Rehashing, debating and discussing the evidence

logicalgirl said:

So are you saying she overdosed her by mistake? Then she was dead and then she taped her? Because pre-meditation can easily lie in the time it took to cut the first piece of tape.

I guess I don't buy the accidental overdose because it wasn't the first time the name Zanny had been heard. She'd been pretending she had a Nanny for some time...to her friends. To me it was an easy flip for her to make when Lee let her know the OCSD wouldn't just accept the "with the Nanny" story. Suddenly in the blink of an eye, OCA had to come up with a reason why neither the Nanny or Caylee were "available" to go and pick her up.

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I always felt that she overdosed her by mistake (after doping her up numerous times), taped her and dumped her. Still heinous and 1st degree but no premeditation.

Do you really think she meets the profile of a premeditated murderer? I just don't know.

wonders said:

Could someone please tell me what BARD means?

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No! LOL - Beyond a reasonable doubt..

bayouland said:

I always felt that she overdosed her by mistake (after doping her up numerous times), taped her and dumped her. Still heinous and 1st degree but no premeditation.

Do you really think she meets the profile of a premeditated murderer? I just don't know.

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Yes, I do because of the chain of her behaviour. What mother's carries her dead child in the trunk of her car until the smell is overwhelming and then dumps her in a trash swamp.

She had the opportunity to call 911 even if she had given Caylee too much chloroform - since she lies so well she could have said she had no idea what Caylee had eaten...but no - by your theory her response was duct tape, some garbage bags and into the trunk you go! In my mind there is no room for doubt, not after reviewing the evidence again and again looking for any other possible scenario I could imagine - nothing else worked.

my2sense said:

Casey's lack of remorse shown via her actions directly following the death of the baby is all the premeditation i needed to see. Couple that with her attitude during that jail call and that sealed it for me. Jmo

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That's what convinces me. In order for her to have done the staging to make it look like a kidnapping means she would have had to care about what she did. I just don't think she cared. She killed Caylee and left her body in the trunk, only removing it when it smelled too bad. If she was really wanting to stage the kidnapping, why keep Caylee in the car? Why not immediately go dump her somewhere? It just doesn't add up. Casey didn't care enough to go that far to cover herself. It's just not in her to give enough of a crap to be that creative and try to cover up a murder. I think she did really come up with the kidnapping story when her mother pressed her, realizing the ONLY explanation for that duct tape that would work would be that she staged it on purpose. It would be the only explanation her mother would be willing to accept.

Also, she moved on. She was partying, celebrating her newfound, free life. Forget being a sympathetic victim, she was so over Caylee. It didn't matter anymore. It was moving on and living la Bella Vita for Casey, let her lawyers and parents clean this mess up. How does that fit into staging a kidnapping? She didn't act a thing like a mother whose child was kidnapped, yet the staging a kidnapping story is believable? She didn't beg for her baby back or not once act like a grieving mother even though she staged a kidnapping? I just don't get that. She didn't care enough to really play that story out, and she should have. She should have milked it for all it's worth, and she never did. Why stage a kidnapping and then not sell it? No, instead she shows no remorse and goes partying and lying for thirty one days, then lies some more after that. She didn't even go halfway with a kidnapping after supposedly taping up Caylee's face to stage a kidnapping. It just doesn't add up for me.

The only thing that makes sense is that she's cold blooded and lazy, and only came up with the story when her mother was right in her face about it. I think had she fled instead of being too lazy to try to get away, we never EVER would have heard the Zanny story. Instead, Cindy backed Casey against the wall, and thus the kidnapping story was born to cover the cold blooded murder of Caylee. Caylee got in the way of Casey's happiness and life, and Casey got rid of her. If that's not coldblooded, I don't know what is.

wonders said:

Could someone please tell me what BARD means?

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Beyond reasonable doubt ?

RANCH said:

I'm trying to understand here. So you believe that it was second degree murder because the staged kidnapping story fits for you?

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No, absolutely not second degree. 1st degree felony murder.

FELONY MURDER – FIRST DEGREE

§ 782.04(1)(a), Fla. Stat.

To prove the crime of First Degree Felony Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. Caylee Marie Anthony is dead.

2. The death occurred as a consequence of and while Casey Marie Anthony was engaged in the commission of Aggravated Child Abuse.

Or

The death occurred as a consequence of and while Casey Marie Anthony was attempting to commit Aggravated Child Abuse. 3. Casey Marie Anthony was the person who actually killed Caylee Marie Anthony.

In order to convict of First Degree Felony Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove that the defendant had a premeditated design or intent to kill.

Aedrys said:

That's what convinces me. In order for her to have done the staging to make it look like a kidnapping means she would have had to care about what she did. I just don't think she cared. She killed Caylee and left her body in the trunk, only removing it when it smelled too bad. If she was really wanting to stage the kidnapping, why keep Caylee in the car? Why not immediately go dump her somewhere? It just doesn't add up. Casey didn't care enough to go that far to cover herself. It's just not in her to give enough of a crap to be that creative and try to cover up a murder. I think she did really come up with the kidnapping story when her mother pressed her, realizing the ONLY explanation for that duct tape that would work would be that she staged it on purpose. It would be the only explanation her mother would be willing to accept.

And if she was trying to cover it up with a kidnapping, she would have played the grieving mother role a lot better, begging for her baby back, trying to convince people she was a victim. That would have worked better for her story. Instead, she just lied and lied and lied, and then let her lawyers do the talking for her. How was that supposed to work with a kidnapping story? How was anyone supposed to believe her when she never presented herself as a sympathetic victim of a kidnapping? So she staged the kidnapping and only went halfway with it? It doesn't make sense.

The only thing that makes sense is that she's cold blooded and lazy, and only came up with the story when her mother was right in her face about it. I think had she fled instead of being too lazy to try to get away, we never EVER would have heard the Zanny story. Instead, Cindy backed Casey against the wall, and thus the kidnapping story was born to cover the cold blooded murder of Caylee.

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Actually it was Lee telling her the LE were going to insist she take them immediately to pick up Caylee but same diff - that's when she came up with the kidnapping story. And we know how she can turn on a dime with a lie..

bayouland said:

I always felt that she overdosed her by mistake (after doping her up numerous times), taped her and dumped her. Still heinous and 1st degree but no premeditation.

Do you really think she meets the profile of a premeditated murderer? I just don't know.

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And in this case we had aggravated child abuse, a felony,along with felony murder and you have first degree murder.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/murder_first_degree.html

bayouland said:

Well, I could do a flip and ask what of the evidence didn't you believe but that would be kind of snarky and wouldn't be very productive.

But, to answer your questions.
1. I believe the evidence that was presented by Dr. Vass.
2. I do not know where FCA obtained chloroform.
3. I believe FCA gave Caylee chloroform prior to Caylee's death and that wasn't the first time she gave it to her.

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I believe Dr. Vass proved there was an abnormally high amount of chloroform in the trunk. I didn't hear any scientific explanations, or any explanations for that matter, as to how or why there was a high level of chloroform in the trunk. None of the experts, nor the prosecutors gave any explanation about what the high level of chloroform in the trunk proved. Some say you have to connect the dots at this point. I think there are way too many dots to connect, and nothing but speculation to connect them.

So, like you, I believe the chloroform evidence presented by Dr. Vass, I just do not know how to connect it to the single search for how to make chloroform on the A's computer.

I did not see any evidence presented that even suggested that KC was dosing Caylee with chloroform at any time, with the single exception that JA said in closing, "we can only hope that chloroform was used, before the tape, so Caylee didn't suffer."

Was there some evidence at trial that I missed concerning the chloroform?
Or, was the single search for how to make chloroform on the A's computer, combined with Dr. Vass's discovery of a shockingly high level of chloroform in the trunk enough to convince you that KC was dosing Caylee with chloroform?

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

bayouland said:

No, absolutely not second degree. 1st degree felony murder.

FELONY MURDER – FIRST DEGREE

§ 782.04(1)(a), Fla. Stat.

To prove the crime of First Degree Felony Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. Caylee Marie Anthony is dead.

2. The death occurred as a consequence of and while Casey Marie Anthony was engaged in the commission of Aggravated Child Abuse.

Or

The death occurred as a consequence of and while Casey Marie Anthony was attempting to commit Aggravated Child Abuse. 3. Casey Marie Anthony was the person who actually killed Caylee Marie Anthony.

In order to convict of First Degree Felony Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove that the defendant had a premeditated design or intent to kill.

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I guess I was a little slow with my post . Thanks.

logicalgirl said:

Yes, I do because of the chain of her behaviour. What mother's carries her dead child in the trunk of her car until the smell is overwhelming and then dumps her in a trash swamp.

She had the opportunity to call 911 even if she had given Caylee too much chloroform - since she lies so well she could have said she had no idea what Caylee had eaten...but no - by your theory her response was duct tape, some garbage bags and into the trunk you go! In my mind there is no room for doubt, not after reviewing the evidence again and again looking for any other possible scenario I could imagine - nothing else worked.

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No mother carries her dead child in the trunk and then dumps her in the trash. I agree 100% unless she is scared chitless because she knows that she can't call 911 and report an accident when it was chloroform.

If I were to believe premediatation it would be because she was at that video store soon afterwards. I'm just not there yet.

I absolutely see your points.

thedeviledadvocate said:

I believe Dr. Vass proved there was an abnormally high amount of chloroform in the trunk. I didn't hear any scientific explanations, or any explanations for that matter, as to how or why there was a high level of chloroform in the trunk. None of the experts, nor the prosecutors gave any explanation about what the high level of chloroform in the trunk proved. Some say you have to connect the dots at this point. I think there are way too many dots to connect, and nothing but speculation to connect them.

So, like you, I believe the chloroform evidence presented by Dr. Vass, I just do not know how to connect it to the single search for how to make chloroform on the A's computer.

I did not see any evidence presented that even suggested that KC was dosing Caylee with chloroform at any time, with the single exception that JA said in closing, "we can only hope that chloroform was used, before the tape, so Caylee didn't suffer."

Was there some evidence at trial that I missed concerning the chloroform?
Or, was the single search for how to make chloroform on the A's computer, combined with Dr. Vass's discovery of a shockingly high level of chloroform in the trunk enough to convince you that KC was dosing Caylee with chloroform?

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

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The how is easy. KC did it. The why is to sedate Caylee. No need for any science. To prove she did it is harder I agree. But why was the chloroform in that trunk at all?

logicalgirl said:

TheDevilsAdvocate- up thread where you speak of the chloroform not being proven so not premeditated, premeditation can be in the blink of an eye, or the time it takes to peel a piece of duct tape, cut it and place it on the child's face.

Certainly premeditation comes with the same process for the second and third piece.

Premeditation does not have to mean she balanced and weighed her decision and then decided - yes, this is something I am going to do.

We have all heard it said that premeditation is the time between pointing a gun and squeezing the trigger - in the blink of an eye...

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I understand what you are saying, and agree with you that premeditation can be in the blink of an eye, legally speaking. I personally do not agree with it from my own point of view, but I don't make the laws, so yes, legally premeditation can occur in the blink of an eye.

I do not think there was premeditation, because, I do not think the chloroform was proven BARD, nor do I think the use of duct tape was proven BARD.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

thedeviledadvocate said:

I believe Dr. Vass proved there was an abnormally high amount of chloroform in the trunk. I didn't hear any scientific explanations, or any explanations for that matter, as to how or why there was a high level of chloroform in the trunk. None of the experts, nor the prosecutors gave any explanation about what the high level of chloroform in the trunk proved. Some say you have to connect the dots at this point. I think there are way too many dots to connect, and nothing but speculation to connect them.

So, like you, I believe the chloroform evidence presented by Dr. Vass, I just do not know how to connect it to the single search for how to make chloroform on the A's computer.

I did not see any evidence presented that even suggested that KC was dosing Caylee with chloroform at any time, with the single exception that JA said in closing, "we can only hope that chloroform was used, before the tape, so Caylee didn't suffer."

Was there some evidence at trial that I missed concerning the chloroform?
Or, was the single search for how to make chloroform on the A's computer, combined with Dr. Vass's discovery of a shockingly high level of chloroform in the trunk enough to convince you that KC was dosing Caylee with chloroform?

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

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Thank you.

Unlike you, I don't feel I need to connect the dots. I don't need searches for how to make chloroform on the Ants computer to tie FCA to the chloroform. That would just be lagniappe (extra) as we say in Louisiana.

The evidence proved there was a ridiculous level of chloroform in FCA's trunk and that Caylee Marie was in that trunk. That is all I need.

I believe Caylee was sedated more than once by chloroform and more than likely other things as well but that doesn't matter either. Why? Because it only takes once and it is felony child abuse. There are times that Caylee was not around FCA and she wasn't with Grama. Where was she? This is written somewhere in all the pages and pages of documents and I really don't want to dig through them but I remember reading it.

RANCH said:

I watched the trial but not the Dr D show so I'm not sure what the quote means. The photos that I have seen have left me with a desire to see more, in order to help me understand the jury's decision. What I do know about the tape evidence leads me to believe in a premeditated murder.IMO.

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In a nutshell, JA was saying he presented the evidence he had, as best he could, and since the jury acquitted, they didn't see things the way he had.

thedeviledadvocate said:

In a nutshell, JA was saying he presented the evidence he had, as best he could, and since the jury acquitted, they didn't see things the way he had.

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That's all? What else would anyone expect him to say? How dose that explain the jury's decision?

RANCH said:

That's all? What else would anyone expect him to say? How dose that explain the jury's decision?

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That doesn't explain the jury's decision, sorry, I guess I misunderstood. That just shows JA accepted the jury's decision, even though he disagrees with it.

thedeviledadvocate said:

That doesn't explain the jury's decision, sorry, I guess I misunderstood. That just shows JA accepted the jury's decision, even though he disagrees with it.

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Ok. It's actually my misunderstanding. I thought there was more to the Dr. D show quote. Thanks.

Aedrys said:

That's what convinces me. In order for her to have done the staging to make it look like a kidnapping means she would have had to care about what she did. I just don't think she cared. She killed Caylee and left her body in the trunk, only removing it when it smelled too bad. If she was really wanting to stage the kidnapping, why keep Caylee in the car? Why not immediately go dump her somewhere? It just doesn't add up. Casey didn't care enough to go that far to cover herself. It's just not in her to give enough of a crap to be that creative and try to cover up a murder. I think she did really come up with the kidnapping story when her mother pressed her, realizing the ONLY explanation for that duct tape that would work would be that she staged it on purpose. It would be the only explanation her mother would be willing to accept.

Also, she moved on. She was partying, celebrating her newfound, free life. Forget being a sympathetic victim, she was so over Caylee. It didn't matter anymore. It was moving on and living la Bella Vita for Casey, let her lawyers and parents clean this mess up. How does that fit into staging a kidnapping? She didn't act a thing like a mother whose child was kidnapped, yet the staging a kidnapping story is believable? She didn't beg for her baby back or not once act like a grieving mother even though she staged a kidnapping? I just don't get that. She didn't care enough to really play that story out, and she should have. She should have milked it for all it's worth, and she never did. Why stage a kidnapping and then not sell it? No, instead she shows no remorse and goes partying and lying for thirty one days, then lies some more after that. She didn't even go halfway with a kidnapping after supposedly taping up Caylee's face to stage a kidnapping. It just doesn't add up for me.

The only thing that makes sense is that she's cold blooded and lazy, and only came up with the story when her mother was right in her face about it. I think had she fled instead of being too lazy to try to get away, we never EVER would have heard the Zanny story. Instead, Cindy backed Casey against the wall, and thus the kidnapping story was born to cover the cold blooded murder of Caylee. Caylee got in the way of Casey's happiness and life, and Casey got rid of her. If that's not coldblooded, I don't know what is.

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This is exactly how I feel. Why would you stage a kidnapping then NOT REPORT IT? Cold blooded lazy murderer. you nailed it my friend.

ETA: If you were staging a kidnapping KC, why 3 pieces of duct tape over your dead daughters face? One should have done it, but 3? overlapped? You couldn't sell that story to lifetime network.

Looks like KC may still want to get that house. jmo