AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - # 7

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The group was headed toward East Cooper Street, which is one street south of East 12th Street, where the Celis home is.
They are not suspects in the 6-year-old's disappearance, but police hope that perhaps the group saw something out of the ordinary that could help them determine what happened to the little girl. Police confirmed that a sixth person who wasn't with the group was briefly seen in the video, Pacheco said at a Saturday afternoon news briefing.


Read more: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/cri...e04-5a42-bb95-5f3208d5f129.html#ixzz1tSOeSUDb


I really think LE wants the creeper to know they saw him there. And they have 5 other witnesses who may have also seen him there.

ETA: of course LE has the entire video from that night and could well have seen the creeper as long as he hid there. We are only seeing the part where the group walks past.
 
Thinkzerz said:
I don't think it would make a difference if the parents spoke to the media again. But you think they would want to speak out to whoever has Isa. JMO

Tara McDonald mother of Victoria Stafford made media come to her house everyday. Turned out many people blamed her for her daughters disappearance. When she had nothing to do with it. Even though she was being blamed she still came out to media to keep things going in the public eye.
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I am not ready to blame the parents yet but if you were guilty or had some level of involvement in this I would think the last thing you would want to do is be talking to the media and risk tripping up or saying something inconsistent with what you told the authorities etc. The fact that they have shied away from the media is curious IMO but I try not to read in to things like that too much sans any evidence.
 
gliving said:
The group was headed toward East Cooper Street, which is one street south of East 12th Street, where the Celis home is.
They are not suspects in the 6-year-old's disappearance, but police hope that perhaps the group saw something out of the ordinary that could help them determine what happened to the little girl. Police confirmed that a sixth person who wasn't with the group was briefly seen in the video, Pacheco said at a Saturday afternoon news briefing.


Read more: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/cri...e04-5a42-bb95-5f3208d5f129.html#ixzz1tSOeSUDb


I really think LE wants the creeper to know they saw him there. And they have 5 other witnesses who may have also seen him there.

ETA: of course LE has the entire video from that night and could well have seen the creeper as long as he hid there. We are only seeing the part where the group walks past.
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It definitely would be interesting to know how long this individual was "lurking" and what direction he is seen leaving toward when he does get off the surveillance video.

MOO
 
Prof said:
Yes, you are making sense.
The person he mentioned who self-identified was one of the five walkers, and TPD hoped to get in touch with the other 4 through the self-identifier.

The figure behind the wall was known to them before they released the video.

It is rumored on local news pages that TPD had this video for quite a few days before they released it.

In the presser on Friday, when they released it, a poster on the previous thread seemed to hear LE say that they had contact with anyone else in video, and were only looking for these five as possible witnesses simply because they were in the area during the hours between 11 pm and 8 am.

I hope that helps.
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Thanks Prof:thumb:

I just looked at the video again in full screen and now see why I was confused I think. The group was five not four like I thought.

I'm surprised that this group of 5 people haven't come forward yet......Too drunk to remember/don't want to get involved?
 
:what:
gliving said:
The group was headed toward East Cooper Street, which is one street south of East 12th Street, where the Celis home is.
They are not suspects in the 6-year-old's disappearance, but police hope that perhaps the group saw something out of the ordinary that could help them determine what happened to the little girl. Police confirmed that a sixth person who wasn't with the group was briefly seen in the video, Pacheco said at a Saturday afternoon news briefing.


Read more: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/cri...e04-5a42-bb95-5f3208d5f129.html#ixzz1tSOeSUDb


I really think LE wants the creeper to know they saw him there. And they have 5 other witnesses who may have also seen him there.

ETA: of course LE has the entire video from that night and could well have seen the creeper as long as he hid there. We are only seeing the part where the group walks past.
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That's exactly what I think - and the reason why the video clip was the few seconds longer than it needed to be just for the five people. Police gave a little taste of the sixth person with the hope one or more of the group of five come forward with something. What is on the next ten seconds of that video, is what I want to know, it's not like the video just stopped there. Police were being very elusive about that other person and the only people who could have seen him/her is in that group. And I thought at firsts it could have been someone relieving themself but the more I watch how they kind off moved back and forth, it seemed like they were hiding and wanted to make sure the group was away.

Now I'm going to reclaim my mbpro from my lovely 4 year old so I can give her this iPad back. Not used to the typing!
 
oceanblueeyes said:
I am not talking about what was reported by a 911 call being made.

I am talking about actual cases where it was established the child HAD really died accidentally and then was thrown away and some big coverup happened.

I have seen absolutely no evidence to even consider abuse happening to Isa. She was much loved and adored by her family who are decent caring parents, imo. And not one person has said anything differently.

I also have seen no connection to drugs either. If fact I read LE said the 'drug connection' was misplaced. So even they do not think this has a thing to do with drugs, imo

In the cases you have listed above it was very evident there were major issues in the family dynamics. None of those issues are present in this case with these parents, imo.
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None of us have many facts, but remember Fabian Pacheco's comment that things are not always as they appear. There could be troubles within the family. We just don't know.
 
LE may well have enough video to show the 6th person returning to his workplace after dumping trash, i.e or some other activity that explained his presence. It is not as though LE is going to explain anything in this case, they have not been so far. JMO
 
I drove thru the area in back of the Office Max this morning, sorry did not have camera...it is a driveway just north of an entrance to St Joes, its a driveway wide enough for two cars and well traveled enough to have speed bumps in it. Of interest was a tree next to the wall that had yellow tap wrapped around it, looked to be police tape, as I could make out 'do not cross' on it. The tree itself is beside couple piles of bound cardboard sitting on a wood pallet on the side of the curb. So looked to me like at one time they had bound the area off for some sort of police examination/forensics...nothing else remarkable about the area, except to say that the dumpster for Office Max is up against the Office Max building, snug up to the western side, so whoever the figure is in the film, he ain't taking out the trash...
 
galiuro! Thank you. Was the container still there?
 
galiuro said:
I drove thru the area in back of the Office Max this morning, sorry did not have camera...it is a driveway just north of an entrance to St Joes, its a driveway wide enough for two cars and well traveled enough to have speed bumps in it. Of interest was a tree next to the wall that had yellow tap wrapped around it, looked to be police tape, as I could make out 'do not cross' on it. The tree itself is beside couple piles of bound cardboard sitting on a wood pallet on the side of the curb. So looked to me like at one time they had bound the area off for some sort of police examination/forensics...nothing else remarkable about the area, except to say that the dumpster for Office Max is up against the Office Max building, snug up to the western side, so whoever the figure is in the film, he ain't taking out the trash...
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Interesting.....so the same tree that the figure appeared from?
 
No, the large white container seen in the google pics is not there.

I will say that it is very easy to get back there, so some of you locals who are better versed in this sort of thing, it is not hard to get to and in fact has quite a bit of local traffic driving around back there.
 
galiuro said:
I drove thru the area in back of the Office Max this morning, sorry did not have camera...it is a driveway just north of an entrance to St Joes, its a driveway wide enough for two cars and well traveled enough to have speed bumps in it. Of interest was a tree next to the wall that had yellow tap wrapped around it, looked to be police tape, as I could make out 'do not cross' on it. The tree itself is beside couple piles of bound cardboard sitting on a wood pallet on the side of the curb. So looked to me like at one time they had bound the area off for some sort of police examination/forensics...nothing else remarkable about the area, except to say that the dumpster for Office Max is up against the Office Max building, snug up to the western side, so whoever the figure is in the film, he ain't taking out the trash...
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Thank you!
Can you describe where the tree was in location to the trash area next to the building of the Office Max?

Here is another possibility...
Another local in an earlier thread named the area there between the old Circuit City and Office Max (but mistakenly called it Party City) as the OLD or FIRST Command Post for LE, so the tape may have been there for that.

NOTE: The local noted that the whole area was roped off, so it could be tape left from command post and vigil

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Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #7
 
galiuro said:
I drove thru the area in back of the Office Max this morning, sorry did not have camera...it is a driveway just north of an entrance to St Joes, its a driveway wide enough for two cars and well traveled enough to have speed bumps in it. Of interest was a tree next to the wall that had yellow tap wrapped around it, looked to be police tape, as I could make out 'do not cross' on it. The tree itself is beside couple piles of bound cardboard sitting on a wood pallet on the side of the curb. So looked to me like at one time they had bound the area off for some sort of police examination/forensics...nothing else remarkable about the area, except to say that the dumpster for Office Max is up against the Office Max building, snug up to the western side, so whoever the figure is in the film, he ain't taking out the trash...
Click to expand...

Interesting! Thank you! Did you notice if there were security cams on the back of the Office Max. I would assume there is as this seems to be SOP now days for big box stores. But a visual confirmation would be great.
 
I wish I could find Friday's presser where LE stated that they were only trying to identify the five, and anyone else in the video is already known. I was lead to believe that the man behind the wall was already known to LE. Seriously, we can assume they have had that video all week.
 
DollyPardonMe said:
marazul said:
Hello, everyone. Thanks for all the great visuals. I joined WS during the Jorelys Rivera case because I am very local to that, and this case has had my attention, but I didn't want to reply until I read all the threads so I can enter caught - up.

I have a few cents to throw in.
I notice that in many replies, we are saying things like "I think it was someone known to the family because they knew the dogs wouldn't bark", and that, IMO, is not at all proven. For example, maybe the perp had no idea if the Celis family had dogs or not, and took the chance. Maybe everyone on that road knows the dogs bark at every passerby and passing bar patron and squirrel or cat passing every night, so they assumed one more barking episode at night wouldn't wake the family in panic. Maybe they had witnessed the dogs roaming the neighborhood and knew that even though they bark, they are stranger-friendly. I haven't heard anyone say directly, "the dogs always bark at noise at night and this night there was zero barking." we just don't know.

The uncle is not hinky to me. Does he seem a little Kato-like, sporty, maybe immature? Umm yes. But he also seems well socialized, friends of both sexes (per fb), laid back, not apparently into creepy stuff (Shawn Adkins type)..sometimes the goofy, fun uncle really is just the goofy fun uncle. Also, the family does not seem the type to allow unsavory characters too close, they seem responsible with their careers, they seem like involved parents, not likely to let the man stay so close if they didn't trust him, and I have seen no reason to doubt their judgement. On IS vs. WAS, IMO if someone says, for example, "she was always playing, friendly to everyone..." vs. "is always playing..."that doesn't mean they didn't say IS because now she's dead, it means they didn't say IS because now she's missing or kidnapped or GONE.

Last quick thing.. As a bluish eyed, medium brown haired Cuban American, I get mistaken for "gringa" all day, every day. Highly annoying. Latinos come in all colors, from the lightest person you can imagine, to the darkest. Latinos are mistaken for caucasian and African American all the time. We don't know his race, and with multiple marriages, step families, etc, a last name doesn't give it away.if you separate his last name into 2, you get a Hispanic last name, anyways. There are so many interracial families that I automatically get defensive when there is an feeling of someone "not belonging" to a family because his or her skin doesn't match.

In these cases, we root for the parents, we want them cleared, at the same time, if it was an inside job, we will feel just a little safer knowing that it wasn't a random window kidnapper...I just don't see any kind of good ending but miracles happen.
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Hi marazul and welcome!
BBM This is a little O/T but I read it in so many of the threads when there are Hispanics that I feel I have to get one thing straight. Latinos ARE Caucasian! I am Spanish American on fathers side and Mexican American on my mothers side and my birth certificate says "white". In the later 50's they changed the birth certificates to read Caucasian. Sorry, but like you I get highly defensive too.
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Latinos are not necessarily Caucasian. Most Latinos from Mexico are indigenous/European mix, not straight Caucasian. Some are black, etc. Latinos comes in all colors! That's why there is a box to check for "non-white Hispanic" on many forms.

FrayedKnot said:
There are plenty of cases where the parents called 911 to report a missing child who, as it turns out was harmed and killed (or presumed killed) by those same parents.

Shaniya? Zahra? Jhessye? Aliyah? Ethan? Ayla? Baby Lisa?

I didn't say that Isa likely died as a result of a simple accident. I said that likely her death may have occurred accidentally during some type of abuse (like I said before felony homicide) which is why the family would have staged a kidnapping scenario.

Just like quite a few of these other cases. And seeing as how this sort of thing seems to happening more and more, I think it is EXTREMELY possible and probable. More likely than a drug kidnapping or child trafficking or unknown intruder.

Of course this is only MOO as far as Isa's case, but to say that such a thing has never happened ever is factually wrong.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Right. There are many more cases where a child dies from abuse, not intentionally murdered, but homicide due to abuse, and they cover it up with a "kidnapping." I'm thinking that is the case with many of our missing kids who have not been found yet, like Hailey Dunn, Baby Lisa, Haleigh Cummings, Ayla Reynolds, Aliayah Lunsford, etc.

It is a viable theory in such a case at this. But, like Oceanblueeyes, I don't feel the parents in this case fit the pattern at all. Usually the type that abuse their kids to death and try to cover it up are younger parents, or often step parents or new, blended families with new boyfriends/girlfriends in the picture, and usually the families have a much lower economic status and often a criminal history involving drugs.

But, it makes sense to look at the possibility of that angle.

eileenhawkeye said:
But The UK also their share of sensational high-profile cases. From what I'm reading, these cases got massive coverage over there, so it's safe to say that MSM was reporting on them too. Maddie McCann, James Bulger, Rosie Palmer, Holly Wells, Jessica Chapman, Leanne Tiernan, Kelly Anne Bates, Suzanne Capper, Victoria Climbie, Milly Dowler, Danielle Jones, Rhys Jones, Ben Kinsella, Sarah Payne, Tia Rigg, Hannah Williams. What's the difference between those cases and "our" high-profile cases? I'm reading the circumstances of the cases I referenced here, and it's hard for me to think that there wasn't sensationalism in the reporting, or the reason why the cases made the news.
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The UK is much more similar statistically to the US than the rest of Western Europe when it comes to sex crimes/crimes against children.

gliving said:
The father and son entering the home is very odd. Were they there to offer help? The videos says the son was tensely interviewed by LE. Then he and his dad show up at the Celis home and go right in the courtyard. It's almost like they wanted a reason for their fingerprints and scent to be there. Was this before or after the search dogs worked the home? I wonder if the Celis' have had trouble with this kid before? Why would LE intensely interview him similar to the way they interviewed the RSO neighbor.

Or maybe the kid saw something that night, or knows a pervy kid, and wanted to make sure the Celis family knew about it. That almost makes more sense.
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dimples37398 said:
Did you guys see this video of the neighbor who I think it says was questioned extensively and then are seen going in and out of the celis courtyard. It is about 1:40 in the video.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-tu...ce-videos-hold/story?id=16210060#.T52K_9nh58E
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It really irritated me. Watch again how they just hang on that door handle like they have a right to be there, even while the police are talking to them. And, didn't I hear that they went over there AFTER being tensely questioned? Or, am I wrong about that. One would think that a man and his teenaged son would be the last people to want to be seen lurking around the house where a baby girl has gone missing. Who are they and what right did they think they had to be there?
 
ehough22 said:
I also think, when it comes to accidental death, there are two "types"....one is a legitimate accident- she fell and hit her head, got hit with a baseball, drowned, etc. In that case it is, I agree, hard to discern why a parent would cover that up (looking at you, Casey).

The other type of accident is an accident that occurred in the course of abuse - sexual or physical. Quite different, imo. While I don't mean to imply we have any reason to suspect Isa was being abused, I don't think it is that far fetched to speculate that someone (not necessarily a parent) accidentally killed her during the course of abuse and rather than admit to accidental death AND abuse, staged a cover up. I'm not saying that's my theory, but that's more what I think of when it comes to an accidental death theory.
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Thank you. This is what I have been trying to say.

And this is ALL total speculation anyway, but I wasn't referring to an honest to God accidental death, but one under circumstances that would mean scrutiny and worse for the family.

Like leaving her at the park or giving her too much medicine or yes, actual physical abuse.

I fail to see how this theory is non-sensical but Isa being kidnapped by an evil drug cartel seems more plausible.

Especially since none of us actually KNOWS what happened, anything is possible.

I was just listing various possibilities and pondering their likelihood.


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Boodles said:
None of us have many facts, but remember Fabian Pacheco's comment that things are not always as they appear. There could be troubles within the family. We just don't know.
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This is another thing to consider-we know virtually nothing about the family dynamic so all we can do is to speculate on what might be.

Some posters say they got a really sincere vibe from the parents at the pc, while others jumped the fence after hearing and seeing them speak.

But we just don't know enough to say they do or do not fit any profile.


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gliving said:
The father and son entering the home is very odd. Were they there to offer help? The videos says the son was tensely interviewed by LE. Then he and his dad show up at the Celis home and go right in the courtyard. It's almost like they wanted a reason for their fingerprints and scent to be there. Was this before or after the search dogs worked the home? I wonder if the Celis' have had trouble with this kid before? Why would LE intensely interview him similar to the way they interviewed the RSO neighbor.

Or maybe the kid saw something that night, or knows a pervy kid, and wanted to make sure the Celis family knew about it. That almost makes more sense.
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I looked at this video again. And again. Something seems...off kilter about the kid who went over to the house with his father.. Have no idea why I feel this,but I do.

Also, the narrator on the video mentions that the Celis family was not there when they went over.

Something not right with this...MOO
 
Will have to look at the video again for the answer about the tree...

As for the Office Max dumpster, the tree is pretty much directly opposite the trash bin...so yea, it could have been the tape that was used to rope off the area from the beginning...

I did not SEE any cameras but in the little parking area between Office Max and old Circuit City there are warnings posted that there are surveillance cameras. This parking area does not have access to the main parking area, there is a curb between it.
 
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