Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #14

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TwiceIrish said:
Which makes these cases so fascinating and provocative because we try so hard to compare rational actions and minds to people who think completely differently than we do.

I am not sure if psychopathic behavior is a result nature and nurture, or just nature, or just nurture. I've heard it all ways from many different psychiatrists and psychologists.

As they say if you ask 100 professionals a question, you'll end up with 150 different answers.
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well, one thing is for sure...its not the result of smoking, candy , grass and beer, either doing one or all, or not doing one or all.

neither is the confession. peruvians have quicker ways of getting to the area of the truth than withholding coffee and smokes. although the arubans probably never got to THAT level of "persuasion."

if you want to call it that. lots of folks (mentally disturbed folks) go thru all kinds of withdrawals without killing young girls. why is it always young girls? too much or not enough caffeen?

don't think so.
 
epiphany said:
. ...
The reasons why some hyoids fracture and others do not may relate to the nature and magnitude of force applied to the neck, age of the victim, nature of the instrument (ligature or hands) used to strangle, and intrinsic anatomic features of the hyoid bone.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8934706
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He did say that he strangled her for a minute and I believe was on top of her.

Looking at him and her...
 
I think that rumors about illegitimate half brothers of Joran are just that. Mass media cases generate these: Tiger Woods mistresses seem to be reproducing as we speak.

Similarly, I think that demonizing Joran's parents is easy, but ill-advised. At the time of the Holloway disappearance, he was generally regarded as an intelligent, relatively popular teenager who had been accepted to a fine college. Behind that image, he was a sleazy jerk who liked to pick up women tourists, a not uncommon trait in resort towns with bikini-clad women everywhere. At the time, he didn't have debts (indeed, he seems to have won money as a poker player) and he had no noticeable drug problems or school disciplinary record. That he gambled has different connotations in other cultures than it does here: I knew two Europeans who gambled as teenagers who went on to become well-adjusted MIT PH.Ds.

All that said, he seemed to have forever spun out of control with the Holloway encounter.
 
Bobarino said:
TwiceIrish:

I think Joran is a monster and killed both young women.

I think there is also much more going on here. I know a lot about deeper conspiratorial matters. And I think Joran was protected in Arruba. They probably gave him anything he wanted while being held there. If he couldn't resist when 22, I would imagine when only 17, if they really wanted to they would have gotten a confession out of him. Joran is a weak willed person when if comes down to it.

Look at his new casino playing partner, Hugo Trujillo Ospina. He didn't talk at all.

I read up on him last week. He refused to say a single word about his "alleged" crime. And his Daddy was not likely a lawyer. I am sure Joran's father told him a thousand times, if arrested keep your mouth shut. That is the most common phrase from an attorney. And the father knew all about the son, and people here think daddy aided him in criminal enterprise RE Holloway. And I wouldn't doubt it.

But as soon as the weak-willed Joran doesn't get some food or smokes, or cola or whatever, he can't help himself. Remember he has no remorse, so there is no guilt that would make him confess. But I also don't think he is the brightest bulb in the package. But fiddling with head, and starving him and depriving him of his addictions made him a very helpless puppy.
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It's an interesting theory and I hope you didn't think I was being rude towards you, just asking questions. I'm sure we all have many different theories about what happened, what might have happened, what could have happened, what did happen, and what's about to happen.

It's interesting to kick around ideas and I wasn't trying to be snarky with you so hope my posts didn't come across that way.

:angel:
 
Unreals said:
It appears that Anita has been struggling to raise enough money to fly to Peru. This would indicate that the late, "influential" Paulus Van der Sloot somehow ran through what should have been a substantial fortune, and evidently left his family unable to even afford the cost of a plane ticket.

Anita is an art teacher, so she obviously doesn't make a large salary. Just wanted to point all this out, to counter the constant mantra in the media about how "Daddy" pulled strings for Joran in Aruba, somehow getting the top officials to "cover up" his son's guilt, because the family was so "influential," rich and powerful.
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bolded by me. the first part of your statement does NOT "counter" the second part. at all. in fact, it is certainly possible daddy ran out of money trying to cover JVDS bloody tracks.

but the fact is, you didn't "counter" anything by pointing out that Anita needs help to get to Peru.
 
Any comments on the study I cited above on diet change that led to halting or diminshing of criminal behavior?
 
TwiceIrish:

I did not interpret your comments or questions as negative at all. No worries!

And how could I ever be mad at anyone who is TwiceIrish?
 
Cottages said:
You don't say why you don't agree. I'm not sure how to respond to just a conclusory opinion statement. What do you base your opinion on? You think he's a faker? (certainly *could be*) Also, please know that I actually said "it appeared...he developed," so let me know why you don't think so. I'm open :). I am always eager to learn!!!

The interviews with his family members indicate schizophrenia: perfectly normal until he became perfectly strange, seemingly overnight. And the symptoms: anger out of absolutely nowhere (not even rejection or another's disapproving expression), extreme paranoia (hence the term Paranoid Schizophrenia), audio hallucinations, significant reality loss, etc., indicate schizophrenia. Moreover, schizophrenia meds help him. Big indicator there too. For example, if you don't know if a emotional dysregulation issue is from BPD or bi-polar, give the person Lithium or Prozac. If Prozac exacerbates, it's bi-polar. If Lithum does nothing, it's BPD (of course this is "generally;" co-morbidities & genetics account for differences in outcome).

Okay, so I just looked Mitten up (which I really didn't have time to do, but wondered if I missed something...) At trial, the State presented 2 psychiatrists as did Mitten. All 4 say Mitten is/was definitely mentally ill and all 4 say either definitely or probably schizophrenia.

The jury did not necessarily think he was faking, though, just because he was found guilty (i.e., they didn't necessarily dismiss 4 M.D.'s) since schizophrenia does not mean one doesn't know right from wrong. Texas uses the McMaughten insanity test which is an extremely difficult standard for insanity (recall one Texas jury didn't think Andrea Yates met the standard, and if she wasn't insane, no one is). That is to say, they probably shouldn't even refer to the McNaughten test as an "insanity" test. It's more of an objective legal standard than a semi-subjective psychiatric standard. If Texas used either the Sudden Impulse or the MPC (combo) standard, Mitten probably would have been acquitted.

Interestingly, like Yates, Mitten didn't clean up, remove fingerprints, get rid of clothes, put the body in the trunk, leave town. He took his mom to the emergency room. Very atypical behavior.

Still open though. Why don't you agree with schizophrenia?
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I'm curious as to where you're getting the reports about his family stating that Joran was perfectly normal and then wasn't, had hallucinations and was taking Lithium. I've not heard any of this before but did not follow the NH case other than on mainstream media and watched the movie based on her case on TV and now here.

A recent friend of Joran was on NG the other night and mentions nothing about any odd behavior. In fact, he states Joran is 'normal' and 'a nice guy'. We know that's not true but imo, a person suffering schizophrenia cannot hide it easily. One would notice that their language or should I say story telling would be bazaar and outlandish. The paranoid refers to ideas that, for instance, aliens will be taking over our government any day now or already are functioning among us (maybe they know something we don't know?). They will ramble on about their own theories, mixing various truths/history with disconnected outlandish predictions - free association type ramblings that when you are normal, you flat out know something is wrong. He would have demonstrated this type of talk to people other than his family members. Are there others who have observed JVS acting this way?
 
mck16 said:
A panelist on JVM, can't remember her name, but she has written a book on Joran, said he has an illigitimate brother alledgedly that is a drug dealer. He is known by the name of some drug. Maybe Ectasy. Not sure.

I shouldn't have posted this as my facts are goofy. But, JVM said he was welcome to come on the show and dispute what this person said about him. He also has a younger brother at home.

I have not heard this any other place and did not bring it up here because it seemed no one was talkling about it. But, this is what I heard on JVM.
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I do get upset when I hear carp like this (not from you - the media). I couldn't find a single google link that confirms this information -- just tabloid trash, and links to other message boards. It's kinda like NG going on that Stephany was drugged, when the toxology report otherwise. Gets kinda frustrating huh?

Hugz,

Mel
 
Some background on John Ludwick (Joran's friend) who appeared on NG recently.

He just posted this to his Facebook page.

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/201...ed-killer-joran-van-der-sloot-breaks-silence/

Except from the article:


John Ludwick told me he never asked his friend about the Holloway case “flat out” because “If I pushed him he would think I had other motives”. While most, including I, would find that hard to believe, it’s a point he remains firm on. He said the two did eventually discuss the case after they watched a Lifetime movie about the case one evening. Van der Sloot told him certain parts were true, while others were not. When I pressed Ludwick for more details, he remained tight-lipped. Interestingly, Ludwick who was house-sitting in Aruba, would leave the island on May 10th – just 2 ½ months after they first met and the same day Joran would meet Beth Holloway’s attorney, John Q. Kelly, as part of an alleged plot to extort money from her. Ludwick says van der Sloot never mentioned the alleged plot but he told him about a call van der Sloot got around that time where he was “trying to work out a deal for some money” and it was about the “Holloway situation.” Again his details were slim and when I pressed for more and he failed to elaborate. Also on May 10th, Joran would text his friend saying he was “done” with Aruba. Ludwick speculates maybe Joran was leaving because he knew he was set to meet with Kelly later that very day. Joran would indeed leave Aruba a few days later for his ill-fated trip to Peru after extorting $25,000 from Beth Holloway, according to the FBI.

John Ludwick says never thought van der Sloot to have a violent temper and never saw him in a state of rage. He told me the two did encounter their fair share of angry tourists when they were out and about. Frequently, Ludwick says they would taunt van der Sloot, shouting things like “why do you make up all those stories” but he never saw him throw a punch. And while Ludwick never saw him hostile, he did witness what he believes is an obvious gambling addiction. According to Ludwick, the two would spend most nights at the poker tables and van der Sloot would win big but then loose it all – “he could never just stop.”
 
Bobarino said:
Any comments on the study I cited above on diet change that led to halting or diminshing of criminal behavior?
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We have evidence of that from our own experience during school years. My son (who was only 7 at the time) felt sad for a boy who was always in trouble, "Mom he doesn't have a healthy lunch and he doesn't make good choices". All I can say is yes I have personal experience with what you are quoting.
 
The Recurring Coffee Cup Question, an answer at last?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,594744,00.html

snipped:

COLLYNS: According to the timeline, just about 5:20. They left the casino 10 minutes before, it's very close by. At 8:35 is when Joran van der Sloot left the room alone with two empty coffee cups.

VAN SUSTEREN: Leaves with two empties?

COLLYNS: He comes out with two empty coffee cups. The surveillance video, there's a camera located right above the doorway. He was filmed clearly leaving with two empty coffee cups.

VAN SUSTEREN: Where did they come from? Is there video of him leaving and getting coffee?

COLLYNS: He claims he left to buy coffee, but he came back with the same empty coffee cups. Police say this was after the murder happened. The theory originally was he went to buy coffee, according to what he said, and returned to the room to find Stephany using his computer, and that's when the argument and the fight ensued.

And of course, that resulted in her murder. It appears that was a lie.




Link to Video: http://video.foxnews.com/v/4241298/joran-timeline-key-to-peru-murder-motive
 
TwiceIrish said:
I guess file this under strange but true:

On the second anniversary of Caylee Anthony's disappearance , the toddler's grandparents said they can identify with Natalee Holloway's mother, but not with the mother of suspected murderer Joran van der Sloot -- despite the murder charges against their daughter, Casey Anthony.


http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/TheLaw/ex...randmother-natalee-holloway/story?id=10913252
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I find it offensive that Cindy Anthony would use this case to compare it to Casey.

Thanks for the link though!
 
costalpilot said:
bolded by me. the first part of your statement does NOT "counter" the second part. at all. in fact, it is certainly possible daddy ran out of money trying to cover JVDS bloody tracks.

but the fact is, you didn't "counter" anything by pointing out that Anita needs help to get to Peru.
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"To enhance the sense of your response, I'm adding Unreals original post:
It appears that Anita has been struggling to raise enough money to fly to Peru. This would indicate that the late, "influential" Paulus Van der Sloot somehow ran through what should have been a substantial fortune, and evidently left his family unable to even afford the cost of a plane ticket.

Anita is an art teacher, so she obviously doesn't make a large salary. Just wanted to point all this out, to counter the constant mantra in the media about how "Daddy" pulled strings for Joran in Aruba, somehow getting the top officials to "cover up" his son's guilt, because the family was so "influential," rich and powerful."

Now my comment:
Before, during, and after the Holloway case, the Van Der Sloot family has never been rich. Aruban-Dutch lawyers and, indeed, the judges that Paulus never became aren't as affluent as their American counterparts. With extensive legal fees, court costs, a relatively modest home, and two other sons, they hardly lived an elite life.
 
newone said:
We have evidence of that from our own experience during school years. My son (who was only 7 at the time) felt sad for a boy who was always in trouble, "Mom he doesn't have a healthy lunch and he doesn't make good choices". All I can say is yes I have personal experience with what you are quoting.
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Thanks Newone.

Very telling on the intelligence and wisdom of a 7 year old as compared to many adults. I have seen that countless times. Before brainwashing takes hold, human beings can still see what is in front of them.

So thanks.
 
CathyinTexas said:
I think the punishment should fit the crime, so a humane and nonbarbaric society can allow the guilty to be given the basics in hygenic and humane conditions. If the guilty has committed murder and it can proven beyond a shadow of a doubt with forensics then I think that person should be given the death penalty which is fair punishment for murder. I do not think the conditions we have seen in Peru prisons should be allowed though. It breeds disease, which can be spread to the communities around it when these men do leave the prison. I think the conditions are abhorrent and nothing justifies it, in my opinion.
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You make some good points here. I must say I've never thought about the situation like this before. Thank you.
 
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