What Is the Defense Strategy?

logicalgirl · Mar 27, 2011

katydid23 said:
I don't think he is going to be the one to say he abused her. Why would he? I think they will try and use Casey's jail letters and if need be, Casey herself.

If they try PTSD then she will have to testify herself. What does she have to lose? If they get to show the jury all of her lies at Universal and on the 911 call, she is toast.

They NEED an excuse for all of those lies and all of the party pictures. PTSD is all they got to try and defend that behavior. If she gets up on the stand and says 'Daddy abused me for years" then what?

If she was on the stand in the guilt phase and said that - LDB would take her apart, cell by cell, slowly and with great precision. It should not be hard to get ICA to lose her temper and show her true colours in front of the jury and JB wouldn't be able to stop her, he can't even get her to stop poking him or grabbing his arm in the courtroom.

Oh - I really really want to see that!

katydid23 · Mar 27, 2011

momshrink said:
Mary's ptsd was thought to be caused by her husband whom she killed - sort of a battered wife defense. If ICA were diagnosed with ptsd because of sexual abuse, it would not contribute to killing her child. The trauma causing the ptsd would have to be associated with some trigger that would lead to the killing in some way - some link. Ptsd is an anxiety disorder. If the defense claims it was caused by prior sexual abuse, it would be very difficult to link it to killing her child.
ICA has some behaviors and thought patterns that seem to be associated with personality disorders: Compulsive lying, lack of remorse, changing her behavior to fit in with whoever or wherever she is, demands of loyal at all costs (you are on her side or not), lack of healthy interpersonal relationships - these are some behaviors found with personality disorders. JMO

I think the link will be catching her dad abusing her baby. She snaps or even accidentally kills her because she is so fragile or debilitated as a result.
Or they may even try and imply that George did it, in anger, not Casey. imo

Her personality disorders---could they stem from being a child abuse victim?

logicalgirl · Mar 27, 2011

MissJames said:
LOL LambChop! I wanted to guzzle a bottle of wine during the last hearing,and I rarely drink! I'm not sure I can get through the trial ,just watching it on TV !
Our choices are rambling Baez or mumbling Mason. I suppose Simms may jump in,but I will be distracted ,wondering why she does not use a flat iron,and I'll miss her point.
Ann Finnel with be a breath of fresh air during the penalty phase.

MissJames - can I just take a moment to tell you how much I am enjoying your posts today? You are always on point but today you are in rare form. :great:

katydid23 · Mar 27, 2011

logicalgirl said:
If she was on the stand in the guilt phase and said that - LDB would take her apart, cell by cell, slowly and with great precision. It should not be hard to get ICA to lose her temper and show her true colours in front of the jury and JB wouldn't be able to stop her, he can't even get her to stop poking him or grabbing his arm in the courtroom.

Oh - I really really want to see that!

But isn't sexual abuse kind of a 'he said/she said' situation. If she claims that Daddy snuck into her room at night, who can PROVE he didn't?

He can deny it, but even guilty abusers deny it.

And we have her crazy behaviors to back up her story.

She lied and stole but was never held accountable because of the family secrets. She acted out because she was damaged,and confused.

logicalgirl · Mar 27, 2011

katydid23 said:
But isn't sexual abuse kind of a 'he said/she said' situation. If she claims that Daddy snuck into her room at night, who can PROVE he didn't?

He can deny it, but even guilty abusers deny it.

And we have her crazy behaviors to back up her story.

She lied and stole but was never held accountable because of the family secrets. She acted out because she was damaged,and confused.

I'm getting confused here - are we saying all this and George killed the baby or all this and ICA killed her?

I need to go and look up some cases cause I'm getting out of my depth here with the sexual abuse he said/she said stuff and decisions between Canada and Florida.

LambChop · Mar 27, 2011

At 22 years of age why would KC still be at home and leaving her child, mother of the year as CA claims her to be, with them when she had a way out of the household. Plenty of opportunities but she stayed at home, left her child with her parents a great deal of the time. So that would make no sense in an abuse case. We know she was home because it was so much easier to steal money from her family than it was to go out and work. No fear there, was there? If you stole money, lots of money would you not expect that when they found out you would get the beating of your life if your Dad was violent. There was no fear there because KC continued to steal and lie. The abuser was KC not the other way around. jmo

okiedokietoo · Mar 27, 2011

katydid23 said:
But they are not going to say her PTSD came from the child's death. They will likely claim it came from a childhood of sexual/emotional abuse. In those cases the victims sometimes act out sexually, are addicted to drugs/alcohol and are promiscuous. Thus her going to clubs fits the dx. imo

Yes, but, Caylee's death would have triggered more intense symptoms of PTSD i.e. anxiety etc and she would not have been out clubbing at that point.
If she was just promiscuous, and experimented with a few drugs (we have seen nothing to imply that she was addicted to drugs) and got drunk a couple of times and then Caylee died and she went on with life as usual, she didn't have PTSD IMO some symptoms would have manifested that were not there before Caylee died: Loss of interest in activities and life in general, to name one.
If ICA experienced childhood sexual/emotional abuse and didn't block the experience, there are initial PTSD symptoms but then she goes on with her life and being promiscuous etc, exhibiting the signs of the underlying PTSD, and then there is another traumatic event somehow similar or so intense ---it would have triggered the PTSD and brought it to the surface.
(example)
http://helpguide.org/mental/post_traumatic_stress_disorder_symptoms_treatment.htm

While the symptoms of PTSD most commonly develop in the hours or days following the traumatic event, it can sometimes take weeks, months, or even years before they appear.

But if you have post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), the symptoms don’t decrease. You don’t feel a little better each day. In fact, you may start to feel worse.

per the depos and interviews that we have read ICA acted the same after Caylee died as she did before Caylee died. There was nothing different about how she acted. Even if DT is not going to say that Caylee's death gave ICA PTSD, but her PTSD is a result of childhood trauma, Caylee's death should have caused ICA to have symptoms, any symptoms, any reactions related to any trauma - depression brought on by the loss of a child for example. A person that has PTSD as a result of childhood emotional or sexual or physical abuse (which ever applies to DT defense today) would not want to be alone with the perp and ICA picked GA as the person to see her alone at the jail. PTSD just doesn't apply.
(bolded above - ICA wasn't depressed, not reacting applies to a sociopath not a person that has PTSD)

momshrink · Mar 27, 2011

katydid23 said:
I think the link will be catching her dad abusing her baby. She snaps or even accidentally kills her because she is so fragile or debilitated as a result.
Or they may even try and imply that George did it, in anger, not Casey. imo

Her personality disorders---could they stem from being a child abuse victim?

If there was ptsd as a result of her father abusing her, a trigger might cause her to kill George or another man whom she feels forces or uses her sexually -but that is not common. More common to kill the abuser if something triggers when she feels able, i.e. now as an adult, no longer a helpless child.
The personality disorders - Some theories of the causes of borderline personality or antisocial personality include childhood trauma or abuse. Other theories include genetics, parenting. Probably a combination - we really do not know what causes a personality disorder. Individual vulnerability comes into play, too. IMOO

strach304 · Mar 27, 2011

katydid23 said:
But isn't sexual abuse kind of a 'he said/she said' situation. If she claims that Daddy snuck into her room at night, who can PROVE he didn't?

He can deny it, but even guilty abusers deny it.

And we have her crazy behaviors to back up her story.

She lied and stole but was never held accountable because of the family secrets. She acted out because she was damaged,and confused.

The problem I foresee is in the jail letters that she thinks GA may have abused her too. There wasn't a definite admission about George but was about Lee. Other stories of abuse she told JG and TL were about Lee and abuse from her father but didn't state what kind of abuse.

faefrost · Mar 27, 2011

Whome? said:
Thank you so much for your insightful post. If this was the "goal' since AL was on the D/T then why didn't the D/T just plea this case out to LWOP,and all of this money,drama antics etc would not be happening. I don't understand that if this is the bottom line,this could have been obtained months if not years ago.Am I missing something here? :waitasec:

A few reasons (some pure speculation, and some pretty apparent from watching the players)

1. KC herself - No matter how you slice it, a plea requires KC being willing to stop the lies and admit what she did. I don't think she is wired that way.

2. AL - As we said, she is the 'Angel of Death Row". She is an anti capital punishment crusader. Crusades are not fought or won in plea deals. Only things that deny or strike down the DP in a public forum. she signed on to take the DP case to trial.:maddening:

3. CM - This is his big fun last hurrah. This is his career ending "make me famous, somebody make a movie about me!" moment. The history books aren't written in plea deals. :bigfight:

4. JB - Any number of reasons we can speculate here. The most obvious being he is letting the sociopath drive the bus, rather than providing proper advice and council. If you want to make some less firm snarky assumptions, well it can be hypothesized that there may remain some big money deals on the table that will only ever come to fruition if this thing is a big public spectacle and plays big on cable news channels. JB may be hoping for a payout at last in terms of some sort of licensing deal or story deal if it goes to trial. His payment was and always has been tied to the public spectacle of the entire circus, instead of being properly tied to his clients best interests. (This is why Criminal Defense Attorneys are not allowed to take cases on contingency in Florida. Somehow these media deals appear to be a loophole around that.) :banghead:

As far as the newcomers. I honestly think that AF may be a strong voice for actually trying to get KC to accept a plea in exchange for an extended or permanent prison sentence, and getting the DP off the table. She seems to have a good level of professionalism, ethics and common sense, at least from what we have seen. I think DCS is hoping for a multimillion dollar settlement offer from the malpractice insurance company... and fails to realize that this is actually a criminal murder case. But given that most of her comunications go through JB and CM, it is understandable why she may have no clue as to what is actually going on here. :innocent:

katydid23 · Mar 27, 2011

logicalgirl said:
I'm getting confused here - are we saying all this and George killed the baby or all this and ICA killed her?

I need to go and look up some cases cause I'm getting out of my depth here with the sexual abuse he said/she said stuff and decisions between Canada and Florida.

I am not sure which avenue they will take, but PTSD can take them down many a road.

Either she suffered from PTSD and it made it impossible to care for the child and she accidentally drowned/fell/died but she was incapable of reacting rationally...

OR Casey was so upset about her parents wanting to take custody she snapped and drowned her child to protect her from them ...

OR George killed the child in an angry rage or while abusing her and Casey was so far inrto her PTSD she could not react properly and she pretended as though her child was kidnapped by a phantom nanny...

Whome? · Mar 27, 2011

faefrost said:
A few reasons (some pure speculation, and some pretty apparent from watching the players)

1. KC herself - No matter how you slice it, a plea requires KC being willing to stop the lies and admit what she did. I don't think she is wired that way.

2. AL - As we said, she is the 'Angel of Death Row". She is an anti capital punishment crusader. Crusades are not fought or won in plea deals. Only things that deny or strike down the DP in a public forum. she signed on to take the DP case to trial.:maddening:

3. CM - This is his big fun last hurrah. This is his career ending "make me famous, somebody make a movie about me!" moment. The history books aren't written in plea deals. :bigfight:

4. JB - Any number of reasons we can speculate here. The most obvious being he is letting the sociopath drive the bus, rather than providing proper advice and council. If you want to make some less firm snarky assumptions, well it can be hypothesized that there may remain some big money deals on the table that will only ever come to fruition if this thing is a big public spectacle and plays big on cable news channels. JB may be hoping for a payout at last in terms of some sort of licensing deal or story deal if it goes to trial. His payment was and always has been tied to the public spectacle of the entire circus, instead of being properly tied to his clients best interests. (This is why Criminal Defense Attorneys are not allowed to take cases on contingency in Florida. Somehow these media deals appear to be a loophole around that.) :banghead:

As far as the newcomers. I honestly think that AF may be a strong voice for actually trying to get KC to accept a plea in exchange for an extended or permanent prison sentence, and getting the DP off the table. She seems to have a good level of professionalism, ethics and common sense, at least from what we have seen. I think DCS is hoping for a multimillion dollar settlement offer from the malpractice insurance company... and fails to realize that this is actually a criminal murder case. But given that most of her comunications go through JB and CM, it is understandable why she may have no clue as to what is actually going on here. :innocent:

:tyou:

katydid23 · Mar 27, 2011

strach304 said:
The problem I foresee is in the jail letters that she thinks GA may have abused her too. There wasn't a definite admission about George but was about Lee. Other stories of abuse she told JG and TL were about Lee and abuse from her father but didn't state what kind of abuse.

Yes, but that is quite normal in many incestuous relationships. The child dissasociates and denies and blocks the memories. They may TRY and claim she was just remembering clearly in therapy now.

:liar::violin:

katydid23 · Mar 27, 2011

okiedokietoo said:
Yes, but, Caylee's death would have triggered more intense symptoms of PTSD i.e. anxiety etc and she would not have been out clubbing at that point.
If she was just promiscuous, and experimented with a few drugs (we have seen nothing to imply that she was addicted to drugs) and got drunk a couple of times and then Caylee died and she went on with life as usual, she didn't have PTSD IMO some symptoms would have manifested that were not there before Caylee died: Loss of interest in activities and life in general, to name one.
If ICA experienced childhood sexual/emotional abuse and didn't block the experience, there are initial PTSD symptoms but then she goes on with her life and being promiscuous etc, exhibiting the signs of the underlying PTSD, and then there is another traumatic event somehow similar or so intense ---it would have triggered the PTSD and brought it to the surface.
(example)
http://helpguide.org/mental/post_traumatic_stress_disorder_symptoms_treatment.htm

per the depos and interviews that we have read ICA acted the same after Caylee died as she did before Caylee died. There was nothing different about how she acted. Even if DT is not going to say that Caylee's death gave ICA PTSD, but her PTSD is a result of childhood trauma, Caylee's death should have caused ICA to have symptoms, any symptoms, any reactions related to any trauma - depression brought on by the loss of a child for example. A person that has PTSD as a result of childhood emotional or sexual or physical abuse (which ever applies to DT defense today) would not want to be alone with the perp and ICA picked GA as the person to see her alone at the jail. PTSD just doesn't apply.
(bolded above - ICA wasn't depressed, not reacting applies to a sociopath not a person that has PTSD)

I sure hope that the state already has some experts onboard to state this case in rebuttal. I am sure they do after that strange exchange between the DT and the judge over these new witness additions.

LambChop · Mar 27, 2011

And we all know by KC's jailhouse letters that she has not disassociated herself and, in fact, points the finger right at them. The only problem I see with her story is that it is weak because of the fact she has not had the actual experience. It is hard to visualize something that has not actually happened to you when you don't know how a person would act under those conditions.

KC was stone cold while her father was crying on the stand. Not an emotion from her, nothing. If something traumatic happened to KC, LA would know because by her own admission she told LA everything.

I do not see CA and GA going along with this because of LA and Mallory. There is a good chance the A's will have more grandchildren and this is not the legacy they would want to choose for their future grandchildren. I don't think LA wants to bring his child to a peniatentiary to visit the grandparents. They are walking a fine line as it is. jmo

Whome? · Mar 27, 2011

I don't know if this has been asked,and if so please accept my apology.Can someone tell me will the jury selection of this trial be televised?:waitasec:

LambChop · Mar 27, 2011

Whome? said:
I don't know if this has been asked,and if so please accept my apology.Can someone tell me will the jury selection of this trial be televised?:waitasec:

No, for the protection of the jurors and the case. During the trial you will not see the jurors either. It is for their protection.

MissJames · Mar 27, 2011

LambChop said:
And we all know by KC's jailhouse letters that she has not disassociated herself and, in fact, points the finger right at them. The only problem I see with her story is that it is weak because of the fact she has not had the actual experience. It is hard to visualize something that has not actually happened to you when you don't know how a person would act under those conditions.

KC was stone cold while her father was crying on the stand. Not an emotion from her, nothing. If something traumatic happened to KC, LA would know because by her own admission she told LA everything.

I do not see CA and GA going along with this because of LA and Mallory. There is a good chance the A's will have more grandchildren and this is not the legacy they would want to choose for their future grandchildren. I don't think LA wants to bring his child to a peniatentiary to visit the grandparents. They are walking a fine line as it is. jmo

I'm not sure the A's think that far ahead. Maybe someone should point this out to them.
As for PTSD,are we back to ugly coping? I thought PTSD produced anxiety .ICA did not appear to have a care in the world at Blockbuster,Fusion or Target.
For that matter,I have not seen any of the A's grieving,with the exception of that one video with Michele Bart,when CA looked devastated.
We have seven children and a large extended family on both sides ,plus a lot of very close friends.When my son died the grief was obvious on every single person's face. Hundreds of people ,many different personalities and experiences,including finding my son and working on him,to no avail. I can't think of anyone (okay,maybe the headmaster from the school,but he had to handle the fallout with the other kids) that did not look as though they were grieving.
Having just written that,maybe AF is on to something . The A's just aren't normal! Maybe she has unearthed something? God Bless her if she has unlocked the key to the A family dynamics because the rest of the world seems to be grieving more for Caylee than the Anthony's. Even Dr. G got choked up at the press briefing.

SoCalSleuth · Mar 27, 2011

katydid23 said:
MAYBE they will end up putting her on the stand. What have they got to lose?
All of her lies are already being admitted. And the need to have a defense to explain and justify those lies and all of that 'ugly coping' behavior. It is a desperate tactic but it might be a stunning one.

Possible, but I highly doubt it, she comes with way too much baggage.

LambChop · Mar 27, 2011

MissJames said:
I'm not sure the A's think that far ahead. Maybe someone should point this out to them.
As for PTSD,are we back to ugly coping? I thought PTSD produced anxiety .ICA did not appear to have a care in the world at Blockbuster,Fusion or Target.
For that matter,I have not seen any of the A's grieving,with the exception of that one video with Michele Bart,when CA looked devastated.
We have seven children and a large extended family on both sides ,plus a lot of very close friends.When my son died the grief was obvious on every single person's face. Hundreds of people ,many different personalities and experiences,including finding my son and working on him,to no avail. I can't think of anyone (okay,maybe the headmaster from the school,but he had to handle the fallout with the other kids) that did not look as though they were grieving.
Having just written that,maybe AF is on to something . The A's just aren't normal! Maybe she has unearthed something? God Bless her if she has unlocked the key to the A family dynamics because the rest of the world seems to be grieving more for Caylee than the Anthony's. Even Dr. G got choked up at the press briefing.

I think they just don't want to pick a side. They loved both Caylee and KC equally. They are stuck in the anger part of grieving. I have a friend who lost her husband over 10 years ago to Cancer and she is still angry over it. Sometimes you just get stuck. And I think that is where the A's are, stuck and grieving for both Caylee and KC. jmo

What Is the Defense Strategy?

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