17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #7

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m00c0w said:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/objective

In a perfect world, it would be purely objective. However, it's often not. As I stated, there are certain times when PC is very clear-cut. Most of the time, however, it's left up to the officer and prosecutor to decide by interpreting what they have. That is subjective.
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With all due respect, you do not understand what the word "subjective" means.

ALL rational, "objective" conclusions are drawn by somebody, whether a judge, cop, DA, scientist, doctor or philosopher. That doesn't mean the conclusions are subjective. Probably cause has an objective standard, one which does not account for prejudices, flights of fancy, whims, hunches or religious visions.

If an individual uses any of those subjective tests, then he has betrayed the process (and, yes, that does happen at times). But it doesn't reveal the legal standard to be subjective; it merely shows that human beings make mistakes.
 
claudicici said:
I think Zimmerman made it a racial issue when he found a black teenager suspicious and when he called him a "*advertiser censored** coon" on the 911 call.That why you can't blame "certain individuals" of getting involved .
Other than that I agree it should be about justice ,regardless of race,age ,gender or choice of clothes you should be able to walk down a street and not be followed by an armed civilian.
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BBM

So now it's okay that there are divisive individuals that are making it an us/them issue? :waitasec:
 
mikeysmommom said:
LE did not leak its on the call GZ was on when he told dispatcher he was going back to his truck he never said how close he was to his truck.How do you know where he was when he started to go to his truck?he might have been on side and after GZ was attacked by TM ,GZ went down with TM punching him and they wrestled rolling around on the ground till it ended near Marys.IMO That is what happened until I see real evidence not just what media wants to print.IMo
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He never said he was going back to his truck then. In fact he says just have the police call him. He gave the dispatcher plain directions to where his truck was and says he would meet them at the mailboxes but then he adds:

GZ: Could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?

Leaving open the possibility he was still chasing Martin.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7715220&postcount=41"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4[/ame] 911 transcript
 
francie said:
Do we know anything about Zimmerman’s ‘friend’ Joe Oliver, who speaks so extensively for him? Said he hadn’t spoken with GZ but seems he’s coming out with new info every day. Is he a lawyer or PR person or what is his occupation? Is it ok to sleuth him since he speaks for GZ? I’m ultra-suspicious that Oliver doesn’t know/didn’t know GZ personally but was hired by GZ’s savvy father-judge to handle media (like van der sloot father-judge covering up). jmo.
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IMHO... GZ needs to be speaking for himself and IF his attorney won't allow him to do just that then Joe Oliver needs to be quiet...JMHO..
 
Emeralgem said:
IMHO... GZ needs to be speaking for himself and IF his attorney won't allow him to do just that then Joe Oliver needs to be quiet...JMHO..
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I happen to love the way that it has been stated repeatedly that Zimmerman weighed 250 pounds but tonight for the first time we learn from Oliver that he really only weighed 170 pounds. This man is nothing more than a hired gun by Zimmerman and his family.



~jmo~
 
francie said:
Do we know anything about Zimmerman’s ‘friend’ Joe Oliver, who speaks so extensively for him? Said he hadn’t spoken with GZ but seems he’s coming out with new info every day. Is he a lawyer or PR person or what is his occupation? Is it ok to sleuth him since he speaks for GZ? I’m ultra-suspicious that Oliver doesn’t know/didn’t know GZ personally but was hired by GZ’s savvy father-judge to handle media (like van der sloot father-judge covering up). jmo.
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I caught the tail end of Vinnie Politan this afternoon, they were talking a/b this friend being paid to come out in defense of GZ ? don't know if its true or not.
 
Nova said:
With all due respect, you do not understand what the word "subjective" means.

ALL rational, "objective" conclusions are drawn by somebody, whether a judge, cop, DA, scientist, doctor or philosopher. That doesn't mean the conclusions are subjective. Probably cause has an objective standard, one which does not account for prejudices, flights of fancy, whims, hunches or religious visions.

If an individual uses any of those subjective tests, then he has betrayed the process (and, yes, that does happen at times). But it doesn't reveal the legal standard to be subjective; it merely shows that human beings make mistakes.
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If probable cause had objective criteria, it would be very similar to this:

In order for probable cause to exist:
1. You must be able to prove that the individual in question had a motive to commit the crime
2. You must be able to prove that the individual had the opportunity to commit the crime
3. You must be able to prove that the individual was not anywhere else when the crime took place.
4. You must be able to prove that the individual is capable, physically, of having carried out the crime.

That is not the case. Instead, probable cause is the reasonable suspicion that a crime occurred, based on articulable facts. It does not have objective criteria. It is left up to the police and prosecutor to decide what facts are reasonable enough to determine that the individual committed a crime. It is subjective, in that it potentially varies from person to person. I think you may be the one that does not understand the concepts, no offense intended.
 
Sensei said:
What exists is common sense, the timing is everything. If Zimmerman has ceased following and attempted to return to his vehicle when the dispatcher said "you don't need to do that" then HOW did he get to the area where Trayvons body was found, His 911 call was at 7:04, the 911 call marking the gunshot was recorded at 7:15, and the dispatcher told him not to follow well before the call ended, so there is no way he stopped following when the dispacher told him to or he would have been back at his car and none of this would have taken place....we know when he left the car, so there is no way he was half way down the sidewalk before that happened IMO...JMHO and stuff
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This assumes we know that he left the car when he was on the phone with dispatch. He could still be following Trayvon from his SUV. This is actually what I had assumed the entire time.
 
Adrienne37 said:
I happen to love the way that it has been stated repeatedly that Zimmerman weighed 250 pounds but tonight for the first time we learn from Oliver that he really only weighed 170 pounds. This man is nothing more than a hired gun by Zimmerman and his family.



~jmo~
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IIRC..NG pointed out that Joe O, himself, has stated GZ doesn't have an appetite and is not eating...JMHO...
 
m00c0w said:
BBM

So now it's okay that there are divisive individuals that are making it an us/them issue? :waitasec:
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is ,it is UNDERSTANDABLE for black people to make it a race issue because of the slurs in the 911 call and the obvious profiling by Zimmerman,it is ridiculous ,however for white people to turn it into a black against white issue.Zimmermann isn't even white.
 
claudicici said:
wow,so you guys are really making this a black against white issue,when it was much more arguable a white against black issue to begin with.I'm speechless.
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How is it even a White issue?He is Hispanic that is the race he chose the race of his mother.I am very shocked at the reverse racism .Even TM mother said it was not a race issue.
 
Adrienne37 said:
I happen to love the way that it has been stated repeatedly that Zimmerman weighed 250 pounds but tonight for the first time we learn from Oliver that he really only weighed 170 pounds. This man is nothing more than a hired gun by Zimmerman and his family.

~jmo~
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BBM
Do you have any links that support this statement?
 
claudicici said:
is ,it is UNDERSTANDABLE for black people to make it a race issue because of the slurs in the 911 call and the obvious profiling by Zimmerman,it is ridiculous ,however for white people to turn it into a black against white issue.Zimmermann isn't even white.
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Who has ever said it was a black against white issue? I haven't even seen "white" brought up before...

And interesting you say that...


claudicici said:
wow,so you guys are really making this a black against white issue,when it was much more arguable a white against black issue to begin with.I'm speechless.
Click to expand...
BBM
 
Why would GZ think it was odd if someone were running in the rain???
 
francie said:
Do we know anything about Zimmerman’s ‘friend’ Joe Oliver, who speaks so extensively for him? Said he hadn’t spoken with GZ but seems he’s coming out with new info every day. Is he a lawyer or PR person or what is his occupation? Is it ok to sleuth him since he speaks for GZ? I’m ultra-suspicious that Oliver doesn’t know/didn’t know GZ personally but was hired by GZ’s savvy father-judge to handle media (like van der sloot father-judge covering up). jmo.
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He seems much older than GZ...IMO

He is probably more of a family friend than GZ's personal friend, if that makes sense..
 
claudicici said:
is ,it is UNDERSTANDABLE for black people to make it a race issue because of the slurs in the 911 call and the obvious profiling by Zimmerman,it is ridiculous ,however for white people to turn it into a black against white issue.Zimmermann isn't even white.
Click to expand...

I have not heard slurs except by those who want it to be there.Blacks have turned it into a race issue something Sharpton is an old pro at.
 
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