Conrad Murray trial -Day seven.

I think Murray intended to get a DR in london ,so he would be able to use another doctors merits when ordering the prescription drugs in london.

Soulmagent said:

I think Murray intended to get a DR in london ,so he would be able to use another doctors merits when ordering the prescription drugs in london.

Click to expand...

How do you know Dr. Murray intended to get a dr in london to help him?

That is illegal. Dr. Murray would have to present paperwork to customs dept if he tried to take any of MJ's drugs with them and every little detail has to be ironed out and prearranged before they leave and we saw the mess Dr. Murray was in already. It would be very difficult to find a doctor willing to risk their medical license so they can please Michael Jackson and his doctor so it is very unlikely Dr. Murray could get drugs in another country. Leaving the US to go on tour to a foreign country was more than Dr. Murray could handle. A doctor in London would be very foolish to allow another doctor to use his medical number. Who would be willing to supply the propofol and all the medical supplies?

This is a huge problem for Dr. Murray and imo what motivated him to kill Michael.

Oh, Brother.....Nancy Grace and her Bombshell Tonight

Here we go

octobermoon said:

Joe Jones (snipped and bolded by me)

I really wonder too!

my jaw still drops at the fact that any Dr would even contemplate such risky procedures, and I do wonder who it was that originally introduced him to propofol, as he knew of it and had used it pre Dr Murray

Click to expand...

Well, certainly MJ had had several surgeries --so maybe that's how he discovered it. It may have been used for induction or possibly if he had had a brief surgical procedure. The anesthesiologist usually conferences with the patient before surgery, and he/she would have told MJ what drugs/anesthesia were going to be used during surgery.

That was my experience anyway.... who knows?

joe jones said:

I wonder if propofol would ever be prescribed on an individually named prescription over the counter

Click to expand...

Never happen, IMO.

Michael had to give up Neverland Ranch because he OVER-SPENT. He lost it.

IMO, I think MJ wanted to leave this world.....He has been drugged out for several years.

joe jones said:

he didn;t appear to keep things very neat and tidy, there were 3 children in that house, I wonder if the rooms that were used to administer the drugs was locked when MJ was out at rehearsals

Click to expand...

Somewhere along the line today, I heard someone say that this bedroom (#2) was not the one he always used. Maybe he had the other one near his kids' bedrooms, and considered #2 his "grown-ups only" area, so as to keep the kids out... ????

Fact of the matter is that Michael Jackson had CUSTODY of two children that were evidently under HIS care !!! How does that happen? We all know MJ is an addict. JJ claims that she and the family tried to put him into treatment but that didn't happen.....Then, he goes into bankruptcy and loses the ranch and all property and some big entertainment company comes along to be the saviour and his family says OK, along with sis JJ.....Pitiful.

Originally Posted by outofstatelawyer [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7191207#post7191207"]

[/ame]
uh, the catheter only collects the urine in the ureter. The urine flows out through tubing to...somewhere. Like a bag or a jug. This is extremely common in hospitals, especially after surgery.
The obvious question is, if the patient wasn't asleep or under anesthesia, why would he need a cath at all, and the answer is, he wouldn't. I think this is further evidence that the defendant has not been truthful.

joe jones said:

thats what I meant he had bags for collection of the urine, leaving it in jugs is so unprofessional and unhygienic

Click to expand...

Here's another view of the condom catheter thing: MJ's autopsy mentioned prostate enlargement & a couple of other prostate-related findings, but nothing that sounded alarming.

Flomax, one of MJ's meds, can be prescribed for patients having trouble with urination such as dribbling, incomplete emptying and needing to urinate during sleep, and those with prostrate problems.

I think the catheter was there because the doc knew MJ would be in a deep sleep and because of his prostate problem. Two birds with one stone.

At least it's a possibility...

Thundar said:

The whole catheter thing in a home situation without hospice being involved is just beyond any normal humans comprehension. And the way it looks like a shoddy homemade type of collection just adds to the confusion.

Click to expand...

Excessive use of Central nervous system depressants can cause difficulties with urination.. especially initiating urination. my guess is Michael couldn't urinate on his own because of the drugs so he was cathed'. My mom has been on Oxycontin and Methadone for many years and she has an extremely difficult time going to the bathroom.

borndem said:

Somewhere along the line today, I heard someone say that this bedroom (#2) was not the one he always used. Maybe he had the other one near his kids' bedrooms, and considered #2 his "grown-ups only" area, so as to keep the kids out... ????

Click to expand...

Elissa Fleak who testified in court on Wednesday, noted the following observations in the autopsy report that I did not hear her state in Court today which are very interesting imo.

“the bedroom on the second floor to the right of the top of the staircase where the decedent had been resting and entered cardiac arrest was not his usual bedroom. His usual bedroom was located down the hall. The bedding on the queen size bed was disheveled and appeared as though someone had been lying on the left side of the bed.”

Over Michael’s lower back were several ¼ = ½ inch perimortem abrasions caused by the beads lying on his bed. (Comment: Scene photographs show beads on the bed).

The central chest shows a 1-1/2 x 1 - ¼ inch irregular abrasion with a surrounding 3 x 3 inch bruise. The soft tissue of the left anterior chest shows a 3- ½ x 2 inch bruise and the soft tissue of the right anterior chest shows a 5 x 3 - ½ inch bruise. The sternum is fractured at the level of the 3rd rib. The right 4th and 5th ribs are fractured at the chondrocostal junction and the left 3rd, 4th and 5th ribs are fractured at the chondrosternal junction.

HOW DO WE KNOW DR. MURRAY DID NOT BEAT MICHAEL IN THE CHEST TO KILL HIM?

Also concerning Michael’s right knee that I commented on today, there is a 2 x 1/8 inch semicircular scar on the right knee with several smaller scars distal to it measuring ½ to ¼ inch in length. Nothing was noted on the left knee.

OneLostGrl said:

Excessive use of Central nervous system depressants can cause difficulties with urination.. especially initiating urination. my guess is Michael couldn't urinate on his own because of the drugs so he was cathed'. My mom has been on Oxycontin and Methadone for many years and she has an extremely difficult time going to the bathroom.

Click to expand...

From what I understand, that is not the type of urine catheter he had. MJ had a condom catheter. IMO this catheter is so he would not urinate on himself while he was sedated:

http://www.health.com/health/library/mdp/0,,zm2413,00.html

Unlike other urinary catheters, a condom catheter is not inserted into the urethra. Instead, a special condom is attached to a catheter to keep the catheter in place and to collect urine. The condom catheter is used only for short periods of time.

Bluesky#1 said:

Elissa Fleak who testified in court on Wednesday, noted the following observations in the autopsy report that I did not hear her state in Court today which are very interesting imo.

“the bedroom on the second floor to the right of the top of the staircase where the decedent had been resting and entered cardiac arrest was not his usual bedroom. His usual bedroom was located down the hall. The bedding on the queen size bed was disheveled and appeared as though someone had been lying on the left side of the bed.”

Over Michael’s lower back were several ¼ = ½ inch perimortem abrasions caused by the beads lying on his bed. (Comment: Scene photographs show beads on the bed).

The central chest shows a 1-1/2 x 1 - ¼ inch irregular abrasion with a surrounding 3 x 3 inch bruise. The soft tissue of the left anterior chest shows a 3- ½ x 2 inch bruise and the soft tissue of the right anterior chest shows a 5 x 3 - ½ inch bruise. The sternum is fractured at the level of the 3rd rib. The right 4th and 5th ribs are fractured at the chondrocostal junction and the left 3rd, 4th and 5th ribs are fractured at the chondrosternal junction.

HOW DO WE KNOW DR. MURRAY DID NOT BEAT MICHAEL IN THE CHEST TO KILL HIM?

Also concerning Michael’s right knee that I commented on today, there is a 2 x 1/8 inch semicircular scar on the right knee with several smaller scars distal to it measuring ½ to ¼ inch in length. Nothing was noted on the left knee.

Click to expand...

MJ was receiving chest compression for quite some time. It is not uncommon at all to get fractured ribs from CPR.

http://www.firstaidreference.com/cpr-rib-fracture/113/

Today on the stand the coroner investigator was asked by prosecution if she saw any external signs of trauma that concerned her or could have caused death and she said no.

AuburnSchnauzer said:

Fact of the matter is that Michael Jackson had CUSTODY of two children that were evidently under HIS care !!! How does that happen? We all know MJ is an addict. JJ claims that she and the family tried to put him into treatment but that didn't happen.....Then, he goes into bankruptcy and loses the ranch and all property and some big entertainment company comes along to be the saviour and his family says OK, along with sis JJ.....Pitiful.

Click to expand...

First of all, MJ has 3 children, not 2.

When did he file bankruptcy, lose the ranch and all his property? I'm not sure that is at all what happened. I could be wrong but I do believe he voluntarily left Neverland after the molestation trial for which he was acquitted on all charges. He left the country for awhile and upon his return, went to Vegas for a while, then when back to LA did not want to go back to Neverland. As far as I recall, upon his death he owned a majority of the ranch along with a company that he partially owned and now his estate owns the ranch.

You may know for a fact that MJ was an addict. I can not sit here and say that I know for a fact that he was. There are some speculating that he was and some speculating that he wasn't.

Upon his own admission quite a number of years ago, he was addicted to pain medications that he was taking after his Pepsi commercial burn accident. He voluntarily went into treatment for that. Everything else about his drug addiction or lack thereof is purely speculation by all of us in the general public.

ETA: I am not a diehard MJ fan and never have been and that is not the reason for this post. I believe he was a very talented entertainer along with many other entertainers that I enjoy watching and listening to. I am not defending his lifestyle or what others purport his lifestyle to be as I have no way of personally knowing for a fact what it was or wasn't. I am merely placing this post because it's post like the above (IMO) that is how ridiculous rumors get started and it just grows from there. I truly believe a lot of what is in the media about a lot of celebrities, MJ included, is overblown most of the time and in some cases total fabrication. The media does not care whatsoever what they print about people, how wrong or right it is as long as their ratings go up and they sell copies of their printed material. IMO



IMO

Bluesky#1 said:

How do you know Dr. Murray intended to get a dr in london to help him?

That is illegal. Dr. Murray would have to present paperwork to customs dept if he tried to take any of MJ's drugs with them and every little detail has to be ironed out and prearranged before they leave and we saw the mess Dr. Murray was in already. It would be very difficult to find a doctor willing to risk their medical license so they can please Michael Jackson and his doctor so it is very unlikely Dr. Murray could get drugs in another country. Leaving the US to go on tour to a foreign country was more than Dr. Murray could handle. A doctor in London would be very foolish to allow another doctor to use his medical number. Who would be willing to supply the propofol and all the medical supplies?

This is a huge problem for Dr. Murray and imo what motivated him to kill Michael.

Click to expand...

I believe that Dr.Murray did intend to hire a physician in London. The reason I think this is the contract initially said he was allowed to hire a nurse and he specifically requested that be changed to say "assistant". When the AEG atty asked him why he wanted that changed, he said in case he had to hire a doctor to help him in the event he got tired, etc. She said this in her testimony last week.

I don't believe it was in case he got tired. I believe it was because he knew he could not practice medicine in London and was going to have to have a local licensed physician. The AEG atty testified that she asked him how he was going to deal with a license in England and he said for her not to worry about that, he'd handle it. (per her testimony last week). Now...where or how he was going to go about getting one to do what he wanted is another matter altogether. So, he got the contract revised to allow him to be able to hire another doctor to assist him, at no cost to him, and still get his $150,000 per month.

I also question how he intended to legally bring all those drugs into England.

From what I heard by a doctor licensed in England that was on the Dr.Drew show last week, without Dr.Murray being licensed in either Ireland or England, he could not practice private or public medicine of any kind in England.

I don't know what Murray was going to do about practicing in London other than just keep his mouth shut, or maybe b/c it is MJ no one would bother, IDK. It would be interesting to find out.

I don't know if it would be a problem getting the propofol in since it is not a "controlled substance". Any other prescriptions a small amount could be shipped as long they were in MJ's name, I am guessing as I cannot imagine every person that goes to England is prescription free. Another doctor in London would be helpful for obtaining prescriptions if Murray ran out of them or if Murray's US license did not allow prescriptions. I guess we would have to know more about these things, but am willing to bet AEG already knew since they are AEG and do these things worldwide.

How on earth did Murray use all of those supplies so quickly? I cannot think of all of that propofol having been used up already. Was that what he and the girlfriends were moving out right after MJ died? Has this been clarified in trial yet?

Here is another reason CM didn’t want to go to London.

Michelle Bella did answer 'yes' when asked if Murray had told her he hoped to "meet up with you" later at a club in Las Vegas before he left for London with Jackson.

The tour was scheduled to begin in July 2009 and continue through to March 2010 which means CM would be gone for almost 10 months and imo he didn’t want to give up his lifestyle. Casey Anthony wanted to party rather than take care of her child and Conrad Murray made the same choice. He did not want to give up his lifestyle to take care of Michael so he murdered him.

Bluesky#1 said:

How do you know Dr. Murray intended to get a dr in london to help him?

That is illegal. Dr. Murray would have to present paperwork to customs dept if he tried to take any of MJ's drugs with them and every little detail has to be ironed out and prearranged before they leave and we saw the mess Dr. Murray was in already. It would be very difficult to find a doctor willing to risk their medical license so they can please Michael Jackson and his doctor so it is very unlikely Dr. Murray could get drugs in another country. Leaving the US to go on tour to a foreign country was more than Dr. Murray could handle. A doctor in London would be very foolish to allow another doctor to use his medical number. Who would be willing to supply the propofol and all the medical supplies?

This is a huge problem for Dr. Murray and imo what motivated him to kill Michael.

Click to expand...

Excellent post! Good points.

Bluesky#1 said:

How do you know Dr. Murray intended to get a dr in london to help him?

That is illegal. Dr. Murray would have to present paperwork to customs dept if he tried to take any of MJ's drugs with them and every little detail has to be ironed out and prearranged before they leave and we saw the mess Dr. Murray was in already. It would be very difficult to find a doctor willing to risk their medical license so they can please Michael Jackson and his doctor so it is very unlikely Dr. Murray could get drugs in another country. Leaving the US to go on tour to a foreign country was more than Dr. Murray could handle. A doctor in London would be very foolish to allow another doctor to use his medical number. Who would be willing to supply the propofol and all the medical supplies?

This is a huge problem for Dr. Murray and imo what motivated him to kill Michael.

Click to expand...

I'm curious why you say that Dr. Murray obtaining a physician in London to treat MJ would be illegal or am I misunderstanding what part of your post that you are saying would be illegal?

I agree it would likely be very difficult to find an attorney in London that would treat MJ based on Dr. Murray's instruction and equally difficult for Dr. Murray to get all those drugs into the country legally but I don't see how hiring a physician to assist him in treating MJ in London would be illegal (other than perhaps what the treatment would be but that is another story).

Bluesky#1 said:

How do you know Dr. Murray intended to get a dr in london to help him?

That is illegal. Dr. Murray would have to present paperwork to customs dept if he tried to take any of MJ's drugs with them and every little detail has to be ironed out and prearranged before they leave and we saw the mess Dr. Murray was in already. It would be very difficult to find a doctor willing to risk their medical license so they can please Michael Jackson and his doctor so it is very unlikely Dr. Murray could get drugs in another country. Leaving the US to go on tour to a foreign country was more than Dr. Murray could handle. A doctor in London would be very foolish to allow another doctor to use his medical number. Who would be willing to supply the propofol and all the medical supplies?

This is a huge problem for Dr. Murray and imo what motivated him to kill Michael.

Click to expand...

I dont know he intended to . I think he did based on his wanting the wording changed to needing a medical professional instead of specificly a nurse on the AEG contract.

I would have thought it would have been hard for Micheal Jackson to find any doctor willing to give him propofol ,but where there is one there will be two.

We are not talking chump change here. Alot of money. 150,000 a month. A doctor in london could get drugs in london and that is all Murray needed.
A drug dealer with a degree. (and they are out there)
I dont think the doctor was motivated to kill Micheal based on him not being able to score the propofol in london.

I think it was a plan of more then one person and was completely because they had run out of options for Micheal in avoiding the medical records and the check ups. People would have lost million of dollars had the tour just been canceled.