Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #7

Hope4More said:

Way more subtle, and deeper than that overt flattery. I only have a cursory understanding of a few Mormon tenets, but my understanding is that bringing someone into the Church is considered both a big deal, both in this life and the next life, and a religious responsibility.

The Hughes have said that she used this very responsibility against him on numerous occasions when he tried to distance himself from her, trying to make him feel guilty for "abandoning" her as her spiritual guide.

The tactic wouldn't have been new, just a different flavor, more similar to the numerous times in April when she texted him about Mormon -related questions/topics, then thanked him profusely for his knowledge and for being there to assist her.

I'm not sure he would have even needed to think her sincere if she professed a need for his spiritual assistance to help her get right. I think he might have felt obligated to not turn her away, at the very least, and given his own recent experience with Lisa, perhaps tentatively encouraged she was at least trying.

Does all that fit in with ending up in bed? No more or less than it ever had before.

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And with Jodi, past is usually prologue. ie for men, If you're going to be alone with Jodi, you're going to end up dead or in bed.

Steve44 said:

And with Jodi, past is usually prologue. ie for men, If you're going to be alone with Jodi, you're going to end up dead or in bed.

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LOL. Did you catch this question a recent interviewer asked JM and his reply?

Q. Who would you choose to sleep with- Nancy Grace or the ?
JM: (demurs, pauses) Nancy Grace, because at least I could be sure I'd wake up the next day.

I do not see Travis as self-loathing. I believe he carried some emotional scars that made him feel inferior in some ways, inept in others, vulnerable at times, but I do not believe he hated himself. For that matter, I think he was self-aware, insightful, tolerant to a fault, all because of his childhood. I think he was capable of feeling enormous amounts of guilt, partly due to his past and partly due to his religious beliefs. But all in all, I believe Travis was capable of loving others, and he could not do that if he did not love himself.

Guilt can really do a number on a person on many levels. And Travis carried a great deal of it...he was always striving to be a better person and was disappointed in himself whenever he fell short of those goals. But self-loathing? Nope. I don't see that.

krkrjx said:

I do not see Travis as self-loathing. I believe he carried some emotional scars that made him feel inferior in some ways, inept in others, vulnerable at times, but I do not believe he hated himself. For that matter, I think he was self-aware, insightful, tolerant to a fault, all because of his childhood. I think he was capable of feeling enormous amounts of guilt, partly due to his past and partly due to his religious beliefs. But all in all, I believe Travis was capable of loving others, and he could not do that if he did not love himself.

Guilt can really do a number on a person on many levels. And Travis carried a great deal of it...he was always striving to be a better person and was disappointed in himself whenever he fell short of those goals. But self-loathing? Nope. I don't see that.

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I agree. One needs to have quite a bit of self confidence to be a motivational speaker and to write a book about oneself. Emotionally insecure and self conflicted b/o the pressure from his church to be married by 30 maybe, and that's why the killer chose him as her prey. He didn't have the skills emotionally to sever all ties with her. As TexMex stated, someone with firsthand experience with a BPD female, she made him doubt himself enough where she knew she could always sliver back in. She knew if she appeared at his doorstep June 4 he would let her in and they could continue their pursuit of their sexual fantasies for old times sake because he certainly wasn't going to visit her in Yreka. The hour phone call on June 2 was her probably assessing if he'd be home and available so she could carry out the murder. She knew now that she had moved they were done because of the distance between them and his SM posts regarding new females in his life. She used the one tool in her box she was certain would work - sex.
And that's what single people do, hook up. Nothing wrong with that as well.

krkrjx said:

I do not see Travis as self-loathing. I believe he carried some emotional scars that made him feel inferior in some ways, inept in others, vulnerable at times, but I do not believe he hated himself. For that matter, I think he was self-aware, insightful, tolerant to a fault, all because of his childhood. I think he was capable of feeling enormous amounts of guilt, partly due to his past and partly due to his religious beliefs. But all in all, I believe Travis was capable of loving others, and he could not do that if he did not love himself.

Guilt can really do a number on a person on many levels. And Travis carried a great deal of it...he was always striving to be a better person and was disappointed in himself whenever he fell short of those goals. But self-loathing? Nope. I don't see that.

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I don't think he hated himself either, at least not continually. But I do think he was more damaged than just feeling occasionally inferior, self-doubting, and vulnerable.

I was referring to one specific period of time, mid to late May. Travis was definitely experiencing...choose a term--intense feelings of guilt, or of self-hatred, or of worthlessness. Wasn't the first time, either.

I can't remember which book it was that included Taylor's memory of conversations he had with Travis after the moved to Mesa and they had become sexually active. What Travis expressed to Taylor wasn't about just feeling disappointment with himself, or the like. He told Taylor he hated himself, as in loathed himself, had difficulty living with himself. Powerful words, and emotions.

According to Taylor, those feelings weren't connected to Travis's relationship with the Church, the self-hatred was entirely about Travis despising himself for being "weak," and for failing to exercise self-control.


The tolerant to a fault. Yes, precisely, emphasis perhaps on the "to a fault." Compassion and the ability to forgive are wonderful and admirable traits, up to a point. Extending compassion and forgiveness to one's abuser or when others routinely cross the line, not so much. IMO sometimes what appears like tolerance is better understood as not being able to set boundaries, for whatever reason.

Self aware. Travis wanted and tried to be that, IMO. I think of self awareness as a process, not a destination, and TA certainly seemed to be travelling that path. Rereading his "Raising Me" first chapter on his blog, though, it is difficult not to be struck by what he says in the first paragraph--that he "wouldn't have changed a thing" about his childhood. Really? I understand why he said that, but IMO that sentiment reflected denial and rationalization far more than it did transcendence (completely typical for adult survivors of childhood abuse).

Tex-- did that abstract possible scenario not meet you half way?

Madeleine74 said:

This case reminds me of some other cases. In and of itself it's not the big mystery to me as it has been to others. I can't possibly know what went through anyone else's mind, speaking of the people involved in the case, unless they specifically told/tell us. I'm not a mind reader and I don't feel a compulsion to try and guess either, it's because I like answers, not guesses. Some things cannot be known and I can live with that. In the end it is what it is. Maybe someone else will learn from this case, but probably not many.

Arias doesn't scare me like she does others here. She's like any other premeditated first degree killer--they're all dangerous in their own way. As long as society is safe from a killer, then that's all I can hope for. Can't bring back any of the dead and spending time hating her is energy I don't have to expend. For instance, if JA's mug is on a tabloid in the store, 99% of the time I don't even notice it or give it a 2nd thought--I look past her as if she doesn't exist. She holds no place in my brain, outside of the times I've participated in these various threads. I've never found her interesting; in fact I couldn't bear to watch most of her testimony because it/she was so deadly dull. She really is out of sight/out of mind for me. The sentence she got was the exact sentence I always thought she'd get, there was zero fear of her getting anything less. My feelings about or towards her felt a lot like how Juan described his feelings. For him it was another case, not terribly unlike other cases, just a longer one. He wasted no energy on the murderess--she didn't fascinate him or scare him either. Just another disordered person who killed and who needed to be convicted.

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Arias herself shouldn't scare anyone at this point, save perhaps a certain population in Perryville, but when you think of her psychology being extant in the population to a certain degree, and that any of us can be caught up unawares into interaction with her type and become vulnerable to the kinds of manipulations she used on Travis and others, it's prudent to try to understand her psychology and to be aware her type exists, and the extremes of behavior the type is capable of.

Steve44 said:

Arias herself shouldn't scare anyone at this point, save perhaps a certain population in Perryville, but when you think of her psychology being extant in the population to a certain degree, and that any of us can be caught up unawares into interaction with her type and become vulnerable to the kinds of manipulations she used on Travis and others, it's prudent to try to understand her psychology and to be aware her type exists, and the extremes of behavior the type is capable of.

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I agree it's important for everyone to learn to spot signs in someone with whom you may be involved (or may be thinking of getting involved). Arias was not the first, not by a long shot, and she sure isn't the last. She's just another one of them, not exceptionally special in any way. You can literally go back decades and find good examples of the same behaviors in past cases and of course we know a more recent case (murder of Ryan Poston by Shayna Huber) which is eerily similar to Travis.'

Arias was imagined (by many) to be the worst killer ever, ever ever. Like Jason from Halloween level of scary or Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I'm sure I'm not the only one who saw that level of hyperbole. I just laughed at the time, because Arias is none of those things. She's as common as a cold. She's not nearly as smart as she imagined herself to be--she got caught immediately. Everyone else saw she was trouble.

We all have a God-given gut instinct that we too often fail to acknowledge and act upon. This is the subject of Gavin DeBecker's seminal 1997 book, "The Gift of Fear." Or as I like to say, "When you see crazy coming, cross the street!"

Hope4More said:

LOL. Did you catch this question a recent interviewer asked JM and his reply?

Q. Who would you choose to sleep with- Nancy Grace or the ?
JM: (demurs, pauses) Nancy Grace, because at least I could be sure I'd wake up the next day.

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It didn't occur to me until I watched the rest of the PP2 videos but I wonder what the reason was for JM's boss to have been sitting in on every day of the retrial, wish I would have added that to the questions for JM thread.

Finally finished with the marathon watching, and I have one question - when JSS sentenced her, didn't JSS say JA couldn't be released for any reason? I replayed the sentence delivery and that line wasn't there - was it cut? Stated at some point earlier that I missed? I thought it was directly after saying she was remanded to DOC for natural life.

Hope4More said:

Tex-- did that abstract possible scenario not meet you half way?

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Ok. Sorry so long to reply. Traveling today. Sitting in Reed Arena at College of Engineering graduation at Texas A&M University...

I honestly don't think he was scared of her. I don't think he was still angry. If he was he would have told her to leave.
I think she arrived with a check, the CDs and a story. It's what she did, manipulate.

Imo it was *hey! Told you about the road trip....can I crash here just for a few hours? I've been on the road all day. Even ate breakfast with Darryl and waved to little Jack (IIRC?) as he got on the school bus. So that was 20 hours ago! Wow I'm tired. Gotta rest so I can get to Utah ASAP! I'll be gone before dark I promise! Oh yeah, brought this check for $200! Brought the CD with pics too, we can look at those when we get up*

Pretty soon she's rubbing up on him and making suggestive comments and the rest is sadly history. It was that easy. Travis didn't make any dramatic emotional calculations or jump back in fear. It was Jodi, they'll have sex, then she'll leave. She had some place to be soon. Win/win

Madeleine74 said:

I agree it's important for everyone to learn to spot signs in someone with whom you may be involved (or may be thinking of getting involved). Arias was not the first, not by a long shot, and she sure isn't the last. She's just another one of them, not exceptionally special in any way. You can literally go back decades and find good examples of the same behaviors in past cases and of course we know a more recent case (murder of Ryan Poston by Shayna Huber) which is eerily similar to Travis.'

Arias was imagined (by many) to be the worst killer ever, ever ever. Like Jason from Halloween level of scary or Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I'm sure I'm not the only one who saw that level of hyperbole. I just laughed at the time, because Arias is none of those things. She's as common as a cold. She's not nearly as smart as she imagined herself to be--she got caught immediately. Everyone else saw she was trouble.

We all have a God-given gut instinct that we too often fail to acknowledge and act upon. This is the subject of Gavin DeBecker's seminal 1997 book, "The Gift of Fear." Or as I like to say, "When you see crazy coming, cross the street!"

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I think what contributed to that was her poised comportment which implied justification, the ease with which she transitioned from lie to lie and expected the public to give as little importance to the resulting contradictions as she did, the brutality of the crime as shown by the evidence which was never addressed or adequately acknowledged by the perpetrator, as if it were an unimportant detail.

All of this pointed to a psychology that was dangerous in its ability to hide and to justify itself, was predatory and brutal, yet difficult to trace, recognize, or understand.

All of this contributed to a perception of evil more than just the act itself.

Does anyone know if Travis had his Temple Recommend at the time of his murder? I am curious about this because if he did not, does that mean he had already confessed to his Bishop about something not in line with his church beliefs?

salberg7 said:

Does anyone know if Travis had his Temple Recommend at the time of his murder? I am curious about this because if he did not, does that mean he had already confessed to his Bishop about something not in line with his church beliefs?

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He did not have Temple privileges at the time he was killed. He met with bishop then later with a disciplinary council before Jodi left Mesa, per the Hughes. Mimi's dad was on that council. Sky invited him to their new baby's blessing in early June and Travis replied he could not attend.

Steve44 said:

I think what contributed to that was her poised comportment which implied justification, the ease with which she transitioned from lie to lie and expected the public to give as little importance to the resulting contradictions as she did, the brutality of the crime as shown by the evidence which was never addressed or adequately acknowledged by the perpetrator, as if it were an unimportant detail.

All of this pointed to a psychology that was dangerous in its ability to hide and to justify itself, was predatory and brutal, yet difficult to trace, recognize, or understand.

All of this contributed to a perception of evil more than just the act itself.

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I'm not being dramatic when I say I've worked in corporate America over a couple decades with several sociopaths. They are often drawn to corporations because they can make $$$$ and rise high. I've seen poised lying liars who lie ALL the time. And politics...hello? I'm not even going there, but suffice it to say if you think Arias has the corner on ease of lying and transitioning through many lies, she doesn't. The only difference is Arias committed a heinous murder and got caught and was on trial and took the stand. Her span of injuring others in free society has come to a swift end, or at best, a teeny tiny trickle.

I've become better at spotting sociopaths because I've had to deal with them in my life. One guy literally made the hair on the back of my neck stand up within 2 min of meeting him and then I had to (try to) work with him directly. It was sheer Hell. Something like 5% or more of senior management in corporations would test positive on the sociopathic scales, btw. No conscience, no guilt, have to be in control, don't care who else gets hurt, etc, etc.

So my perspective is Arias is not really all that scary and I'd be much more afraid of a random serial killer than some clingy BPD woman in search of a man to hang on to (or a corporate executive who has control over my ability to keep my job or not).

Madeleine74 said:

I'm not being dramatic when I say I've worked in corporate America over a couple decades with several sociopaths. They are often drawn to corporations because they can make $$$$ and rise high. I've seen poised lying liars who lie ALL the time. And politics...hello? I'm not even going there, but suffice it to say if you think Arias has the corner on ease of lying and transitioning through many lies, she doesn't. The only difference is Arias committed a heinous murder and got caught and was on trial and took the stand. Her span of injuring others in free society has come to a swift end, or at best, a teeny tiny trickle.

I've become better at spotting sociopaths because I've had to deal with them in my life. One guy literally made the hair on the back of my neck stand up within 2 min of meeting him and then I had to (try to) work with him directly. It was sheer Hell. Something like 5% or more of senior management in corporations would test positive on the sociopathic scales, btw. No conscience, no guilt, have to be in control, don't care who else gets hurt, etc, etc.

So my perspective is Arias is not really all that scary and I'd be much more afraid of a random serial killer than some clingy BPD woman in search of a man to hang on to (or a corporate executive who has control over my ability to keep my job or not).

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No one is claiming Arias had a monopoly on psychopathy or sociopathy. The fact she is not unique makes examining her case closely and trying to understand her psychology potentially worthwhile
and the knowledge applicable beyond just her case.

Perhaps the fact that you claim to have had such knowledge prior to this case lessened your interest. That's no reason to assume that that lessened interest is or should be the norm, particularly for people with no such prior knowledge.

This case put psychopathy full on display for all to see. The extreme dichotomy of her public vs. private behavior, both of which became fully known to an extent not usual, the self-justification, the lack of remorse, the willingness to go to any lengths to gaslight. Common psychopathic behavior perhaps, yet uniquely on display and visible for all to see, and learn from.

It should not be surprising to see such a strong reaction from people to such a clear and blatant example of psychopathy, particularly from people without your life-experience and to whom this is all rather new.

The original claim I responded to was (paraphrasing): Arias is unique because she is *so adept* at lying and switching seamlessly from one lie to the next and thinking people should (or will) just believe it, not that she wasn't unique.

My assertion is Arias and her ability to lie and keep switching her lies up seamlessly, isn't all that unique and it's something we have seen from others (including some politicians as one example) in the course of going about life. The difference is Arias committed a heinous murder AND there was a tremendous amount of publicity and analysis about the case, and it involved kinky sex and nudity and photos and extreme gore, which draws people in like nothing else and creates more attention. I remember a thread that went on for a few weeks that essentially devolved into discussing Arias' nether regions in some detail, with a burgeoning participation late night after 10pm. Maybe people had their few glasses of wine and then came to contribute to the party, as it were.

Arias isn't very interesting as a person. If you found her meandering stories while on the stand interesting that's great; I personally found her and her stories deadly dull. JUAN was interesting, Juan's questions were interesting, and other people and witnesses were interesting, but Jodi, not so much. I realize some folks are endlessly fascinated by Jodi and what makes her tick and find her lies worth listening to--I do understand she has a certain 'lure.'

Everyone gets to have their own reaction. My reaction to Arias has consistently been, "yawwwwn." Not to Juan, not to the Alexander family, not to Travis, but to the killer. Plus she doesn't deserve to be acknowledged. To me that's a nice thumbs-up to Travis and his family -- the killer deserves to be warehoused and forgotten, left on the shelf to grow old and moldy and alone for the rest of her days. Double-bonus that it happens to be the killer's worst fear. :smile:

As for seeing sociopaths, recognizing them, learning about them, I have read about the subject over the years ("The Gift of Fear," "The Sociopath Next Door," "Snakes in Suits") and looked at the people around me in various situations to see if certain behaviors matched what I read.

Steve44 said:

No one is claiming Arias had a monopoly on psychopathy or sociopathy. The fact she is not unique makes examining her case closely and trying to understand her psychology potentially worthwhile
and the knowledge applicable beyond just her case.

Perhaps the fact that you claim to have had such knowledge prior to this case lessened your interest. That's no reason to assume that that lessened interest is or should be the norm, particularly for people with no such prior knowledge.

This case put psychopathy full on display for all to see. The extreme dichotomy of her public vs. private behavior, both of which became fully known to an extent not usual, the self-justification, the lack of remorse, the willingness to go to any lengths to gaslight. Common psychopathic behavior perhaps, yet uniquely on display and visible for all to see, and learn from.

It should not be surprising to see such a strong reaction from people to such a clear and blatant example of psychopathy, particularly from people without your life-experience and to whom this is all rather new.

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Madeleine74 said:

The original claim I responded to was (paraphrasing): Arias is unique because she is *so adept* at lying and switching seamlessly from one lie to the next and thinking people should (or will) just believe it, not that she wasn't unique.

My assertion is Arias and her ability to lie and keep switching her lies up seamlessly, isn't all that unique and it's something we have seen from others (including some politicians as one example) in the course of going about life. The difference is Arias committed a heinous murder AND there was a tremendous amount of publicity and analysis about the case, and it involved kinky sex and nudity and photos and extreme gore, which draws people in like nothing else and creates more attention. I remember a thread that went on for a few weeks that essentially devolved into discussing Arias' nether regions in some detail, with a burgeoning participation late night after 10pm. Maybe people had their few glasses of wine and then came to contribute to the party, as it were.

Arias isn't very interesting as a person. If you found her meandering stories while on the stand interesting that's great; I personally found her and her stories deadly dull. JUAN was interesting, Juan's questions were interesting, and other people and witnesses were interesting, but Jodi, not so much. I realize some folks are endlessly fascinated by Jodi and what makes her tick and find her lies worth listening to--I do understand she has a certain 'lure.'

Everyone gets to have their own reaction. My reaction to Arias has consistently been, "yawwwwn." Not to Juan, not to the Alexander family, not to Travis, but to the killer. Plus she doesn't deserve to be acknowledged. To me that's a nice thumbs-up to Travis and his family -- the killer deserves to be warehoused and forgotten, left on the shelf to grow old and moldy and alone for the rest of her days. Double-bonus that it happens to be the killer's worst fear. :smile:

As for seeing sociopaths, recognizing them, learning about them, I have read about the subject over the years ("The Gift of Fear," "The Sociopath Next Door," "Snakes in Suits") and looked at the people around me in various situations to see if certain behaviors matched what I read.

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I don't mean to challenge the validity of your point of view, based at it is on the foundation of your own experience, only to point out that other points of view are as valid, and have their own foundations just as sound, even if less well informed.

I agree she is not unique as a liar, or particularly interesting. Casey Anthony had her bested, imo, and I think some of the interest in this case was in seeing whether or not the outcome would be the same.

Bernie Madoff lived in a sociopaths paradise for decades, among the 1%, with wealth, honor, and accolades, all fed on the eventual financial ruin of thousands upon thousands of people, and maintained by his ability to lie with a broad smile and without a hint of conscience.

It wasn't so much the content of her lies that I found interesting, it was just the fact she made the attempt in light of the evidence to the contrary. I wanted to see more clearly the psychology behind that attempt, the primal need to make it. The viability of the lies was of no importance.

Steve44 said:

I don't mean to challenge the validity of your point of view, based at it is on the foundation of your own experience, only to point out that other points of view are as valid, and have their own foundations just as sound, even if less well informed.

I agree she is not unique as a liar, or particularly interesting. Casey Anthony had her bested, imo, and I think some of the interest in this case was in seeing whether or not the outcome would be the same.

Bernie Madoff lived in a sociopaths paradise for decades, among the 1%, with wealth, honor, and accolades, all fed on the eventual financial ruin of thousands upon thousands of people, and maintained by his ability to lie with a broad smile and without a hint of conscience.

It wasn't so much the content of her lies that I found interesting, it was just the fact she made the attempt in light of the evidence to the contrary. I wanted to see more clearly the psychology behind that attempt, the primal need to make it. The viability of the lies was of no importance.

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Exactly. It was not her stories that were interesting (ah the international romance of young Jodi and her Costa Rican Victor), it was the absolute pathology of the web she spun. She literally made up Travis having a gun in the closet on the witness stand, on the fly.

It is very rare for a defendant to take the stand in a murder trial. To have one do so for 19 days and undergo cross was amazing.

TexMex said:

Exactly. It was not her stories that were interesting (ah the international romance of young Jodi and her Costa Rican Victor), it was the absolute pathology of the web she spun. She literally made up Travis having a gun in the closet on the witness stand, on the fly.

It is very rare for a defendant to take the stand in a murder trial. To have one do so for 19 days and undergo cross was amazing.

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And the promise of insight that was implied, leading the jury through the detailed story of her life leading up to the murder, and then the fog rolls in and absolves her of all accountability, a great circle ending at the starting point with all the questions remaining unanswered, but her failure to take responsibility intact. For all it lacked, revealing never the less.

Did anyone harbor the illusion she would take responsibility for anything, let alone TA's murder? She was attempting to claim self-defense, afterall. I think there were collective eye rolls from the first words of opening statements by the defense.