Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #16

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Kat said:
I'm going to play around with your hypothesizing and throw some ideas out there and if you want you can give me feedback (I really like this part of being a member of WS! It's what we all do best IMHO!).

Of course all of the below is also hypothesizing and my humble thoughts due to change as more details and facts come out.

Right he would have possibly grabbed her by the throat and then driven his elbow into her face. (sorry to put that so harshly).

He says she hit her head and the next thing he knows she is on the floor. Did she get the injury to the back of her head (IIRC she had one too, if not I apologize) when she hit the wall, headboard, nightstand..etc. because of the force of the blow from his elbow threw her back and he lost grip on her neck? Or was the floor of the room carpeted or non-carpeted and she hit her head on a bare floor if it was not.

Then he states as above the next thing he knew she was on the floor. (or course we can't trust a word out of this man's mouth-disclaimer!) He either sat on her chest or knelt on her chest. Effectively limiting her ability to fight back. Did he also push her down with his one of his hands to hold her still while she while injured from the initial blow attempted to fight him off thereby possibly scratching her ownself? IMHO she would have been disoriented and in extreme pain and incapacitated to effectively defend herself if it is true he struck her in the face with an elbow and then proceeded to sit on her.

Then he could have delivered as many blows as he felt was needed. Creating her other injuries and COD.

Ugh, like I said earlier (not directed at Bobarino) he is one of the sickest individuals I've seen in a very long time. Not ill---just sick.
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Thanks. Good to try to see if we can come up with something of value. difficult to do knowing how he lies all the time, especially now when he has so much at stake.

One thing off the top. Did you catch yestrday when 1 or 2 pics of a swollen left hand pointer finger knuckle were found and shown here? This swelling does not appear to be on the video ar Lima Police intake. Not sure how much later that is?) So the greatest blow to her face may thus have been with his left fist, and not the elbow. The elbow is massive and would not likely sustain injury unlike a knuckle striking something hard, which coul deasily break.

If NG's supposition of scratches on SR's face or chin are accurate, the strangling may have occurred first, and he is lying again about the sequence. Not sure why he would except that maybe he wants to hide anything that indicates he was trying to rob her before she died.

The massive facial injury would indicate unconciousness at that time--if not before. He may not have had to throw her to floor, as she would have gone limp. So carpet burns, we may not be able to tell came from trying to move her before or after death.

I think her pants and shoe removal was most likely when he momentarily thought of taking the body out, either to a stairwell or such, or if he was checking tidal parameters, as has been suggested, maybe he thought of taking her body to the ocean, a la Holloway. But he didn't carry this thought past the pants removal. Maybe too much work for him. Or he couldn't cut her into pieces like he may have wanted to.

Note that the report indicates part of a finger was cut off.

Did he attempt to see what he could do with whatever knife he had there, and saw that just a finger was difficult to cut, and gave up?

The above is the first I have suggested a reason for a partially removed finger. And I have not heard anyone else suggest this. Others have said he may have grabbed her keys from her hand even while she was alive causing that. I think what I suggested may be more likely--but I may be prejudiced.

Anyway, those are my thoughts and updates for you for now.
 
Bobarino said:
And most people can safely and happily eat wheat and dairy too.

But others have documented schizophrenia result when they do. The point to this is everyone is an individual and a small percentage of people have severe reactions, and such reactions are not limited to hives, they include psychotic and criminal behavior among a small percentage of people.
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My brother started smoking marijuana when he was 17, he smoked it almost every day until he was 32. By then he was very unstable, paranoid and depressed. He'd lost every job because of lack of anger management and had been given an OTH (other then honorable) discharge from the military because of recreational drug use. Before he used marijuana he was a normal, sensitive, gentle kid who was very bright. I know it was the marijuana that finally fried his brains. Why him and not the hundreds of others who smoked it for years? He had a system that couldn't tolerate chemicals. Both myself and my sister are very med-sensitive it must be in our family's genetic make-up. I can't even have one drink with losing my balance and feeling sick; a date accused me of being dramatic and putting on an act until I suddenly threw-up. I stepped on a rusty nail and went for a tetanus shot, in the middle of exams, the doctor told me it would have no side effects and I got so dizzy and couldn't thing straight and blew the exam - like the professor would have believed it from a tetanus shot! Everyone is different and drugs are accumulative in the body. By-the-way my brother ended his life one night in the depth of a depressive episode. They are putting legalizing marijuana on the ballot in California, after watching it take down my brother, I'm against it. Everyone smoked weed when I was in college, most probably quit and went on to productive lives some are still smoking today and still have productive lives - but not everyone. Not my brother.

I don't give anyone a pass if they do something illegal under the influence of drugs, their actions are the result of a decision they have made to screw up their brains. I do wonder how no drugs were found in Joran's blood work. He had been using amphetamines too and for some people they also cause out of control behavior. Why were there no traces of that chemical?
 
epiphany said:
Yes, I see. What about the bruises to both of her feet? If on her soles, defensive injury? And if on the top of both feet, he may have stood on them (she was positioned up against wall) at some point for better control?
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The bruises to her feet could simply be her struggling and stomping them onto the ground while he positioned himself on top of her chest to position the white shirt over her mouth.

That would also explain the extreme bruising to her mediastinum. She was still actively struggling while he was on top of her (even after head trauma and stangulation). JMHO
 
Woe.be.gone said:
Yes and now I'm grateful. And I know sometimes we are comparing apples to oranges but who knows when a bad seed is born versus when an adventurous seed if you will takes off in a wrong direction because nobody is paying attention or stops him in his tracks.

What is perplexing about Joran, and I wish we knew if the stories are indeed fact or do we?, if the report is true that he killed his own dog? As a mother, that would totally freak me out and we would be in intensive therapy immediately and for a long time. Then the man over a bridge incident - that's murder too. What were the ramifications to Joran for that? Are these things true? If so, this is serious stuff - not normal teenage stuff at all. Drug experimentation and a few wrong turns here and there are often overcome imo but the kind of stuff we are hearing about Joran is over the top. I never heard these details when following the NH case over normal T.V. reporting.

If he is indeed mentally ill why hasn't something been done about him before this? What should one do in these cases? My heart goes out to people whose children are struggling where it seems there is no happy end in sight for them or their parents. At some point one would have to let go to a certain extent I would think. Almost like a death.

Regarding policing our own, my dad's mom had a friend - this would have been way before WWll, everywhere the friend went along came her mother but she was a grown woman. It turns out the younger woman was a kleptomaniac and would always try to steal something from her hostess. Her mother caught on to this so she never could let her go anywhere alone. Other than that, she was a nice lady. :crazy: I think so many problems are made worse when we avoid admitting that there is an elephant in the room.
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I posted this earlier today. There were definite signs early on that he needed help. I think his parents just didn't carry through on all the treatment / therapy / medication that he needed.

"Peter R. de Vries believes that there was a possible 'impulsive' action. According to him, Van der Sloot in his youth already struggling to curb his aggression. "He went to a psychologist because he abused his brother. Later he was arrested because he was a drifter had thrown off a bridge. He himself is not under control. "

http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article1386606.ece/Prototype_van_een_klassieke_psychopaat

MOO
 
dolly1 said:
My brother started smoking marijuana when he was 17, he smoked it almost every day until he was 32. By then he was very unstable, paranoid and depressed. He'd lost every job because of lack of anger management and had been given an OTH (other then honorable) discharge from the military because of recreational drug use. Before he used marijuana he was a normal, sensitive, gentle kid who was very bright. I know it was the marijuana that finally fried his brains. Why him and not the hundreds of others who smoked it for years? He had a system that couldn't tolerate chemicals. Both myself and my sister are very med-sensitive it must be in our family's genetic make-up. I can't even have one drink with losing my balance and feeling sick; a date accused me of being dramatic and putting on an act until I suddenly threw-up. I stepped on a rusty nail and went for a tetanus shot, in the middle of exams, the doctor told me it would have no side effects and I got so dizzy and couldn't thing straight and blew the exam - like the professor would have believed it from a tetanus shot! Everyone is different and drugs are accumulative in the body. By-the-way my brother ended his life one night in the depth of a depressive episode. They are putting legalizing marijuana on the ballot in California, after watching it take down my brother, I'm against it. Everyone smoked weed when I was in college, most probably quit and went on to productive lives some are still smoking today and still have productive lives - but not everyone. Not my brother.

I don't give anyone a pass if they do something illegal under the influence of drugs, their actions are the result of a decision they have made to screw up their brains. I do wonder how no drugs were found in Joran's blood work. He had been using amphetamines too and for some people they also cause out of control behavior. Why were there no traces of that chemical?
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Excellent and very important post!

Did you see my post of a study on improvement in behavior and criminal acts among teens undergoing diet change?
 
Your opinion, Krowd: From start of attack to end - a few mins, or as long as 10-15 mins?
 
panthera said:
The only part I believe could've been staged was prisoners being kept out of the yard and in their cells while Jean was walking around with the camera crew. I wish they had interviewed Ospina though and asked how he enjoys sharing his tv with Joran. :D
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I was hoping that when JC encountered the guy who said, "He is one of us." that she would have asked him, "Oh, you killed someone too?" :crazy:
Jean was thinking, "okay then, adios amigo!"

But then there was that guy up in the barred window with a big knife cutting some wire (wth?). He wanted the knife to be captured by the camera evidently. I'm not sure he was thinking that Joran is one of them. Oh and the guard that made that cutting of the throat gesture - what was that about I wonder? Did he do that when JC and her crew drove by? It must have been related to JVS I would think.
 
Bobarino said:
Thanks. Good to try to see if we can come up with something of value. difficult to do knowing how he lies all the time, especially now when he has so much at stake.

One thing off the top. Did you catch yestrday when 1 or 2 pics of a swollen left hand pointer finger knuckle were found and shown here? This swelling does not appear to be on the video ar Lima Police intake.I did look at the photos and couldn't be completely certain that I saw swelling but I can't discount it either! Not sure how much later that is?) So the greatest blow to her face may thus have been with his left fist, and not the elbow. The elbow is massive and would not likely sustain injury unlike a knuckle striking something hard, which coul deasily break. I agree, he's a very large man especially in regard to Stephany's size, he could have easily delivered a left fist blow and hurt her even though he might be right handed. He could also be ambidextrous too.

If NG's supposition of scratches on SR's face or chin are accurate,I'm always wary of NG's interpretations, I do watch her show and respect that she brings these cases to the media but I watch mainly for her interviews with others :) the strangling may have occurred first, and he is lying again about the sequence. Not sure why he would except that maybe he wants to hide anything that indicates he was trying to rob her before she died.

The massive facial injury would indicate unconciousness at that time--if not before. He may not have had to throw her to floor, as she would have gone limp. So carpet burns, we may not be able to tell came from trying to move her before or after death.

I think her pants and shoe removal was most likely when he momentarily thought of taking the body out, either to a stairwell or such, or if he was checking tidal parameters, as has been suggested, maybe he thought of taking her body to the ocean, a la Holloway. But he didn't carry this thought past the pants removal. Maybe too much work for him.I agree he probably thought to dispose of her and it was probably too much work! Or he couldn't cut her into pieces like he may have wanted to.

Note that the report indicates part of a finger was cut off.

Did he attempt to see what he could do with whatever knife he had there, and saw that just a finger was difficult to cut, and gave up?He might have made a half hearted attempt to cut her up or didn't he say at first that their were masked men in this room when he and Stephany entered?

The above is the first I have suggested a reason for a partially removed finger. And I have not heard anyone else suggest this. Others have said he may have grabbed her keys from her hand even while she was alive causing that. I think what I suggested may be more likely--but I may be prejudiced.I think both suggestions are valid and will keep both in my mind as we find out more details

Anyway, those are my thoughts and updates for you for now.
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My responses to your post in red. Thanks for your thoughts---interesting to say the very least! :)
 
epiphany said:
Your opinion, Krowed: From start of attack to end - a few mins, or as long as 10-15 mins?
Click to expand...

I personally don't believe the attack took more than 5 minutes. Only because rage is usually spontaneous and it's very rare to stop rage and then start up again.

It has happened, as I have followed cases where torture went on for days. However, based on surveillance video, we have a relatively small time frame inre to Joran. His rage was instantaneous, and deadly. And then he fled. 5 minutes (no more than 8) in my opinion.

Have you ever made a 2 minute speech? It seems like a lifetime.
 
It was cold at the end of Geraldo when everyone agreed he won't last long in prison.
 
hollyblue said:
The only thing I can think of would be if she was thrown or fell from the bed and the mattress was already askewed and she fell on the wooden bed rail (if there is one) holding the box springs. If he then pounced/jumped on her, that would seem to make a long bruise/mark like that. ?
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-------------------------------------------------------
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5312297#post5312297"]Joran Van der Sloot Confesses to Murdering Stephany Flores Ramirez #10 - Page 31 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

I am thinking since the mattress was reported to be moved perhaps when he moving her body it scraped on that hard wood bed frame they showed on the room clip.

I thought almost the same thing..
 
Kat said:
My responses to your post in red. Thanks for your thoughts---interesting to say the very least! :)
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I don't watch TV lately.

And never saw much of NG. I don't know if she is given to hyperbole, like many of the talking heads usually are?

But NG says "No forefinger. That's an open wound."

Does anyone else know more on this finger injury? NG is implying part of the finger is gone. That is not a usualt type of injury from fighting/defending at all!

It is potentially important as if it really is missing, it may indicate what he may have tried toascertain how good a knife/cutter he had there. And it would go with pants removal. And if he had a knife, maybe the central torso would was a surface cutting too? Maybe the police there are deliberatley not telling us many things they immediately knew?

Or is NG greatly exagerating this injury?

I just have not been impressed with any of the experts or interviewers with this matter. There is the former FBI profiler,Ms. Brown--she keeps insisting that the whole thing occurred as she resisted him trying to force her down to do oral sex on him? Not sure her sticking with this is admirable. While I wrote a lengthy elbow hypothesis, I certainly would give it up if the evidence indicates a massive punch damaged her face, skull and bone. And 2 photos looked like very significant swelling on the knuckle area--like injuries I sustained when I broke boards with punches, only worse. Elbows--no problems/injuries. It's like a sledgehammer.

Anyway any thoughts on this

"No forefinger" matter? TIA

Above is MOO.
 
Woe.be.gone said:
I was hoping that when JC encountered the guy who said, "He is one of us." that she would have asked him, "Oh, you killed someone too?" :crazy:
Jean was thinking, "okay then, adios amigo!"

But then there was that guy up in the barred window with a big knife cutting some wire (wth?). He wanted the knife to be captured by the camera evidently. I'm not sure he was thinking that Joran is one of them. Oh and the guard that made that cutting of the throat gesture - what was that about I wonder? Did he do that when JC and her crew drove by? It must have been related to JVS I would think.
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Maybe, the slash-de-throat guard was footage of Drama Workshop - one of Castro C prisoner's during costume rehearsal.

Can't recall if guard was outside prison - think so. Dark sense of humor (dead-pan delivery) to tweak JeanC, camera crew and play-to-camera as they drive by or before they enter the building.
 
I lost the post! I saw a post where someone had asked if they could tell if the scratches and some of the bruising (IIRC the question correctly) were caused after death or before death.

Simply put, yes they can.

I'm reading another document right now and am reading the portion dealing with the ME of that County's testimony of the autopsy. He stated this in regard to wounds (abrasions and contusions on another victim with a subforum here as well).

Thought I would bring it here in case it could be applied also to the wounds (scratches and such) that Stephany had.

SNIPPED from a PDF doc:

..And if this had occurred post-mortem, it would not be of this color, because
this is what we call the vital response. And what does that mean? You see specific changes in a human body only when the human body is alive. The blood is still pumping through the body. And a red/pink vital response, within a reasonable degree of medical certainty, confirms that this is an abrasion/contusion in a living individual..
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Link to PDF that is not connected to this particular case :

http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/People_vs_Melissa_Huckaby_transcript_06_18_10.pdf

I brought here only to share with others that are not aware of this forensic application and also this ME's description of autopsy protocols is fascinating once you can get past the atrocity of that particular crime.

Again, not directly related to Stephany but could have been used to have a look at her wounds and tell if they were post-mortem or while she was alive. JFYI.
 
Kat said:
My responses to your post in red. Thanks for your thoughts---interesting to say the very least! :)
Click to expand...

After looking at the pic of the supposedly swollen finger, I'm more incline to think this is a distortion of some kind in the film. It looks like a "blurred out" section....also on seen on his jeans to the right of his hand. Was it an intentional blur or just a fluke? I don't think it was raining the day that was shot.... and we can't seem to find another to justify it.
 
Announced this week, no clothes were on the body when discovered. Do not know if that included panties, but stated no shirt and no jeans on body.
 
Kat said:
I lost the post! I saw a post where someone had asked if they could tell if the scratches and some of the bruising (IIRC the question correctly) were caused after death or before death.

Simply put, yes they can.

I'm reading another document right now and am reading the portion dealing with the ME of that County's testimony of the autopsy. He stated this in regard to wounds (abrasions and contusions on another victim with a subforum here as well).

Thought I would bring it here in case it could be applied also to the wounds (scratches and such) that Stephany had.

SNIPPED from a PDF doc:



Link to PDF that is not connected to this particular case :

http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/People_vs_Melissa_Huckaby_transcript_06_18_10.pdf

I brought here only to share with others that are not aware of this forensic application and also this ME's description of autopsy protocols is fascinating once you can get past the atrocity of that particular crime.

Again, not directly related to Stephany but could have been used to have a look at her wounds and tell if they were post-mortem or while she was alive. JFYI.
Click to expand...

Thanks. That's what I presumed. And that's why the NG link above I posted has some important stuff, that I hadn't seen before. It notes which bruises are red, and which are green e.g.. I think the feet discoloration was noted as green, from your excellent post just now, that would indicate bruising post-mortem. I have said, if this monster was brutal with her when she was alive, can you imagine how he treated her corpse?
 
I also feel like the scratches on her chin and knees happened at the same time. When Joran pulled her off the bed and onto the floor her chin and knees bared the brunt of the struggle. I think the talking head lady who indicates oral sex if FOS.

I'd just like to know if Stephany was pulled off that bed onto carpet or tile.

My opinion is that chin and knee injuries are from being dragged onto the floor.
 
krowdkat said:
I personally don't believe the attack took more than 5 minutes. Only because rage is usually spontaneous and it's very rare to stop rage and then start up again.

It has happened, as I have followed cases where torture went on for days. However, based on surveillance video, we have a relatively small time frame inre to Joran. His rage was instantaneous, and deadly. And then he fled. 5 minutes (no more than 8) in my opinion.

Have you ever made a 2 minute speech? It seems like a lifetime.
Click to expand...

I had thought early on that it was like a blitz attack. Do you think so too? Given the amount of rage that was behind the assault?
 
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