The Rest of the Story...

I haven't followed this case as closely as I should and I have to admit up front that the FLDS give me the heebie-jeebies because of the way their interpretation of religion seems to oppress and disadvantage children & women.

Warren Jeffs is a sex offender plain and simple, he's also a dangerous manipulative man who doesn't seem to care what he does to the women and children suppossedly in his spiritual care. The bishops and the parents who are members of Jeffs cult do follow him and seem intent on sweeping his abuse under the carpet.

Having said that the circumstances leading up to the raid are of concern because as it seems now the calls were a hoax. Because of that it appears the authorities were looking for any reason to raid the compound and when the chance came they jumped at it prematurely & now the mess that's left will cloud any investigation that follows.

I'm sure CPS had the best of intentions but in their eagerness they seem to have jumped the gun and over stepped their boundaries or as the court ruling said 'abused their discretion'.

If the written reports of the mental health workers drafted in to help are accurate then yes, there's more of a problem here than just the FLDS.

This is defintely an interesting case isnt it Blaize? I know it has had my heart from the beginning. I have gathered from other posts that you have made in other threads that you are a great advocate for women and children. So am I. I think we all want the same thing for these children and that is the very best.
 
And back in danger, I fear...:(
I agree... foster care has a terrible track record, even though some foster parents are wonderful. I hope they do not end up in foster care.
 
From Wendy McElroy, raging feminist, which I am not :crazy: but here's her point of view

http://www.wendymcelroy.com/news.php?extend.1577

I don't like the FLDS religious sect. I think the ideology that they inculcate into children is worse than drek -- it is dangerous to their intellectual and emotional well-being. But how is this different from families in which the parents are fundamentalist Christian or raving Marxists or radically Muslim? Are we going to have a State-imposed purity test for ideology before allowing parents to raise their children? Unless and until there is clear evidence of physical abuse, no third party has any business using force to step between a parent and a child. PERIOD.

The FLDS is one of those litmus tests by which you can separate true libertarians (who believe that rights apply to ALL individuals) from those who believe rights apply only to the nice people of the world. You know, OUR sort. Well...the FLDS is not my sort. It is not in the next county from being my sort. But each individual member of the FLDS has the same right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. etc. as I do.
 
From Wendy McElroy, raging feminest, which I am not :crazy: but here's her point of view

http://www.wendymcelroy.com/news.php?extend.1577

I don't like the FLDS religious sect. I think the ideology that they inculcate into children is worse than drek -- it is dangerous to their intellectual and emotional well-being. But how is this different from families in which the parents are fundamentalist Christian or raving Marxists or radically Muslim? Are we going to have a State-imposed purity test for ideology before allowing parents to raise their children? Unless and until there is clear evidence of physical abuse, no third party has any business using force to step between a parent and a child. PERIOD.

The FLDS is one of those litmus tests by which you can separate true libertarians (who believe that rights apply to ALL individuals) from those who believe rights apply only to the nice people of the world. You know, OUR sort. Well...the FLDS is not my sort. It is not in the next county from being my sort. But each individual member of the FLDS has the same right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. etc. as I do.

But the Supreme Court has already ruled that a religion cannot trump the laws of the land. You cannot commit murder in the name of religion and be exempt from prosecution. Neither can you commit child abuse in the name of religion and be exempt from prosecution. Those laws take precidence over religious "freedom." And when the rights of a child are pited against the rights of an adult, the child should be given preference. A bunch of horney old men cannot rape a child and call it "religious teaching."
 
I agree... foster care has a terrible track record, even though some foster parents are wonderful. I hope they do not end up in foster care.
I hope they do. At least the ones in danger. But I also hope it is in a loving foster care environment and not a "Mrs. Hannigan" type.
 
Well, Glow, we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

I find it impossible to believe that they are not brainwashed when a young mother stands there WITH her husband and tells the media that she believes Warren Jeffs is "perfect in every way". That is not a free-thinker. But then, her information was always vetted by the men in that cult. :rolleyes:

As for Doran worrying about his job...I seriously doubt he's as worried as you seem to believe. The FLDS members still have to face possible criminal charges and voting him out won't automatically insure day-to-day acceptance by the rest of the county population. Playing dirty politics with votes will ultimately undermine any revenge they may desire today.
 
Assuming standard examinations for child abuse have been conducted, the FLDS children have been subject to genital exams and in some cases may have been subjected to manual penetration.


Many FLDS children have been placed in foster homes. Foster parents have been referred by DFPS to its Cultural Awareness Guide for Children from Eldorado. In this guide, the department makes the following unsubstantiated statement:

"Children [from the YFZ Ranch] are socialized to believe that sexual activity with adults is positive."

We have no idea how many damaging conversations are now being held between the children and foster parents regarding child/adult sexual activity.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/05/post_14.html
 
I hope they do. At least the ones in danger. But I also hope it is in a loving foster care environment and not a "Mrs. Hannigan" type.
The ones not in danger had no reason to be taken from their mothers.. If we were to yank "potentially in danger" children from families, we would be clearing out every inner city family in the country, and lots of upperclass ones as well. (see myspace youngsters). But I agree with you otherwise.

I know our hearts are in the right place here.
 
I know. I was suprised and heartened by that. I knew from the first days that there was no way that this was going to hold up, but my fear was that these children would be trapped in mid space for years while the courts wrangled. At least now the kids are out of the middle and the wrangling can proceed! :crazy:

I am amazed at the speed with which this happened! I too felt this was going to drag out forever and harm more children and families in the process.
 
I just want to know if everyone who believes the FLDS over the CPS, have you read anything by the former FLDS? I don't think you can form an educated opinion without reading/watching one or more of the following:

"Escape" by Carolyn Jessop
"Under the Banner of Heaven" by John Krakauer
"Banking on Heaven" by Laurie Allen (DVD)
"Stolen Innocence" by Elissa Wall
Flora Jessop Autobiography, http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/florajessopautobio.htm
Personal stories - Experiences from polygamy, http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories.htm

I think many of you are putting your own personal feelings as a mother onto these women. Unfortunately most of these FLDS women are brainwashed into believing their children belong to the cult and are not their own to raise. This results in distancing any love they may have had, and not having the normal bonding that we have as parents of our children.

I believe we all have the best interests of the children at heart, but some of you believe it is best for the children to continue to be raised in this cult, while others like me think it is best for the children to be deprogramed away from the influence of the cult.

I have read Under the Banner of Heaven (twice) and Jessop's autobiography as well as several of the personal stories at that last link. The FLDS do things that I don't consider right and, like most folks looking to protect their self interests, everything that comes out of their mouths is probably not the whole truth. That said, I absolutely believe that CPS behaved very very badly.

Should we hold members of an extremely powerful agency entrusted with caring for and protecting innocents to a higher standard of truth, compassion, care and kindness than members of a "fringe cult" group who have been unjustly ripped from their homes? Maybe!
 
There's no maybe about it SCM, we should absolutely hold Government agencies, and the institutions of State and Law to a very high standard.

After all part of the covenant we have between governments and people in the democratic countries of the west is that we accept the rule of law in return for just laws and fair & equitable treatment of everyone.


I have read Under the Banner of Heaven (twice) and Jessop's autobiography as well as several of the personal stories at that last link. The FLDS do things that I don't consider right and, like most folks looking to protect their self interests, everything that comes out of their mouths is probably not the whole truth. That said, I absolutely believe that CPS behaved very very badly.

Should we hold members of an extremely powerful agency entrusted with caring for and protecting innocents to a higher standard of truth, compassion, care and kindness than members of a "fringe cult" group who have been unjustly ripped from their homes? Maybe!
 
There's no maybe about it SCM, we should absolutely hold Government agencies, and the institutions of State and Law to a very high standard.

After all part of the covenant we have between governments and people in the democratic countries of the west is that we accept the rule of law in return for just laws and fair & equitable treatment of everyone.

I agree, blaize - so much! My maybe was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, but there's no icon!!:)
 
Who is Rozita Swinton?
Rozita was placed in Tennessee's foster care system at 14.
Rozita had reported that her father had sexually abused her and she remained afraid of him, the state said.
After turning 19, Swinton lived with a Tennessee woman who was caring for foster children. "One of the counselors working with [Rozita] knew me and called to ask if I would take her in," the woman wrote in her book, After Disclosure, under the pen name Kate Rosemary.
in her book, she wrote Rozita, who also rejected interview requests, was "tragically abused" and had been diagnosed with multiple personality disorder.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9439383
 
Offshoot polygamous Mormon sects are about as popular in West Texas as neo-Nazis are in Skokie. Texas law was changed in 2005, raising the marriage age to 16 from 14 explicitly to target polygamous sects. The police watched the sect’s compound, the Yearning for Zion Ranch, like hawks, but were stymied by a lack of evidence. What they needed was an outcry, a credible victim’s complaint.
In early April, they conveniently got one in the form of a phone call to a local abuse hot line...
In their first incursion, to search for “Sarah,” the S.W.A.T.-like team ransacked the place, scared the children and scooped up books, records, bibles and photographs. With the new evidence in hand, they got a second search warrant the next day that allowed them to take into custody all children on the ranch, of all ages and both genders, and to place them, at least temporarily, in foster care.
Nearly all of the mothers were separated from their children, the only exceptions being a handful of nursing mothers with infants under 12 months. Siblings were separated from each other and placed in different foster care locations hundreds of miles apart, making it impossible for many mothers regularly to see their children, a fact that was reported in the local press in Texas and Utah weeks before it made it into The New York Times.
The state painted all of the members of the community with the same broad brush. Individualized hearings, the state argued to the appellate court, would have taken “weeks or even months and would have been an extraordinary waste of judicial resources.”
In other words, why bother? They are all guilty.
In the intermediate appellate court, and in its appeal to the Texas Supreme Court, the state has baldly argued what appears to be the only evidence it really has against the mothers: their appalling religion.
Well, that is just not enough. In America, we punish conduct, not belief systems.
And by the way, the “Sarah” call was a hoax. She is apparently a troubled woman in Colorado Springs with a history of making such calls. Texas authorities don’t deny that, but they say it does not matter because, in effect, the ends justified the means.
Not always, and not this time.
Kathleen Peratis, a partner at the New York law firm Outten & Golden, is a board member emerita of Human Rights Watch.
http://www.forward.com/articles/13462/
 
Are any of you readers/posters here feminists? Is our duty to our gender to support only when we approve of the choice a woman is making, or is it our duty to support her right to chose?

This case in Texas seems to be causing a lot of angst for feminists. Some, like Gloria Allred, decry the FLDS as keeping women subject through the practice of polygamy. Others disagree

Interesting reading at this link

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9374627?IADID=Search-www.sltrib.com-www.sltrib.com

But while feminists will defend battered women every time, they have been strangely silent since Texas child welfare agents first yanked 460 children from their mothers.
I don't expect feminists to defend prostitution, *advertiser censored* or the latest round of YouTube junior high catfights. So I'm not really surprised advocates for women's rights are reluctant to defend polygamy - certainly not the patriarchs and their complicitous wives, who teach their daughters to sweetly obey.
In my mind, a feminist defends every other woman's right to choose, no matter how repugnant the choice - posing for Playboy, sleeping with New York's governor for money or joining the WWF. At the very least, I hoped feminists would defend the FLDS women's right to keep their children while the state investigated.

But polygamy leaves feminists conflicted.

Feminists, now is your chance to speak up.
 

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