Who hurt this case the most?

SunnieRN said:

JR is not the innocent victim, that covered for a deranged wife, IMHO.

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ITA.
and you know what I've noticed.....he loves to be on TV and pretend to be a victim so much more than Patsy....just pay attention,P is bored,she's just there because she needs to be there,he on the other hand LOVES it.
let's say PR did it and he covered for her.....does it explain his behaviour?would you risk and expose your crazy wife like that?NO IMO.he enjoys the show,she doesn't.who's the happy happy joy joy one all the time

SunnieRN said:

I honestly believe that John was down therein the wee hours of the morning, before BPD was called, he was down there withFW at around 1 pm, and that he was also there at 10 am. Who I do not think was there when the BPD searched the basement was JonBenet.

I can't get over the time lapse, in which a father, whose daughter had been 'kidnapped', would not have been glued to the phone, waiting for the kidnappers to call. That he would not have been filled with anguish,when they didn't call. Ican't believe he would so disregard the instructions in the ransom note, had he BELIEVED it were true.

He had to have done something when he disappeared. It also corresponds to the time he told JAR and SL that he found JonBenet. JR is not the innocent victim, that covered for a deranged wife, IMHO.

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SunnieRN,

I honestly believe that John was down therein the wee hours of the morning, before BPD was called, he was down there withFW at around 1 pm, and that he was also there at 10 am. Who I do not think was there when the BPD searched the basement was JonBenet.

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Yes I reckon something took place, exactly what, I am unsure about. He may have relocated JonBenet, thus explaining the blanket, or simply added those stupid restraints and the duct-tape to JonBenet?

With the RN deadline having passed, John absenting himself, then later on he finds JonBenet, all in a nice linear chronological sequence, which culminates in him instructing his pilot to prepare a flight for Atlanta, coincidence?

Seems to me John had expected the police to be thin on the ground post-deadline, when this did not happen, he must have re-calibrated Plan A. I am convinced if they had wanted JonBenet discovered they would left her somewhere more easier to find, not dumped in a locked, dark cellar?

The more I think about it, the more I reckon we are missing out on some redacted evidence. Consider, lying on the wine-cellar floor was a blood-stained pink barbie nightgown and a pink barbie doll along with JonBenet wrapped in a white blanket. Yet Fleet White missed all of this when he looked earlier that morning. I used to accept explanations of dimness, difficulty to view in the dark etc, but that was when I was simply focussed upon JonBenet wrapped in a blanket. So there was a contrast of colors and object sizes, enough I reckon to catch the attention of an observant person. And Fleet White was attentive he was looking for a missing child.

An alternative explanation for JonBenet and those objects found along with her body in the wine-cellar is that John Ramsey moved them there during his time-out period?

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We don't know for a fact that FW missed the Barbie nightie, doll, etc. The truth is that we do not know exactly what FW told LE about what he saw in the wineceller- the condition of the body (what part of her was covered by the blanket, etc). We don't know exactly what he saw JR do (or not do) when he followed JR into the wineceller. It is doubtful that JR tried to untie her wrists, as he claims, yet FW has not said publicly whether JR did or did not do this.
We don't know if he saw or remembered seeing the pink nightie or the box containing the doll. It isn't clear whether JR actually turned on the lights IN the wineceller (as we know, FW was unable to find the light switch for the room when he went there alone early that morning).
If the room was dim with only the light from the area outside the WC, he may not have noticed the pink nightie or doll. The doll, seen, but not clearly, in some crime scene photos, was in a cellophane box, which would have made it less likely to be noticed as a doll, especially when the only thing you are focused on is a dead little girl with a rope around her neck lying in the middle of the room. And it was not on top of the blanket, but a little bit away from the blanket that was left behind in the basement.
And with the adrenalin pumping as FW entered the room where he saw the dead body of a little girl he knew well, it would be understandable if he did not notice these things.

If LE would have approached it right, the rest of it wouldn't have happened.

DeeDee249 said:

We don't know for a fact that FW missed the Barbie nightie, doll, etc. The truth is that we do not know exactly what FW told LE about what he saw in the wineceller- the condition of the body (what part of her was covered by the blanket, etc). We don't know exactly what he saw JR do (or not do) when he followed JR into the wineceller. It is doubtful that JR tried to untie her wrists, as he claims, yet FW has not said publicly whether JR did or did not do this.
We don't know if he saw or remembered seeing the pink nightie or the box containing the doll. It isn't clear whether JR actually turned on the lights IN the wineceller (as we know, FW was unable to find the light switch for the room when he went there alone early that morning).
If the room was dim with only the light from the area outside the WC, he may not have noticed the pink nightie or doll. The doll, seen, but not clearly, in some crime scene photos, was in a cellophane box, which would have made it less likely to be noticed as a doll, especially when the only thing you are focused on is a dead little girl with a rope around her neck lying in the middle of the room. And it was not on top of the blanket, but a little bit away from the blanket that was left behind in the basement.
And with the adrenalin pumping as FW entered the room where he saw the dead body of a little girl he knew well, it would be understandable if he did not notice these things.

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DeeDee249,

We don't know for a fact that FW missed the Barbie nightie, doll, etc.

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Really, how so?

Other than John Ramsey no other person in this case is better qualified to offer an account of how the wine-cellar crime-scene looked.

Usually inconsistencies matter, particularly in the area of crime. Witness Columbo with his one more question sir and Sherlock Holmes with the case of The Dog That Did Not Bark.

In the JonBenet case we have Fleet White reporting the wine-cellar free of JonBenet's body in the morning and John Ramsey heading straight there at 1 AM to find JonBenet with various lying objects around her.

As per Occam the simplest explanation is that Fleet White missed JonBenet due to the darkness in the wine-cellar.

Here is an observation: If you look into a room, locked from the outside, and it is dark, do you expect to find a live six year old girl, if so why?

In terms of probability, on his first visit, I reckon it was more likely that Fleet White would have seen JonBenet lying in the wine-cellar given the artifacts gathered around her. Obviously not clearly, but given he had gone to the bother of unlatching the door, a cursory glance appears at odds with his intent?

Maybe the barbie doll and wrapping paper etc was lying on the floor on Fleet White's first visit, and he did see that, but not JonBenet? This would be powerful testimony.

And with the adrenalin pumping as FW entered the room where he saw the dead body of a little girl he knew well, it would be understandable if he did not notice these things.

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Quite so. So you will excuse Fleet White for returning immediately to the wine-cellar, after JonBenet's body had been taken upstairs, where unlike us, he had plenty time to observe all the things he may have missed on a previous visit?

This may be the pivotal point, Fleet White might actually know that the wine-cellar was differently arranged from his earlier visit, discounting JonBenet's body.

Hence his determination to take another look, if his andrenalin was such an impediment why bother with another look simply to peer at duct-tape?


Patently Fleet White's silence on what he saw implies he has important testimony to offer, And although we cannot know what he saw we can speculate.

Although Fleet White's observations are at odds with my preferred RDI, it may actually be the case, I am wrong and Fleet White is right. Implying John moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar?


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Whatever FW may or may not have noticed in the wineceller, whether at the time of the discovery of the body or after, is not known because he has never said publicly what he saw.
So my comment that we do not know for a FACT whether he missed the Barbie doll and nightie is correct. He may have seen them, he may not have seen them. Simply because they were there to be seen does not guarantee that they WERE seen, given the circumstances.
His statements to LE will be among the most interesting and telling of all the interviews. I hope one day they will be available for all to read.

I read something about a letter FW wrote under a pseudonym, Stephen Mason.
I wondered if this were true and if so, whether he intended it to be a message about being Masonic Brothers. Was JR a fellow Mason?

As an aside, I found it coincidental the number of people in the case already with last name, Mason.

I think JR was most instrumental to the case not being solved.

DeeDee249 said:

Whatever FW may or may not have noticed in the wineceller, whether at the time of the discovery of the body or after, is not known because he has never said publicly what he saw.
So my comment that we do not know for a FACT whether he missed the Barbie doll and nightie is correct.H e may have seen them, he may not have seen them. Simply because they were there to be seen does not guarantee that they WERE seen, given the circumstances.
His statements to LE will be among the most interesting and telling of all the interviews. I hope one day they will be available for all to read.

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DeeDee249,

Simply because they were there to be seen does not guarantee that they WERE seen, given the circumstances.

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Sure, but he unlike you or I, he is supremely qualified to offer his observations.

Your initial assumption appears to be he did not see whatever was available to be seen, which given the circumstances, I consider naive.

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UKGuy said:

DeeDee249,

Really, how so?

Other than John Ramsey no other person in this case is better qualified to offer an account of how the wine-cellar crime-scene looked.

Usually inconsistencies matter, particularly in the area of crime. Witness Columbo with his one more question sir and Sherlock Holmes with the case of The Dog That Did Not Bark.

In the JonBenet case we have Fleet White reporting the wine-cellar free of JonBenet's body in the morning and John Ramsey heading straight there at 1 AM to find JonBenet with various lying objects around her.

As per Occam the simplest explanation is that Fleet White missed JonBenet due to the darkness in the wine-cellar.

Here is an observation: If you look into a room, locked from the outside, and it is dark, do you expect to find a live six year old girl, if so why?

In terms of probability, on his first visit, I reckon it was more likely that Fleet White would have seen JonBenet lying in the wine-cellar given the artifacts gathered around her. Obviously not clearly, but given he had gone to the bother of unlatching the door, a cursory glance appears at odds with his intent?

Maybe the barbie doll and wrapping paper etc was lying on the floor on Fleet White's first visit, and he did see that, but not JonBenet? This would be powerful testimony.


Quite so. So you will excuse Fleet White for returning immediately to the wine-cellar, after JonBenet's body had been taken upstairs, where unlike us, he had plenty time to observe all the things he may have missed on a previous visit?

This may be the pivotal point, Fleet White might actually know that the wine-cellar was differently arranged from his earlier visit, discounting JonBenet's body.

Hence his determination to take another look, if his andrenalin was such an impediment why bother with another look simply to peer at duct-tape?


Patently Fleet White's silence on what he saw implies he has important testimony to offer, And although we cannot know what he saw we can speculate.

Although Fleet White's observations are at odds with my preferred RDI, it may actually be the case, I am wrong and Fleet White is right. Implying John moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar?


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You say FW reported it "free of JPR body" - did he actually say he looked in there and she wasnt in there ? or as I understand it, looked in there but didnt see her as he didnt go into the room? He may well have seen other objects on the first look but didnt register them as he was looking for a girl ,

You might well be looking in there for a live girl if you thought she might be hiding in there, unlikely I know because there was no light in there , or you might be hoping she was still alive if left in there tied up .

When you say moved her into there , when did John get the chance and where would he possibly have been able to move her from with all those people in the house??
He didnt know he would have a chance to "move her" did he? why put those objects in with her? if he'd moved her? it makes no sense, also of course he had no way of knowing he would be the one to find her,

I dont think he does have any other important testomny we dont know about , it would have been leaked by now imo

UKGuy said:

DeeDee249,

Sure, but he unlike you or I, he is supremely qualified to offer his observations.

Your initial assumption appears to be he did not see whatever was available to be seen, which given the circumstances, I consider naive.

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I never said he did not see it. I assumed no such thing. I said we do not know if he did or did not see the doll or nightie because he has never said publicly what he saw or observed in the wineceller.

DeeDee249 said:

I never said he did not see it. I assumed no such thing. I said we do not know if he did or did not see the doll or nightie because he has never said publicly what he saw or observed in the wineceller.

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DeeDee249

We don't know for a fact that FW missed the Barbie nightie, doll, etc.

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Precisely because of his silence he obviously knows something we do not. Regardless of whether it related to any particular object.


I take the view something had changed in the wine-cellar between his first visit and his second visit, prompting him to make a third visit!


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FairM said:

You say FW reported it "free of JPR body" - did he actually say he looked in there and she wasnt in there ? or as I understand it, looked in there but didnt see her as he didnt go into the room? He may well have seen other objects on the first look but didnt register them as he was looking for a girl ,

You might well be looking in there for a live girl if you thought she might be hiding in there, unlikely I know because there was no light in there , or you might be hoping she was still alive if left in there tied up .

When you say moved her into there , when did John get the chance and where would he possibly have been able to move her from with all those people in the house??
He didnt know he would have a chance to "move her" did he? why put those objects in with her? if he'd moved her? it makes no sense, also of course he had no way of knowing he would be the one to find her,

I dont think he does have any other important testomny we dont know about , it would have been leaked by now imo

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FairM,
Some of my questions are intended to be rhetorical.

When you say moved her into there , when did John get the chance and where would he possibly have been able to move her from with all those people in the house??

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On another thread so said you had done all the research and read all the books? Duh!

JR went missing for about an hour that morning. His movements are unaccounted for.

He didnt know he would have a chance to "move her" did he? why put those objects in with her? if he'd moved her? it makes no sense, also of course he had no way of knowing he would be the one to find her,

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You seem to be making stuff up. If John moves JonBenet into the wine-cellar, of course he knows where to find her, as he did!

And the objects, well maybe thats what Fleet White knows were not present when he looked in there earlier in the day, never mind JonBenet wrapped in a white blanket.


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FairM said:

You say FW reported it "free of JPR body" - did he actually say he looked in there and she wasnt in there ? or as I understand it, looked in there but didnt see her as he didnt go into the room? He may well have seen other objects on the first look but didnt register them as he was looking for a girl ,

You might well be looking in there for a live girl if you thought she might be hiding in there, unlikely I know because there was no light in there , or you might be hoping she was still alive if left in there tied up .

When you say moved her into there , when did John get the chance and where would he possibly have been able to move her from with all those people in the house??
He didnt know he would have a chance to "move her" did he? why put those objects in with her? if he'd moved her? it makes no sense, also of course he had no way of knowing he would be the one to find her,

I dont think he does have any other important testomny we dont know about , it would have been leaked by now imo

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I do not believe FW actually walked into the wineceller early that morning (when he was alone). I believe he said that he LOOKED into the dark room, not being able to find the light switch to the WC (which was in an odd place outside the room itself). The way I have seen it, he said he didn't see her in there. This is different than saying that she was not in there. In order to say that, without a doubt, she was not in there, I think you'd have to have actually walked around in there and looked, and/or turned the light on and looked, neither of these was done by FW.
LE did tests at a later time to see whether the light from the area outside the WC enough to be able to see into the dark WC. I believe the conclusion was that there was enough light shining in from the doorway to be able to see JB's body where it was found.
There is still the possibility that she was further inside the room, and when JR disappeared during the 2 hours he was unaccounted for, he may have pulled her closer to the doorway so she would be easily seen. At that point, JR did not know that FW had been down there earlier and looked in the WC without seeing her. He only knew at that time that Officer French had failed to open the door and find her. After she was found, it was FW who admitted that he had looked into the WC earlier that morning and did not see her. He was surprised that JR had been able to see her BEFORE JR turned on the light. When FW made that statement (which I believe he made to LE at the R home that day) JR said that it was the first time he was aware that FW had been to the basement before accompanying him at Det. Arndt's suggestion to "have another look around".
Time was running out if she was going to be found in any condition to be seen by her family at her funeral.
As far as where she may have been moved FROM (if at all)- remember that both rigor mortis and livor mortis begin within 15-20 minutes of death, with rigor taking longer (about 12 hours) to fully form. Had she been somewhere else, she'd have had to be in the exact same position as she was found. Had she been stuffed into the suitcase (as some have suggested) or in a fridge, etc.. there might have been two livor patterns and the body would have been "set" by rigor into a different position than she was found.
Personally, I believe she was placed in the WC immediately after death. If she was moved at all, she was moved within the WC itself, perhaps closer to the door. BOTH her rigor and livor patterns suggest she was placed on her back, legs flat out, arms possibly across her abdomen, NOT over he head as has been said). The process of rigor will pull the arms into the "boxer's position" - up in front of the body, bent at the elbow. This happens as the muscles ratchet tighter and tighter as lactic acid builds up in the muscles. Rigor allows the muscles only to contract, not relax, so the arms can be pulled up into that position as rigor progresses.
In the crime photo showing JB on the living room rug, you can easily see her arms pulled up into that position- her hands are covered with the brown paper bags that were put on in standard procedure for transport to the morgue.

We also don't know when or how the boxed doll or the nightie was put in there. The nightie may have gotten there any of several ways: 1- accidentally attached to the white blanket by static cling as it was pulled from the basement dryer, 2-is she had been wearing it while alive and it got bloodstained in the assault, then it was removed and she was redressed in the longjohns and white shirt (I do not believe this happened) or 3- it was placed there with an already-dead JB because it was her favorite. Doesn't explain the bloodstains, though.
The boxed doll was a 1996 Holiday Barbie. Maybe it was JB's gift that day, or maybe it had been bought for another child (Jenny- along with the Bloomies panties originally bought for her as well). To me, this makes sense, because it may have been wrapped up with the panties and when that present was unwrapped to find the panties, the doll was just left there along with the rest of the unwrapped present.
So the circumstances of exactly how and why the doll and pink nightie came to be in the room with JB are by no means clear.
We simply do not know for certain how and why they were there. We do know that when shown the crime scene photo of the pink nightie on the white blanet by LE, JR made the comment "that wasn't supposed to be there". Odd comment, yes? NONE of it was "supposed to be there"- especially a dead child in the room.

DeeDee249 said:

I do not believe FW actually walked into the wineceller early that morning (when he was alone). I believe he said that he LOOKED into the dark room, not being able to find the light switch to the WC (which was in an odd place outside the room itself). The way I have seen it, he said he didn't see her in there. This is different than saying that she was not in there. In order to say that, without a doubt, she was not in there, I think you'd have to have actually walked around in there and looked, and/or turned the light on and looked, neither of these was done by FW.
LE did tests at a later time to see wether the light from the area outside the WC enough to be able to see into the dark WC. I believe the conclusion was that there was enough light shining in from the doorway to be able to see JB's body where it was found.
There is still the possibility that she was further inside the room, and when JR disappeared during the 2 hours he was unaccounted for, he may have pulled her closer to the doorway so she would be easily seen. At that point, JR did not know that FW had been down there earlier and looked in the WC without seeing her. He only knew at that time that Officer French had failed to open the door and find her. After she was found, it was FW who admitted that he had looked into the WC earlier that morning and did not see her. He was surprised that JR had been able to see her BEFORE JR turned on the light. When FW made that statement (which I believe he made to LE at the R home that day) JR said that it was the first time he was aware that FW had been to the basement before accompanying him at Det. Arndt's suggestion to "have another look around".
Time was running out if she was going to be found in any condition to be seen by her family at her funeral.
As far as where she may have been moved FROM (if at all)- remember that both rigor mortis and livor mortis begin within 15-20 minutes of death, with rigor taking longer (about 12 hours) to fully form. Had she been somewhere else, she'd have had to be in the exact same position as she was found. Had she been stuffed into the suitcase (as some have suggested) or in a fridge, etc.. there might have been two livor patterns and the body would have been "set" by rigor into a different position than she was found.
Personally, I believe she was placed in the WC immediately after death. If she was moved at all, she was moved within the WC itself, perhaps closer to the door. BOTH her rigor and livor patterns suggest she was placed on her back, legs flat out, arms possibly across her abdomen, NOT over he head as has been said). The process of rigor will pull the arms into the "boxer's position" - up in front of the body, bent at the elbow. This happens as the muscles ratchet tighter and tighter as lactic acid builds up in the muscles. Rigor allows the muscles only to contract, not relax, so the arms can be pulled up into that position as rigor progresses.
In the crime photo showing JB on the living room rug, you can easily see her arms pulled up into that position- her hands are covered with the brown paper bags that were put on in standard procedure for transport to the morgue.

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DeeDee249,

JR said that it was the first time he was aware that FW had been to the basement before accompanying him at Det. Arndt's suggestion to "have another look around".

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Which reinforces the possibility that JR moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar, since he had already made assumptions about what Fleet White knew prior to finding JonBenet?

Otherwise why is Fleet White maintaining his silence, if there is nothing of substance to talk about?


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UKGuy said:

DeeDee249,

Which reinforces the possibility that JR moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar, since he had already made assumptions about what Fleet White knew prior to finding JonBenet?

Otherwise why is Fleet White maintaining his silence, if there is nothing of substance to talk about?


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I feel IF JB was moved at all, she was moved WITHIN the wineceller. The room is kind of L-shaped. If you stood at the doorway, you'd have to step in and look to the left to see all the way into the room. JB could have been deeper inside, and JR may have moved her closer to the doorway.
FW may be maintaining his silence because he feels threatened with having the finger pointed at HIMSELF again. With the the unscrupulous defense lawyers, they'd find some way to pin this on him, even of they couldn't make it stick. His life would be ruined even more than it was.

DeeDee249 said:

I feel IF JB was moved at all, she was moved WITHIN the wineceller. The room is kind of L-shaped. If you stood at the doorway, you'd have to step in and look to the left to see all the way into the room. JB could have been deeper inside, and JR may have moved her closer to the doorway.
FW may be maintaining his silence because he feels threatened with having the finger pointed at HIMSELF again. With the the unscrupulous defense lawyers, they'd find some way to pin this on him, even of they couldn't make it stick. His life would be ruined even more than it was.

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DeeDee249,
Your theory is more likely than mine. But with the passage of time I doubt Fleet White feels threatened by JR.

I wish I could speak with Fleet White and just ask him what did you see?

Currently his silence is either for reputational or evidential reasons?


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UKGuy said:

DeeDee249,
Your theory is more likely than mine. But with the passage of time I doubt Fleet White feels threatened by JR.

I wish I could speak with Fleet White and just ask him what did you see?

Currently his silence is either for reputational or evidential reasons?


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I am sure we'd all like to speak with FW. Possibly, like Coroner Mayer, he is keeping silent because he is waiting to be put on the witness stand.
But I think there is a more practical reason behind his silence- the threat of a lawsuit.

According to ST's book FW went down to the basement between 6.30 (when he arrived) and 6.45.
Now this is something I would like to ask him.why?

UKGuy said:

I wish I could speak with Fleet White and just ask him what did you see?




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IIRC according to the bonita papers,he told LE a different version than JR re how JB's position down in the basement (when they found her) and thats when LE started to have suspicions re JR's statement

madeleine said:

According to ST's book FW went down to the basement between 6.30 (when he arrived) and 6.45.
Now this is something I would like to ask him.why?

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Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't FW's daughter once "missing" and he found her hiding in the basement? That's why I thought he checked out the R's basement first.