Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

Originally Posted by Ardy

Consider the evidence, wherever it leads, but don't take TLM's word for anything.JMO................

BBM and snipped. Sorry counldn't find the original post so piggybacked off Allison's post.


If I didn't take TLM's word for anything then I couldn't take her word that she killed Tori or that she was the one that stomped and kicked her. Personally, I do believe that she killed TS, but I also believe that MTR helped. Both sides of the hammer was used. I would think it strange that she stopped in mid-kill to change which side of the hammer she was using. I would think it less strange if there had been more than the number of strikes the pathologist testitied to.

JayFriend said:

He does not have to prove MTR innocent because by our legal system he's already presumed innocent. He just has to create enough spin and confusion in the minds of the jury to raise reasonable doubt as to MTR's guilt. Like it or not, that's the system we're stuck with. The Crown has to work very hard to produce a guilty verdict.

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Ok I probably formed my question wrong because that wasn't the answer I was expecting. I know he doesn't have to prove his innocence. Anyway... nvm, I'll figure it out

Wondergirl said:

BBM: Funny thing is Otto, even Rafferty's Defense has admitted his guilt. He admitted MTR "cleaned up" Victoria's remains (because he had to, just look at all the physical evidence).

So, Derstine is not even attempting to claim innocence for his client.

JMO

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IMO, he never admitted it, he suggested it as another theory. He also suggested that Rafferty was horrified by what TLM had done. Interesting that people don't take that as fact, yet they take the part about him helping to clean up as fact. JMO.

nobodyzgirl said:

IMO, he never admitted it, he suggested it as another theory. He also suggested that Rafferty was horrified by what TLM had done. Interesting that people don't take that as fact, yet they take the part about him helping to clean up as fact. JMO.

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If he was that horrified, why did he help clean up the crime scen or just continue on with his life as if nothing happened. Why did he put that family through hell maybe never knowing if their little girl would ever be found. Ps why would defense suggest that if it wasn't true? Defense could have said he wasn't there at all.

nobodyzgirl said:

IMO, he never admitted it, he suggested it as another theory. He also suggested that Rafferty was horrified by what TLM had done. Interesting that people don't take that as fact, yet they take the part about him helping to clean up as fact. JMO.

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JMO

"one can't see the forest for the trees" comes to mind...whatever fits...just saying... JMO hopefully all will be revealed down the road...I have nothing invested in this so whatever the decision of the courts...well so be it...JMO

Hello_Kitty said:

If he was that horrified, why did he help clean up the crime scen or just continue on with his life as if nothing happened. Why did he put that family through hell maybe never knowing if their little girl would ever be found. Ps why would defense suggest that if it wasn't true? Defense could have said he wasn't there at all.

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JMO don't think the defence is going to state at the start that their client was not there..that would be very foolish IMO ...maybe in his summary but never at the start....

Macright said:

Well I have already answered that question a few pages back. ....can't imagine anyone even suggesting that he is totally innocent of all charges...but I can understand why some, me included are undecided about some of the charges.. JMO..also I would hate to see someone convicted of a 1st degree murder charge when in this instance someone other than the current accused has testified that it was in fact SHE who did the deed... I think the crown would have to have more proof than they have shown to get him on a 1st degree murder charge but hey one never knows...the law works in mysterious ways...or so they say....JMO

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Why would he get less than 1st degree murder? He deserves to get first degree murder. He was the driver, he participated in the kidnapping, he paid for a drove tlm to home depot to buy the murder weapon, he chose the area to kill her, he raped her and then helped clean up the body. He also didn't tell a sole where her body was because he knew he would have been charged. So he destroyed evidence and lied.

He deserves 1 st degree murder even if he didn't kill tori.

He <modsnip> needs to spend the rest of his life in prison.

My take on the two beings that committed the heinous brutal acts of abducting, torturing, raping, savagely murdering, concealing her precious little body, disposing of the most obvious evidence btwn the two, and then going about their merry lives conspiring of how to lie and deceive authorities upon their ever being questioned about the numerous brutal crimes they'd both committed.. My take on these two has always been this..

Each of these individuals alone were of no good IMO.. Each of them alone were of evil intentions throughout their lives.. Each of them were committing criminal acts and behaviors on a daily basis and had been for years.. Each of them were liars with no moral fiber, nor even attempts at bettering themselves.. Each of them were satisfied living their lives in the seedier side of life fueled with drugs, sex, lies, and criminal acts came naturally for them both.. Each IMO had no issue whatsoever with committing various criminal acts with zero regard for other human beings who happened to be negatively impacted or even hurt by their choices that they made.. Each had little self worth and filled that vacant hole with drugs, sex, and engaging in a dangerous lifestyle that again included criminal behaviors and actions.. Each of these individual alone IMO had no issue morally of taking a human life if it served as a means to an end for them.. And tho the "end" result would be the same in that a life was taken however the "means" for which they felt it necessary to have taken the life could not have been more different from the other..

For example TLM was needy of acceptance and that primarily throughout her young life equaled "street" acceptance.. Street acceptance is earned through your ability to be ruthless and brutal.. Lie, steal, cheat, beat people to a pulp, and even kill if necessary to prove your "hard" or "tough".. IMO these were the type "means" that would have led TLM to taking a life as the "end" result of her proving her toughness..

This could not be any more opposite of the spectrum of difference from what IMO MR's "means" would be that he find it necessary that taking a life would be the "end" to that means.. Whereas TLM's motive behind both the means and the end was essentially based of nothing but a desperate need for acceptance.. Desperate need for love.. Thus why you see her means that would lead her to have taken a human life was essentially completely based on a desperate need to be loved.. MR's IMO is nothing remotely similar or near to what TLMs "means" were.. IMO MR's means were not based upon proving himself worthy of being loved and accepted by another as TLM's were.. No, MR's "means" are as self satisfying and evil as they come IMO.. His means were that for nothing but his own sick self serving pleasure of sexually and deviancy satisfying from a young, helpless, defenseless, 110+% vulnerable small child.. This entirely self consumed "means" is what would lead to a human life being taken as an "ends" to that mean.. Again for nothing but self consummation in his having to take the life for self preservation..

So, while I absolutely believe that both of these two individuals alone were absolutely more than capable of having to take a human life as the end to their means.. But what it is that is each of their "means" is what sets them apart in terms of seeing for which is based out of purely evil..

IMOO that could not be more crystal clear as to whose core is an all consuming darkness and evil of which is likened to looking into the soul of the devil himself.. And to whose core sadly lead them to the same "end" in taking a human life but when studied as to what's behind the eyes and into the deepest parts of ones soul IMO it becomes apparent that one was based sadly out of a desperation for love and acceptance.. IMO that makes her no less guilty, culpable, and morally and legally wrong.. But what it tells me is this..

TLM an alone individual trudging thru her dark and vacant life would have never alone found an "end" to any "means" be the taking of Victoria Stafford's life.. This is moo..

However, It is equally moo that MR would have absolutely found the end to his means to be the taking of Victiria Stafford's life or any other defenseless child that sadly had the misfortune of being a victim of MR's "means" which again his "means" were the self serving deviant and sexual satisfaction that he derived from preying on, overpowering and sexually using the body of any small defenseless child that became available to him..

There are very very very different motivators that lead each of these to killing Tori.. They both are totally responsible for her murder.. But where the divide for me lies is that IMO one of them alone and without the other IMO would not have taken the life of a defenseless small child(and brutally abused and raped and ravaged the childs body) before actually savagely killing the child.. While IMO the other of the two individuals ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT QUESTION IMO would have brutally and savagely raped tortured and killed Tori Stafford or any other child that was available to him.. And IMO if/when he were to walk freely the face of this earth IMO he very likely will do so again..

That has no difference for me as far as they're both absolutely guilty as hell on all charges IMO.. But rather the division is much farther down where the great divide begins the difference between these two beings involved in killing Tori.. Jmo, tho!!


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Posting via mobile as well as via tablet so plz forgive all typos.. Btwn the sucky touch keyboard and the obsessive auto-correct it's a big ol' mess :crazy:

Macright said:

respectfully do you think an eight year old child would know about oxy's...JMO

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Anyone buying a baggie of illegally obtained drugs would not be dangling them about going from the house to his car parked on the road. He would put them in his pocket and probably keep them there. There wouldn't even be a need for him to talk about it with TLM, as she knew all along what they were there for. She did ask him for some and he refused. He may even have transferred the bag into his glove compartment, but I doubt he'd trust TLM not to take some, so IMO he either kept them in his pocket, or stashed them under his seat. There was no reason whatsoever for Tori to know what he had or how many of them. Nobody would choose to murder a child instead of risk getting busted for a few pills.

JMHO

Hello_Kitty said:

If I didn't take TLM's word for anything then I couldn't take her word that she killed Tori or that she was the one that stomped and kicked her. Personally, I do believe that she killed TS, but I also believe that MTR helped. Both sides of the hammer was used. I would think it strange that she stopped in mid-kill to change which side of the hammer she was using. I would think it less strange if there had been more than the number of strikes the pathologist testitied to.

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(RSBM)

She didn't have to stop. I believe that both sides of the hammer were used because TLM swung that tool in both directions - frantically swinging her arm in a wide arc from left to right and then back again from right to left, etc. during her drug-fueled rage.

JMO

Alison said:

Except for when she admits that she kills VS right? Then it is written in stone right?
I agree she was not manipulated. I believe she was an equal participant in a horrendous crime. They are both responsible for the death of a child. No matter how you slice it he was involved in some way shape or form. I hope they send him to the Haven and put him in with gen pop. Then he will really know what it is to feel terrified just like VS.

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BBM: That's the thing. You can pick and choose what you believe of TLM's testimony, but, in the end, if the Crown shows corroborating evidence, then that leaves no doubt.

JayFriend said:

He does not have to prove MTR innocent because by our legal system he's already presumed innocent. He just has to create enough spin and confusion in the minds of the jury to raise reasonable doubt as to MTR's guilt. Like it or not, that's the system we're stuck with. The Crown has to work very hard to produce a guilty verdict.

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Exactly. BS baffles brains.

And that's what coming.

BS.

Anyone following Victoria's case has read and seen the BS themselves.

If Derstine uses all the rumours, innuendos and BS that filled the Internet for years on this case, and presents it to the jury as "evidence" of his innocence, do you think the jury will buy it?

Derstine follows a really slippery slope on this strategy, because, the jury will sense the BS, smoke and mirrors when they hear it, and at some point, it insults their intelligence.

JMO

nobodyzgirl said:

IMO, he never admitted it, he suggested it as another theory. He also suggested that Rafferty was horrified by what TLM had done. Interesting that people don't take that as fact, yet they take the part about him helping to clean up as fact. JMO.

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Horrified as in texting multiple women the night of his clean-up?

Horrified as in happily having sex the next day after his clean-up?

Horrified as in engaging on POF and hooking up with Meloche, while planning the twins birthday party with the woman he was pimping?

Horrified as in changing his status on his social media accounts, to reflect that he was concerned about Tori being missing?

Horrifed as in texting people directly associated with Tori's mother, to engage in conversations about the the child whose remains he had helped clean up?

Horrified as in attempting to ditch his Blackberry, Car, and God-only-knows what other evidence, directly linking him to the crime?

Horrified as in completely lying to Detectives when questioned about "that girl"?

Which horrifed might you be referring to? Just curious.

crazyladi said:

So it's possible that we're not hearing everything? There seems to be many holes and unasked questions that I am really curious if there is something the jury is hearing but we are not.

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There is nothing important that is deliberately being withheld from the public, except legal discussions that take place when the jury is absent. There are no publication bans on what is being presented as evidence during this trial while the jury members are in the courtroom.

But, as Salem and Ardy pointed out, small details may be missed due to the difficulty of listening and Tweeting simultaneously. Several of the publications have one reporter in the actual courtroom to watch and take notes (they're not allowed to Tweet) and a second one in the satellite room doing live Tweets. Still, they miss the odd thing or two, but they're usually of little consequence.

When I was there for the full day on the 13th, I took continuous notes. When I later compared them to the Tweets and online articles, I could only find one little fact that they had missed. I later found out that it really wasn't that important.

JMO

Comment From Jo
Why can't you report on the legal issue discussions? What is the reasoning since people in the court room can hear them.
12:09

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12:11
Mike Knoll: @Jo - we can only report on what the jury hears. It is assumed that the people in the courtroom hearing the arguments won't tell the jury what is being said. Media has a louder 'voice' than your average observer

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One of them used the hammer or perhaps they took turns swinging and clawing with the hammer.

Both participated in stomping, kicking, crushing, in a blood thirsty murdering frenzy, almost as though it were a compulsion to do so.

Both are guilty as sin. Why they kidnapped VS, we may never know the answer to this, but both knew exactly what was going to occur long before they arrived in Guelph.

They had a pact and thought they would never be caught, but thank God for the camera at Oliver Stephens School, as I think this deadly duo, had they not have been caught, would have committed the same crime over and over.

This is MOO ONLY.

As i previously posted, I would not trust the word of TLM on anything.

That would include her killing VS.

I believe she did kill VS because of testimony and fact.

Prior to pleading guilty, TLM had access to the disclosure from the Crown, but the disclosure wasn't nearly as complete as it is 3 years later.

She basically plead guilty on her confession, the video, and the strength of the Crown case against her. At that time, her own lawyer questioned if she should plead not guilty.

During the course of those 3 years, LE and the Crown have put together a lot of evidence, none of which TLM has had the opportunity to know about.

If LE had found the hammer.............she would not know about it.

The pathologist testified that the "claw" end of the hammer was used, as well as the blunt front end. I don't recall him saying both sides of the hammer were used, but I know he said both "ends" of the hammer were used.

I believe he said there were at least 3 blows from the claw end of the hammer which left discernable marks.

Virtually every man I know...........would never use the claw end of the hammer to strike something. MR had worked in construction and had several hammers around his home. He knew the proper way to use a hammer.

TLM may not have known if the hammer was found, but she would have known that her fingerprints were on it. She bought the hammer......and in my opinion based on how it was used...........she used the hammer.

I believe she confessed to the murder because she thought it was going to come out in evidence..........and she thought by confessing she could avoid appearing at the trial. If I recall correctly, she asked LE if she had to appear, now that she had confessed.

Lots of women may know how to use a hammer also, and with that knowledge, they would not have used the claw end to hit something.

But in my opinion, TLM was not one of those women.

The claw end is specifically designed to pull out nails or pull boards away from studding. It is rounded and of thinner gauge steel than the solid end. A hammer is specifically weighted to swing the heavy end forward. Swinging the hammer with the claw end would have resulted in it bouncing off the skull and possibly causing injury to the person swinging it.

I don't rely at all on TLM's word for her killing VS.

JMO..........

JayFriend said:

He does not have to prove MTR innocent because by our legal system he's already presumed innocent. He just has to create enough spin and confusion in the minds of the jury to raise reasonable doubt as to MTR's guilt. Like it or not, that's the system we're stuck with. The Crown has to work very hard to produce a guilty verdict.

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I doubt spin and confusion works well on jurors.

A defense lawyer does not want to alienate the jury. He wants to provide them with honest testimony and facts..........that may shed a different light on the crime.

He could suggest an alternative theory, but without credence based on evidence, it will be dispensed with quickly by the jury.

The jurors weren't picked because of low intelligence levels or maleability.

They were agreed upon by both sides as a suitable panel of "peers" to listen to the facts.

They are the "triers of fact" and diligently perform their services.

There will always be people who will disagee with the jury verdict, regardless of what the verdict is.

Personally, I trust the 12 individuals, who take their duty seriously, to "unanimously" decide on a verdict.

JMO............

Wondergirl said:

Horrified as in texting multiple women the night of his clean-up?

Horrified as in happily having sex the next day after his clean-up?

Horrified as in engaging on POF and hooking up with Meloche, while planning the twins birthday party with the woman he was pimping?

Horrified as in changing his status on his social media accounts, to reflect that he was concerned about Tori being missing?

Horrifed as in texting people directly associated with Tori's mother, to engage in conversations about the the child whose remains he had helped clean up?

Horrified as in attempting to ditch his Blackberry, Car, and God-only-knows what other evidence, directly linking him to the crime?

Horrified as in completely lying to Detectives when questioned about "that girl"?

Which horrifed might you be referring to? Just curious.

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Perhaps "horrified" as in being so unhinged by what he saw, that he was stunned.........and then TLM threatened to accuse him of committing the crime caused him to panic? After failing to notify the police right away, perhaps he was terrified that he was in more trouble than he could ever had imagined would happen to him......and thus his total denial of any involvement? His behavior after the crime was bizarre........but is that an indication of indifference or becoming dysfunctional?

I would think different people would react in different ways.

I am not sure there is a "normal" way to act in such a traumatic event.

Most people may call LE immediately. Some may wait and find a way to notify LE later. Others may want to talk to a lawyer to be accompanied to the police station for their own concerns. Others yet.........may go directly into denial and try to hide their involvement.

It isn't unknown for people to witness terrible crimes and fail to come forward.

We know that people react differently to the trauma of war, and what that can cause......given recent news stories from Afghanistan.

Perhaps we will learn more from the defense presentation, about MR's state of mind at the crime scene and thereafter.

JMO...........

Ardy said:

As i previously posted, I would not trust the word of TLM on anything.

That would include her killing VS.

I believe she did kill VS because of testimony and fact.

Prior to pleading guilty, TLM had access to the disclosure from the Crown, but the disclosure wasn't nearly as complete as it is 3 years later.

She basically plead guilty on her confession, the video, and the strength of the Crown case against her. At that time, her own lawyer questioned if she should plead not guilty.

During the course of those 3 years, LE and the Crown have put together a lot of evidence, none of which TLM has had the opportunity to know about.

If LE had found the hammer.............she would not know about it.

The pathologist testified that the "claw" end of the hammer was used, as well as the blunt front end. I don't recall him saying both sides of the hammer were used, but I know he said both "ends" of the hammer were used.

I believe he said there were at least 3 blows from the claw end of the hammer which left discernable marks.

Virtually every man I know...........would never use the claw end of the hammer to strike something. MR had worked in construction and had several hammers around his home. He knew the proper way to use a hammer.

TLM may not have known if the hammer was found, but she would have known that her fingerprints were on it. She bought the hammer......and in my opinion based on how it was used...........she used the hammer.

I believe she confessed to the murder because she thought it was going to come out in evidence..........and she thought by confessing she could avoid appearing at the trial. If I recall correctly, she asked LE if she had to appear, now that she had confessed.

Lots of women may know how to use a hammer also, and with that knowledge, they would not have used the claw end to hit something.

But in my opinion, TLM was not one of those women.

The claw end is specifically designed to pull out nails or pull boards away from studding. It is rounded and of thinner gauge steel than the solid end. A hammer is specifically weighted to swing the heavy end forward. Swinging the hammer with the claw end would have resulted in it bouncing off the skull and possibly causing injury to the person swinging it.

I don't rely at all on TLM's word for her killing VS.

JMO..........

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The claw end CAN inflict damage if held at the right angle. I have used the claw end to break something in the past, although that something was obviously not a skull because I am not psychotic, but it did the job better than the blunt end, as when I hit the wood I was trying to break, the claw part went right in to it.
Needless to say, after hearing that the claw end was used, I nearly vomited because of the graphic image of that claw doing to poor Tori's head what the claw end of a hammer did to that piece of wood.

For somebody to use the claw end of a hammer during a murder, they must be very, very determined to inflict as much damage as possible, as it is a bit of a difficult angle to hold while striking something... could have been either one of them, JMO.

That said, I do think it was TLM. MR seems to be able to hold his composure much better than her. She seems to 'lose it' really easily.


JMO

snoofer said:

very good points; you might be right. He might think he is slick enough to pull it off; try spouting details like TLM so it becomes a he said she said. Do you think that he will try and "enact" a replica of TLM's testimony?????So then who do you believe??? Except, it is 3 years later. JMO

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Defense will put him on the stand so he can cry "I didn't do it", thinking the jurors will feel sorry for him and find him not guilty. pfft laughing out really loud.

Nope I give a huge amount of credit to these jurors. They will go with the overwhelming evidence against MR and find him guilty of abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder. MOO and here is why I believe Tori was abducted for MR by TLM:

1) Tori found naked from the waist down,

2) Tori's blood and male sperm found together on the moulding of MR's car,

3) MR's lack of respect for women by playing so many women at the same time, IMO MR is sexually confused, over sexed, sexual deviant, something is just not normal about his sexual behaviour,

4) TLM's testimony and evidence claiming MR initiated the abduction,
a- "You know I'm gonna F&*^ her",
b- We can't keep her and we can't take her back",
c- "You would do anything for a little bit of love",
d- "it would be easy, just talk to her about candy or dogs",
e- he parked in front of single mother's house and told TLM how easy it would be to go in and tie people up.
f- MR masturbating as he drove up the laneway,
g- within a mere few hours of MR picking up TLM the "pretty little number, he was having sex with her in his car,
h- MR wouldn't have asked TLM to cut pieces out of the back seat to get rid of evidence of blood and sperm if it wasn't there,
i- how would TLM know MR had a blue knife under the seat, the exact same knife found in the toolbox in his mother's house,
j- MR cleaning up while still naked from the waist down,
k- MR parking in the nursing home parking lot (somewhat secluded)
l- MR using bottled water to wash his appendage,
m) MR knew Tori was abducted, otherwise why would he yell at TLM and Tori for her to stay down out of sight.

5) MR knew of the area and more than likely that secluded spot,

6) the reason for going to that secluded spot was not so TLM could "talk" to Tori (this talk could have happened pretty much anywhere), MR wanted a secluded spot out of sight out of earshot,

7) MR dating women with children,

8) MR got rid of the back seat with damaging evidence,

9) having sex with other women within a short amount of time after meeting them,

10) women are typically not sexual deviants, and there has been no proof of a drug debt and TLM stated Tori was a random child,

11) MR failed to admit or claimed not to know anything about what happened to Tori, conveniently didn't even remember her name; called her that little girl,

12) MR did not use his cell phone for approximately 1 1/2 to 2 hours as he was busy sexually assaulting Tori. MR would not disappear for that amount of time it TLM just wanted to have a chat with Tori, nor would it take that long to hid her body. If he came back and was horrified by what he found, MR would want to get the heck out of there ASAP,

13) TLM was able to take in her surroundings because she had ample time to do so while MR was sexually assaulting Tori in his car,

14) TLM stating Tori peed blood after the first attack,

15) Tori being thrown to the ground by MR more than likely because she wouldn't cooperate with him and he was sexually frustrated. Tori just lied there moaning because MR, IMHO physically assaulted her, she was somewhat incoherent from the assault (punched in the face would explain the multiple facial fractures. Also the hammer blows). MR knew they were going to kill Tori anyhow so he started the process in order to put the bag over her head. TLM did not see most of the sexual assault and none of the physical assault.

These are only why I believe it was sexual assault. There are many more reasons and evidence which I could list to show his involvement for the abduction and murder. I won't though at this time as I do not believe MR will get off of the first degree murder and abduction charges. The fact that Derstine has already admitted to MR being there and helping to clean up is enough to get him the sentence of first degree whether some feel it's unfair or not. Personally I do not and I am not buying the defense theory whatever it may be. No excuse is good enough for me. MOO. No one in there right mind takes a strange child in their car two hours away from her home and family for no good reason without parental consent and especially to purchase drugs. That is abduction. And MR walking away so TLM could have a little chat with Tori, one doesn't need to find a secluded laneway and go on a two hour walk AND without his cell phone. The defenses theory sucks big time IMHO. If this case wasn't so sad, the defenses theory is going to be utterly ridiculous and probably laughable.

If Tori wasn't adbucted, why didn't MR suggest TLM take her into HD with her or MR take her into Timmies to pick a treat or use the washroom? Why didn't they all go in together into HD and Timmies if MR didn't know Tori was abducted? MR could have taken TLM and Tori into BA's house seeing he wasn't in a hurry, spending about ten minutes with BA? MR knew Tori was abducted and for his purpose just as TLM claims.


There is no getting away from the sexual assault period bottom line. Even without TLM's testimony, there is too much overwhelming evidence that Tori was abducted for MR to sexual assault her. MR is the sick sexual deviant who masterminded the whole thing and had a sick minded, gullible young woman, with nothing to lose to help him. Evil met more evil that night in the pizza shop IMHO. They did the crime, they will do the time. One is just as guilty as the other. JMHO and HTH.