NCAA Sanctions: "DP" for Penn Football, or...?

Should the NCAA give Penn State the "death penalty"?

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J. J. in Phila said:
Spanier "resigned" in November; Erickson is the President. They actually should be angry at Spanier.

The first part of solving the problem is admitting you have a problem. Some of the people don't, and that is where the hostility starts. It revolts people. That is why I keep saying: Legacy protection never works. Arguably, the defensive actions of those people supporting Paterno have hurt Paterno's legacy, and have probably done more to hurt Penn State's reputation than the act.

This is literally Nixonian. I've never seen actual evidence that Nixon planned, authorized, or knew about the actual break in, in advance. He clearly attempted to cover it up after the fact. That is what led to his downfall.

If everyone stood up and said, "Paterno was wrong. He made some mistakes. We need to fix this, and yes, there should be some punishment," we wouldn't have this PR problem. :banghead:
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it is clear to me, sir, that the divide in the psu camp is wide indeed at this point, and I expect it will get wider as time goes by. psu's best hope is that your pov prevails. I have been to your board; it does not prevail over there. And now the Lucarno staters appear here. flags awavin, guns all ammod up, and ready to do battle for old state.

they pose a significant threat to your school. your plate is full. peace.

btw espn just announced that former us senator george mitchell has been selected as the new "five year integrity monitor at Penn state." I can imagine the kind of reception he is going to receive in the valley, but I really have no idea. Please tell us how you think he will be received? Wonder what kind of staff he will have, and what kind of authority.
 
If the views expressed on that board are representative, then I think Penn State may be unfixeable for a generation.

Good luck to George Mitchell, who did a very good job over here in my country with the Northern Ireland peace negotiations. If he fails, it won't be due to his own lack of ability.
 
"it is clear to me, sir, that the divide in the psu camp is wide indeed at this point, and I expect it will get wider as time goes by. psu's best hope is that your pov prevails. I have been to your board; it does not prevail over there. And now the Lucarno staters appear here. flags awavin, guns all ammod up, and ready to do battle for old state."

This right here proves my point.

I have said repeatedly on this thread that what Paterno, Spanier, Curley and Schultz did was wrong. That it was a cover-up.

But because I questioned the company line that they did it to protect football, and were driven to do so by a football first culture created by the students, alumni, and fans, I am being lumped in with people who defend them. Which has been exactly my point. Either you blame the football culture of Penn State, or you are in denial, defending child molester enablers.
 
rlc said:
But because I questioned the company line that they did it to protect football, and were driven to do so by a football first culture created by the students, alumni, and fans, I am being lumped in with people who defend them. Which has been exactly my point. Either you blame the football culture of Penn State, or you are in denial, defending child molester enablers.
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Well, if you were to strike out the words "football culture" and insert the words "culture [or "cult"] of Paterno," I would disagree with you. This has not been "The football program is great." It has been "Paterno is great."

This wasn't a football problem; it is a PSU administration problem, that included the football program.
 
rlc said:
"it is clear to me, sir, that the divide in the psu camp is wide indeed at this point, and I expect it will get wider as time goes by. psu's best hope is that your pov prevails. I have been to your board; it does not prevail over there. And now the Lucarno staters appear here. flags awavin, guns all ammod up, and ready to do battle for old state."

This right here proves my point.

I have said repeatedly on this thread that what Paterno, Spanier, Curley and Schultz did was wrong. That it was a cover-up.

But because I questioned the company line that they did it to protect football, and were driven to do so by a football first culture created by the students, alumni, and fans, I am being lumped in with people who defend them. Which has been exactly my point. Either you blame the football culture of Penn State, or you are in denial, defending child molester enablers.
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I had hoped the Freeh report would help clarify the motive aspect of the cover-up; but despite the conclusions many have drawn, including the NCAA, the emails actually spoke more to your point, with Curley indicating he was uncomfortable going to everyone, but the subject, and Spanier agreeing that it was a more humane solution.

Things may have been explained if Freeh's committee could have spoken to Curley, Schultz, or Spanier, but obviously with their legal situations, that couldn't happen.

Hopefully in the upcoming trials, one of the conspirators will come clean, and we can all understand if it really was about King Football, a stupidly misguided attempt at helping the perp, the complicated ties between the University personnel and Second Mile, or other reasons about which we haven't yet speculated.
 
J. J. in Phila said:
Well, if you were to strike out the words "football culture" and insert the words "culture [or "cult"] of Paterno," I would disagree with you. This has not been "The football program is great." It has been "Paterno is great."

This wasn't a football problem; it is a PSU administration problem, that included the football program.
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I completely agree that it is an administration problem. Perhaps if I could have found those words early on, there would have been less misunderstanding of my point.

As for the Paterno was great, part of the problem for me is that there are some things that are part of the Penn State culture that are unquestionably good things. Things that started with him, and that the students, and fans, and alumni made their own, and made bigger. It is hard to separate the two--to say, hey, look at these traditions, they're good, let's save them--without giving the impression you are talking about him as a wonderful guy. Granted, covering up child abuse outweighs all the good in the measurement of a person's character. But it does not rewrite history.
 
Rlaub44 said:
Things may have been explained if Freeh's committee could have spoken to Curley, Schultz, or Spanier, but obviously with their legal situations, that couldn't happen.
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Snipped to correct a point. Spanier did talk to Freeh, at least at the end.

Schultz and Curley didn't talk, on the advice of their attorneys. The AG requested that Freeh not talk to McQueary and Harmon. It was reported that Harmon and Arnold was requested or declined to talk to Freeh.

http://wearecentralpa.com/fulltext?nxd_id=384932

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=8732365

http://inagist.com/all/223426667270520832/

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/07/analysis_freeh_report_sheds_ne.html
 
Rlaub44 said:
I had hoped the Freeh report would help clarify the motive aspect of the cover-up; but despite the conclusions many have drawn, including the NCAA, the emails actually spoke more to your point, with Curley indicating he was uncomfortable going to everyone, but the subject, and Spanier agreeing that it was a more humane solution.

Things may have been explained if Freeh's committee could have spoken to Curley, Schultz, or Spanier, but obviously with their legal situations, that couldn't happen.

Hopefully in the upcoming trials, one of the conspirators will come clean, and we can all understand if it really was about King Football, a stupidly misguided attempt at helping the perp, the complicated ties between the University personnel and Second Mile, or other reasons about which we haven't yet speculated.
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I really hope so. Admittedly, I have personal reasons for not being willing/able to lump all of Penn State as an evil culture. But one of the other reasons that I cannot let go of this point is that I think describing it as a football problem prevents us from actually getting to the root of the problem so that we can learn from it. For instance, what if interviews of 100 people who were told of possible sex abuse but did not report it found that 95 of those 100 people did not do so because the allegations involved a troubled child with a history of dishonesty, and a trusted adult who they did not believe was capable of the abuse, so their gut feeling was to not report it and screw up someone's reputation. We could use that information to prevent such a situation in the future. For starters, educate the public about the actual statistics of child abuse to show them that it is highly likely a child in their extended circle is being abused. Show them profiles of pedophiles and victims, to show that the dynamic of troubled child with a history, and trusted member of the community is actually quite common. Discuss the psychology that makes one feel in their gut that it cannot be true, despite the presence of credible information and multiple red flags. Then give them a checklist to follow, even if they do not believe it, as a precaution.

That, to me, is more productive than allowing the general public to brush this aside as a problem that would never occur in their community because they would never put anything above the safety of a child. Rewriting history to make it fit with what we know now obscures the problem. Taking an honest look at the history of the parties involved, and trying to get to the root of the reason they did what they did helps us identify how/why these things happen and targeting awareness and education to prevent them from happening again.
 
BigCat said:
On the topic of the culture at Penn State, here's a link to an ESPN interview with Vicky Triponey. The entirety of the interview will air on Sunday.

She lays out what the problem with the culture was: the head football coach was more powerful than his nominal superiors.

http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/54667/video-standing-up-to-joe-paterno
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To jump off your post -

The following is just a reminder of where Paterno's head was in January, 2011 and the power he had prior to the Sandusky charges being filed.

Paterno was preparing to testify at the Grand Jury and in fact did make a brief appearance at the Grand Jury.

Paterno and certain members of the BOT at Penn State began talks that resulted in a sweetened retirement contract for JoPA. (January, 2011)

All members of the board of trustees weren't informed of the new package before the scandal erupted at Penn State.

Paterno and the university reached agreement on the amended contract that eventually totaled $5.5 million in August, months before charges were filed against Sandusky, but they began negotiating January.

The amended contract included a $3 million career bonus if Paterno retired at the end of the 2011 season, as well as well as forgiveness of $250,000 in outstanding indebtedness and an additional $100,000 in loans.

(Anyone know what the $250,000 was in regard to and the $100,000 in loans)

This is the package that gave Paterno access to a stadium box for his family for 25 years as well as parking privileges and access to on-campus hydrotherapy equipment for his wife.

Also according to published reports this is when Paterno then publicly announced he would retire at the end of the season in a statement that also TOLD school trustees to focus their attention on other matters.
 
Colin cowherd this morning on espn said that penn state fans are the most delusional fans he has EVER encountered. I think this is closely connected to the five decades of joe culture, joe thought, and is a perfect example of the dangers of tightly controlled information. IMO these people believe most of what they say and what they think happened in joeville. Frankly it's scary and instructive. Our local posters notwithstanding. They are the exceptions, not the rule.
 
rlc said:
".....

But because I questioned the company line that they did it to protect football, and were driven to do so by a football first culture created by the students, alumni, and fans, I am being lumped in with people who defend them. Which has been exactly my point. Either you blame the football culture of Penn State, or you are in denial, defending child molester enablers.[/QUOTE

It is not a "company line" but a conclusion of an Independent investigator following the most exhaustive and thorough investigation of an American collegiate institution in history. You are free to denegrate and dismiss it. Personally I'll go with freehs opinions over a stater.

Nobody said the football first culture was created by the students alumni and fans. You were not in charge. You merely liked football and myths of moral high grounds. It made for a great story. A great rallying cry and it was oh do sweet to believe in and put your faith in. But you didn't create it, the populace never does. But you fell for it. No body's blaming you. It's not an unusual phenomena in the history of humanity.
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costalpilot said:
It is not a "company line" but a conclusion of an Independent investigator following the most exhaustive and thorough investigation of an American collegiate institution in history. You are free to denegrate and dismiss it. Personally I'll go with freehs opinions over a stater.
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Ah, I'm not sure that it the motive for why the 2001 incident happened was not reported.

I've only found two even close reference, one on p. 129 to the "Penn State Way" and on p. 38 about the department being "'an island.'" I think that one of the criticisms is that Penn State is insular, but that wasn't limited to football of the athletic department, though they noted an "overemphasis on athletics (p. 129)." It is not Penn State football, it is Penn State.

I referred to it as: A secular priesthood of administrators allegedly hiding the monster in the cloister of the university. A pervasive evil allegedly reaching out into the community under the guise of great institutions for learning and charity.

I've called that Central Pennsylvania Gothic.
 
costalpilot said:
rlc said:
".....

But because I questioned the company line that they did it to protect football, and were driven to do so by a football first culture created by the students, alumni, and fans, I am being lumped in with people who defend them. Which has been exactly my point. Either you blame the football culture of Penn State, or you are in denial, defending child molester enablers.[/QUOTE

It is not a "company line" but a conclusion of an Independent investigator following the most exhaustive and thorough investigation of an American collegiate institution in history. You are free to denegrate and dismiss it. Personally I'll go with freehs opinions over a stater.

Nobody said the football first culture was created by the students alumni and fans. You were not in charge. You merely liked football and myths of moral high grounds. It made for a great story. A great rallying cry and it was oh do sweet to believe in and put your faith in. But you didn't create it, the populace never does. But you fell for it. No body's blaming you. It's not an unusual phenomena in the history of humanity.
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Freeh's investigation was far from thorough about the motivation for the coverup, or the "Penn State culture". The only evidence of the "Penn State culture" I found in the Freeh report is a reference to a janitor's view of it, and an unnamed individual that is clearly Vicky what's-her-name. If you want to know how credible of a source she is, search timeline of terror. It was not just Paterno who butted heads with her. She tried to spin it as being about football, but documents published long before this scandal broke show that students and faculty advisors of a wide range of student groups took issue with her because she tried to remove leadership from students, and remove due process from student discipline. She tried to censor and/or shut down student media for expressing opinions against her. She was pushed to resign because the university as a whole did not appreciate her trying to remove leadership opportunities and freedom of expression, and she had difficulty findings jobs afterwards. She had a huge bone to pick with all of Penn State, but she blamed Paterno the most.

If you can show me some substantive evidence about the Penn State culture contained in the Freeh report, such as a survey of professors, for example, since most big football schools have a plethora of professors willing to speak out about the athletics vs academics conundrum, I would give it more weight. But one janitor and a disgruntled former employee do not do make it a thorough investigation of the culture.
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Tipstaff said:
To jump off your post -

The following is just a reminder of where Paterno's head was in January, 2011 and the power he had prior to the Sandusky charges being filed.

Paterno was preparing to testify at the Grand Jury and in fact did make a brief appearance at the Grand Jury.

Paterno and certain members of the BOT at Penn State began talks that resulted in a sweetened retirement contract for JoPA. (January, 2011)

All members of the board of trustees weren't informed of the new package before the scandal erupted at Penn State.

Paterno and the university reached agreement on the amended contract that eventually totaled $5.5 million in August, months before charges were filed against Sandusky, but they began negotiating January.

The amended contract included a $3 million career bonus if Paterno retired at the end of the 2011 season, as well as well as forgiveness of $250,000 in outstanding indebtedness and an additional $100,000 in loans.

(Anyone know what the $250,000 was in regard to and the $100,000 in loans)

This is the package that gave Paterno access to a stadium box for his family for 25 years as well as parking privileges and access to on-campus hydrotherapy equipment for his wife.

Also according to published reports this is when Paterno then publicly announced he would retire at the end of the season in a statement that also TOLD school trustees to focus their attention on other matters.
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Just based on the number, and the use of the word indebtedness instead of just grouping it with loans, I'm guessing it was a pledge for a charitable contribution. When I was a student there, they had pledged or donated 250k for specific projects both my first year and my last year, and I had *heard* that they gave that exact amount every four years. But since then, I have heard nothing of the sort, so can't say for sure.
 
rlc said:
If you can show me some substantive evidence about the Penn State culture contained in the Freeh report, such as a survey of professors, for example, since most big football schools have a plethora of professors willing to speak out about the athletics vs academics conundrum, I would give it more weight. But one janitor and a disgruntled former employee do not do make it a thorough investigation of the culture.
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There is a full blog of them on an alumni site.

For something substantive, look at the "opting out" of the Cleary Act. For more than two decades, they didn't even a policy on it.
 
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