, this could be wrong because it came to me later.

i have a call in to the cold case division... so, i'll ask them when the call back because that is a very good question.