I can't find a hole in this theory...

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docg said:
Chris's point is that the phoney ransom note doesn't work to cover up anything once the police are called and the body is still in the house. Because once the body is found, it will be obvious there never was any kidnapping and the coverup attempt will be exposed for what it is -- staging. Wanting a "proper burial" has nothing to do with it. If they were both involved with the staging, they would not have called the police at that time.
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OK. Let's approach this differently. Let's say Patsy found the following 'revenge' note: ' John Ramsey, you're the scambag and we hate you. Go to the basement! We have present for you there. Victory!'. This kind of note would work for 'staging' very well, right? Means, somebody else molested/killed JBR. Police must be called right away to attend the 'homicide' case. I'm sure all Ramseys friends, pastor, doctor - all of them would be called, but not allow to come into 'crime scene'. Are you with me so far?

Now, let's get to the actual 'kidnapping' 'play' on December 26. What differences would you see between the first 'revenge' play scenario and the actual 'kidnapping' one? I'm very much interested to hear from you. Meanwhile, please allow me to point to advantages of 'kidnapping' scenario as I see it:
- buying time to let Burke out of the house;
- allow different LE personal involved (by quantity and quality), hence, contamination of evidences;
- allow friends to be IN the house, freely walking around, hence - more contamination;
- and finally, avoiding the interview with the police (as shocking, grieving, tired parents who need time to re-coup.).

Ramsey creates the brilliant plan to buy the time (of course, with a little luck from BPD and DA). Thanks to this 'kidnapping' approach - JBR case is not solved yet...after 16 years....and we still arguing:)...
 
docg said:
Chris's point is that the phoney ransom note doesn't work to cover up anything once the police are called and the body is still in the house. Because once the body is found, it will be obvious there never was any kidnapping and the coverup attempt will be exposed for what it is -- staging. Wanting a "proper burial" has nothing to do with it. If they were both involved with the staging, they would not have called the police at that time.
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Just wanted to say, I really like your theory. Yours in in my top three.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
KoldKase said:
So who was going to make the ransom call to the house that morning so JR could go on his car ride and dump the body?
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Sorry for answering for DocG, but according his theory (you can read it on his site) - JR himself would call from the phone booth and leave the message on his answering machine...something like that....
 
OpenMind4U said:
Sorry for answering for DocG, but according his theory (you can read it on his site) - JR himself would call from the phone booth and leave the message on his answering machine...something like that....
Click to expand...

DocG wrote: "He could then find a remote phone booth and call his home from there. This would represent the kidnapper's call. Assuming he had an answering machine, the machine would pick up the call to record the "message." Of course there wouldn't be any, but the call would now be registered in the phone companies records."

Phone records would show a call made and answered, but there would be no way to determine whether an answering machine or a human answered the phone. So JR would return home and make sure that he erased the silent "message" which from the phone company's records POV would now represent the "ransom call."
 
sandover said:
DocG wrote: "He could then find a remote phone booth and call his home from there. This would represent the kidnapper's call. Assuming he had an answering machine, the machine would pick up the call to record the "message." Of course there wouldn't be any, but the call would now be registered in the phone companies records."

Phone records would show a call made and answered, but there would be no way to determine whether an answering machine or a human answered the phone. So JR would return home and make sure that he erased the silent "message" which from the phone company's records POV would now represent the "ransom call."
Click to expand...


Ooops, sorry DocG, but it's way to determine 'whether an answering machine or a human answered the phone.'....(see Anthony case)...but, honestly, this is a very minor detail....
 
sandover said:
DocG wrote: "He could then find a remote phone booth and call his home from there. This would represent the kidnapper's call. Assuming he had an answering machine, the machine would pick up the call to record the "message." Of course there wouldn't be any, but the call would now be registered in the phone companies records."

Phone records would show a call made and answered, but there would be no way to determine whether an answering machine or a human answered the phone. So JR would return home and make sure that he erased the silent "message" which from the phone company's records POV would now represent the "ransom call."
Click to expand...

When was JR going to find this remote phone booth? Banks open at 10 am--the deadline for the kidnappers to call.

If JR left Patsy at home with Burke before that 10 am call, or even later, wouldn't she answer the phone? If she wasn't in on the fact that JR had molested and murdered her little girl?

Wouldn't LE be able to recover the recording from the answering machine, as well? Unless it had been taped over, I think that was fairly easy even in '96.

It's a theory, but I think there are some holes there.
 
I toyed with the idea that John had planned to leave the house and dump the body BUT I felt he would need an accomplice to swipe the cash. He gets jumpy when the phone rings during the morning. Was there a third party planned to phone who may or may not have been aware that the plan had changed?
 
This is my problem with the ransom note. For the most part, the writer stayed in character, but towards the end, starting with, 'Don't try to grow a brain John', and then all the way to, 'It is up to you now John!', complete with exclamation point, (of all things), I can't visualize anybody but PR, writing those things. It's like she was giving JR a talking to, almost a little pep talk. What a load of carp, this note was... so dramatic and not threatening. A small foreign faction, with a flair for exclamation points? Who did they think they were fooling? MOO.
 
KoldKase said:
When was JR going to find this remote phone booth? Banks open at 10 am--the deadline for the kidnappers to call.

If JR left Patsy at home with Burke before that 10 am call, or even later, wouldn't she answer the phone? If she wasn't in on the fact that JR had molested and murdered her little girl?

Wouldn't LE be able to recover the recording from the answering machine, as well? Unless it had been taped over, I think that was fairly easy even in '96.

It's a theory, but I think there are some holes there.
Click to expand...


No need for the phone booth to be remote. Any phone booth will do. There were still lots of them around in '96.


Yes, if PR were home, she'd answer. I think JR would try to get PR/BR to stay with friends.

I don't know if the call could be recovered from the answering machine or not. But, as you point out, he could just tape over it.
 
KoldKase said:
When was JR going to find this remote phone booth? Banks open at 10 am--the deadline for the kidnappers to call.

If JR left Patsy at home with Burke before that 10 am call, or even later, wouldn't she answer the phone? If she wasn't in on the fact that JR had molested and murdered her little girl?

Wouldn't LE be able to recover the recording from the answering machine, as well? Unless it had been taped over, I think that was fairly easy even in '96.

It's a theory, but I think there are some holes there.
Click to expand...

KoldKase,
It's a theory, but I think there are some holes there.
Click to expand...
Exactly!

Fibers from the parents are to be found on JonBenet. Patsy's at various locations and John's on JonBenet's crotch. Claiming secondary transfer for that is absolute nonsense. The evidence is simply being tailored to fit the theory.

Then there is the requirement for John to make a ransom demand phone call. How does he get a pass to leave the house in the first place, never mind be alone if he did, surely LEA would want to monitor him?

Of course LEA would wiretap the call, if JR ever thought this one through, he would have recognized immediately that it would fall down at this point. Bear in mind wiretapping would convey the location of the phone booth, and likely lead to JR being arrested on the spot. Epic Fail!

So to the ransom note and its many incarnations, all left behind, this does not sound like John, he is more methodical than that.

Then there is the size-12's. If Patsy is ignorant about the size-12's, why is she covering for John by fabricating stories about placing the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, yet when LEA look into the drawer, there are no size-12's to be seen?

Its an interesting theory, and no doubt JR probably thought about something similar. Relocating JonBenet outdoors would have lent the abduction theory so much more credibility.

For me it has far too many holes, it requires patches and provisos alike secondary transfer, or LEA allowing JR to wander the streets.

When its manifestly obvious that the R's cobbled the wine-cellar crime-scene together fairly quickly, dumping JonBenet and other evidence in there, out of sight.

They expected JonBenet to be found reasonably quickly. And they likely were simply going to wing it, play it by ear, with the help of their legal team, and whatever else money could buy. They patently never anticipated the incompetence of the BPD, and Det. Arndt asking JR to search for JonBenet!

If you follow JR's public comments on the case you can see, by stepwise refinement, as he goes from an inside job to slowly constructing an intruder, a message he obviously conveyed to Lou Smit. Who then presented the media with a psychotic pedophile who had a fetish for Erotic Asphyxiation, e.g. justifying the garrote.



.
 
OpenMind4U said:
Ooops, sorry DocG, but it's way to determine 'whether an answering machine or a human answered the phone.'....(see Anthony case)...but, honestly, this is a very minor detail....
Click to expand...

In 1996? Doubtful. But even if there was a way to "determine" back then, this would probably not be at the forefront of JR's mind.
 
KoldKase said:
When was JR going to find this remote phone booth? Banks open at 10 am--the deadline for the kidnappers to call.

If JR left Patsy at home with Burke before that 10 am call, or even later, wouldn't she answer the phone? If she wasn't in on the fact that JR had molested and murdered her little girl?

Wouldn't LE be able to recover the recording from the answering machine, as well? Unless it had been taped over, I think that was fairly easy even in '96.

It's a theory, but I think there are some holes there.
Click to expand...

JR obviously was going to demand that PR be with BR at a friend's, or their pastor's, etc.

JR would not *leave* a message. He'd theoretically have been "at home" receiving the call when he was making the call, remember? So all he'd have to do is make sure he erased the blank "message" from the answering machine so that when cops later came to the house there would be no record of a message left (while there would be a record of a call coming into the home and being answered in phone records).
 
UKGuy said:
KoldKase,

Exactly!

Fibers from the parents are to be found on JonBenet. Patsy's at various locations and John's on JonBenet's crotch. Claiming secondary transfer for that is absolute nonsense. The evidence is simply being tailored to fit the theory.

Then there is the requirement for John to make a ransom demand phone call. How does he get a pass to leave the house in the first place, never mind be alone if he did, surely LEA would want to monitor him?

Of course LEA would wiretap the call, if JR ever thought this one through, he would have recognized immediately that it would fall down at this point. Bear in mind wiretapping would convey the location of the phone booth, and likely lead to JR being arrested on the spot. Epic Fail!

So to the ransom note and its many incarnations, all left behind, this does not sound like John, he is more methodical than that.

Then there is the size-12's. If Patsy is ignorant about the size-12's, why is she covering for John by fabricating stories about placing the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, yet when LEA look into the drawer, there are no size-12's to be seen?

Its an interesting theory, and no doubt JR probably thought about something similar. Relocating JonBenet outdoors would have lent the abduction theory so much more credibility.

For me it has far too many holes, it requires patches and provisos alike secondary transfer, or LEA allowing JR to wander the streets.

When its manifestly obvious that the R's cobbled the wine-cellar crime-scene together fairly quickly, dumping JonBenet and other evidence in there, out of sight.

They expected JonBenet to be found reasonably quickly. And they likely were simply going to wing it, play it by ear, with the help of their legal team, and whatever else money could buy. They patently never anticipated the incompetence of the BPD, and Det. Arndt asking JR to search for JonBenet!

If you follow JR's public comments on the case you can see, by stepwise refinement, as he goes from an inside job to slowly constructing an intruder, a message he obviously conveyed to Lou Smit. Who then presented the media with a psychotic pedophile who had a fetish for Erotic Asphyxiation, e.g. justifying the garrote.



.
Click to expand...

UKGuy, the RN specifically says to CONTACT NO ONE or "SHE DIES." JR was going to tell PR and BR that they could not speak to ANYONE about this.

There would be no law enforcement on the case until WELL AFTER HE'D ACCOMPLISHED EVERYTHING. Far-fetched it may seem, but it explains why the RN had all those instructions, threats, time-windows, etc...

No one has found a single hole in DocG's theory yet in this thread!
 
A minor detail that adds, I think, to the JDI case: that the "practice" RN says "Mr and Mrs Ramsey" and the final note only says "Mr Ramsey" -- JR probably had an instinct that to justify his "going it alone" he should craft a RN that speaks ONLY to him.
 
sandover said:
UKGuy, the RN specifically says to CONTACT NO ONE or "SHE DIES." JR was going to tell PR and BR that they could not speak to ANYONE about this.

There would be no law enforcement on the case until WELL AFTER HE'D ACCOMPLISHED EVERYTHING. Far-fetched it may seem, but it explains why the RN had all those instructions, threats, time-windows, etc...

No one has found a single hole in DocG's theory yet in this thread!
Click to expand...

sandover,
OK, so the case is solved, and we can all go home now?


So John stands next to Patsy as she dials 911, and does nothing, just telling Burke, We are not talking to you?

Its a theory that explains what might have been, but not everything that did take place, particularly the forensic evidence, even if its irrelevant.

.
 
dodie20 said:
This is my problem with the ransom note. For the most part, the writer stayed in character, but towards the end, starting with, 'Don't try to grow a brain John', and then all the way to, 'It is up to you now John!', complete with exclamation point, (of all things), I can't visualize anybody but PR, writing those things. It's like she was giving JR a talking to, almost a little pep talk. What a load of carp, this note was... so dramatic and not threatening. A small foreign faction, with a flair for exclamation points? Who did they think they were fooling? MOO.
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree - the final few lines of the note are florid and melodramatic, almost as if the author was relishing their own 'poesy'. In an age without the internet, I still persist in viewing the dictionary opened at 'incest' as a desperate attempt to find some information about what had been discovered to have occurred to JBR. Reference books were for referring to back then.

My utterly unsupported interpretation is that Burke executed all the sexual defilement, including the paintbrush jab. I don't think the Ramseys realised they were brilliantly covering up past abuse meted out by Burke. They were simply confronted by the horrific mess of their daughter's genitalia. Patsy had her suspicions upon visits to the pediatrician which had now been tragically confirmed. One last thing - the dynamic seems to be Patsy firmly in the driving seat during the entire evening with John taking a grief-stricken backseat.
 
docg said:
Excellent question! Good!

I really can't see into John Ramsey's mind (thank God), but if he was as crafty as I think he was, his plan would have included a stopover at a phone booth, after going to the bank to collect the ransom cash. He'd have called his home phone and allowed his voice mail machine to take the call. He wouldn't have said anything, natch. Just kept the connection going for as long as possible. When he got home, he would have erased the "message." There would now be a record of a call to his home from a phone booth. This would be the "kidnapper's" call. Dangerous for sure. But he might have gotten away with it.
Click to expand...

docg,
erased the "message.
Click to expand...
You cannot be serious!

No message content means there is no evidence that any ransom demand was ever made!

JR would have become prime suspect almost immediately, it would never have worked.

Far too many holes, nice try though.



.
 
docg said:
Good thinking. Very interesting. Why not just a simple note by someone who hates John? Why go to all the trouble to stage a kidnapping?

My answer: Any note written in the hand of the person doing the staging is going to be subjected to careful scrutiny, and John would have had no way of knowing how badly that scrutiny was going to be botched, so I don't think he would have wanted to hand the authorities such potentially damaging evidence. Now a short note clipped from magazines or newspapers would have been safer, yes. But these printed materials could easily be traced to the house and that too would have looked very suspicious.

Of course he could have simply left the body out in the open with no note, but that would have been very dangerous, no? Because no matter how grief stricken he would have appeared, he would be the number one suspect for sure.

So. He needed a note of some kind. It had to be long enough to set his plan up, giving him time to collect the "ransom" and dump the body, and also it needed to be scary enough to convince Patsy not to call the police. It's important to understand that he could have easily claimed the kidnapper wanted the note returned -- why wouldn't he since it had his handwriting all over it.

Once the note had been studied by Patsy and some friends, it could then safely be destroyed, with John claiming he'd returned it to the kidnapper(s) when he delivered the ransom, as ordered. If all had gone according to plan, the authorities would never have had a chance to examine the handwriting on the note, nor would they have ever learned it was written on a notepad already in the house.

This would not have been the case if he'd written the sort of note you've proposed.
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I don't know how else to explain...I didn't PROPOSE anything! The point I tried to make (OK, here is the last time): the 'kidnapping note' AND the 'other note' would support the purpose of the 'staging' (point the blame away from Ramsey). But only 'kidnapping note' BUYS THE TIME to achieve important tasks: get Burke OUT from the house, get as many people IN the house, contaminate this damn place and so on. IMO, this was the MAIN reason to use 'kidnapping note' approach. If all of that was achieved - no reason to get rid of the body....and as the result, Ramsey's task was successfully accomplished.
:banghead:
 
DocG,

Quick question -

If you think John would have wanted to get rid of the note by saying the kidnappers asked for it back, because he wouldn't want his handwriting recognized by the police... And the note was for Patsy to find, etc....

Do you think she would not have, or did not recognize his handwriting?

P.S. - ....Surely if we think we recognize John's handwriting and verbiage based on writing samples of his that we have seen, and what we know about him, then Patsy must know her own husband's handwriting and verbiage as well?
 
docg said:
Yes, if you are right about Burke, then the note does everything you'd like it to do. Assuming you are willing to cast aside basic logic. The kidnapping note didn't buy any time at all, because Patsy called 911 and brought police to the scene. How does it get Burke out of the house? that totally escapes me. How does it get people in to the house? With a dead body and no note they could still have called the cops and the friends, no need for a note. And yes, if Ramsey's task was to cast suspicion on himself and hand the police a note with his and/or Patsy's handwriting all over it, a note written on a pad from the house with a pen from the house, oh year, that did the trick! Task accomplished! All suspicion is now on THEM. How is that good for them?
Click to expand...

DocG, no more fights. Let's agree to disagree as a good friends does:). Let's change the subject.

Did you read by any chance the 'Three Critical Questions' thread on FFJ initiated by KoldKase? I'm interested how would YOU respond to the second question using your theory 'What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?'. I would even ask this question differently: 'What prompt to wait for 90 minutes?'.
 
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