Do you think a Stungun was used?

Are you convinced by the stungun theory?

  • Yes - I am 100% convinced that a stungun was used

    Votes: 54 18.4%

  • No - I've read the facts and I'm not convinced

    Votes: 179 60.9%

  • I have read the facts but I am undecided

    Votes: 51 17.3%

  • What stungun theory?

    Votes: 10 3.4%
  • Total voters
    294

New Posts

RUCertain said:
Thanks, guys.

Okay, I found a transcript of the full Barbara Walters interview. This is the link - http://www.acandyrose.com/03172000ramseyonbarbarawalters.htm

The following is an excerpt from that interview:

BARBARA WALTERS: Why wasn't the body exhumed?

JOHN RAMSEY: (PAUSE) Don't know why the Police didn't consider that. Uh we were asked… when this theory first surfaced about a Stun gun that if the body were exhumed… it could be proved conclusively but it had to be done fairly quickly. This was… within months of when we'd just buried JonBenet. And I, as her father, could not bring myself to do that. I had laid my child to rest. She was at peace. And that was a that decision I couldn't make.

BARBARA WALTERS: Even though it might have cleared you?

JOHN RAMSEY: It wasn't… that was not the priority. The priority was my child was at rest.


Now, I'm starting to get old, but I know I didn't dream up this other interview with Elizabeth Vargas. I'll paraphrase from my memory, but someone please let me know if this is against the rules.

Again, this is paraphrased from my memory only. The interviewer asks "why didn't you have the body exhumed?", stressing the why? JR says "we're 95% sure it was a stun gun." The interviewer looks exasperated and says "you could have been 100% sure", meaning that this would be proof of an intruder. JR kind of shrugs and says "she was at rest." (I think it was Elizabeth Vargas, but I left the name of the interviewer out in case I'm wrong.)

The only reason I want to see it again is to see JR's face when he says it.

The way I understand it, the Ramseys knew at the time of their decision to not exhume the body that proof of a stun gun being used would go a long way toward proving an intruder theory.
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I think I rennet that, but my memory has it as Katie curic?


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Honestly. I wouldn't let them dig my child up either. Shiver.


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otg said:
I think I can get us a little closer to finding your video, RUCertain. I found the following transcript from CBS's 48 Hours, but I haven't yet located the video:
TRANSCRIPT - 48 HOURS - OCTOBER 4th, 2002

(Moriarty talking with Smit and Dobersen)

Erin Moriarty: "Wouldn't that have been or the best way to know or come the closest to knowing, is if you could have exhumed the body and line up a stun gun and see if it matches those injuries?"

Lou Smit: "Sure, I believe that would have probably been the most accurate way to do it."

Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Lou Smit admits that in the months following JonBenét's death, investigators considered going to court to have her body exhumed but decided against it."

John Ramsey: "We had buried our child, she was in peace, that was just an abhorrent thought."

Erin Moriarty: "But John, that might have been the one way to know for sure, that could have resolved the whole issue, because if a stun gun was used, it was not the parents."

John Ramsey: "Certainly, and we've got people who told us who know what they are doing that with 95% medical certainty that a stun gun was used. No question."

Erin Moriarty: "But you would have known with a hundred percent certainty if you had exhumed the body, as tough as that would have been."

John Ramsey: "That's my child you're talking about, it's not a body. It's different."

​
http://www.jameson245.com/48hours2.htm
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That's it. Well, I got the interviewer completely wrong, but at least I didn't dream up the interview.

What's crazy is I still can't find the video, but don't look it up, ha. You guys have done enough already.

It was Lou Smit who believed the use of a stun gun would prove it was done by an intruder. I'm not clear on the theory. You have to be registered to buy one, unless he could have gotten it off of the black market or Ebay, or had someone buy it for him. In which case, I would think whoever sold it to him would have spoken up.

Also, in Ramsey's book, he says the video was a video catalog from a security store with an advertisement for a stun gun, not an instructional manual. And it was in Spanish.

Thanks for finding that transcript.
 
RUCertain said:
That's it. Well, I got the interviewer completely wrong, but at least I didn't dream up the interview.



What's crazy is I still can't find the video, but don't look it up, ha. You guys have done enough already.



It was Lou Smit who believed the use of a stun gun would prove it was done by an intruder. I'm not clear on the theory. You have to be registered to buy one, unless he could have gotten it off of the black market or Ebay, or had someone buy it for him. In which case, I would think whoever sold it to him would have spoken up.



Also, in Ramsey's book, he says the video was a video catalog from a security store with an advertisement for a stun gun, not an instructional manual. And it was in Spanish.



Thanks for finding that transcript.
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All small foreign factions are native Spanish speakers! ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Honestly. I wouldn't let them dig my child up either. Shiver.
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I agree. The problem though is that this person that killed your daughter may come back to do more harm to your family and your friends. A person that may still be within your inner circle. Personally if I were the Ramsey's I would leave no stone unturned in finding this individual. My family and I are not safe till he's found.
 
THE BUNK said:
I agree. The problem though is that this person that killed your daughter may come back to do more harm to your family and your friends. A person that may still be within your inner circle. Personally if I were the Ramsey's I would leave no stone unturned in finding this individual. My family and I are not safe till he's found.
Click to expand...

But remember THIS family didn't have to worry about that.

Any innocent family would do whatever it took to solve this case.
 
Bumping post from 08-26-2008, 09:05 PM

Tadpole12 said:
http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/2ndlooktranscript.htm


LOU SMIT - Suddenly it became apparent that the marks themselves, both on the back and on the face, were the same distance apart. Suddenly a little light went on and it was just like, wait a minute, and we both hit on it at the same time, that it was a stun gun.

NARRATOR - Smit looked for other murder cases where a stun gun had been used and found Gerald Boggs. These photos show the injuries made by the weapon in the Boggs case.

LOU SMIT - They compared very closely with the same marks on JonBenét. In fact the marks were on the same side of the face and it was a large mark and a small mark. The reason that happens that way is because if contact of the stun gun is placed directly against the skin, it leaves a smaller mark But if the other contact is left off the skin just a little bit, the arc of electricity dances around on the skin causing the larger mark.

NARRATOR - Smit also identified the particular weapon which he believed caused these injuries.

LOU - The stun gun that we came up with is this one and its the Air Taser stun gun. If a stun gun is used on a little girl I'm sure it would have knocked her flat and it would have allowed the killer to take her from her bed without her struggling

NARRATOR - The Boulder police rejected Smit's evidence about a stun gun. They spoke to Colorado's leading expert, pathologist Mike Dobersen, and claimed he discounted the possibilty.

MIKE DOBERSEN - That's right - and that was something of a misstatement since my real conclusion was that I couldn't, at that time, say whether this was a stun gun injury or not because we had to have a weapon to compare it to.

NARRATOR - When Smit showed him the Air Tazer stun gun, Doberson took a different position.

MIKE DOBERSEN - Lou had found a weapon with characteristics which fit as exactly as you could expect, the injuries on JonBenét's body.

NARRATOR - Since then, Mike Dobersen has conducted experiments on anaesthetized pigs. The Tazer stun gun exactly replicated the injuries on JonBenét and the distance, 3.5 centimeters, between those injuries.

MIKE DOBERSEN - My experiments, and the observations that we made and all the work that's been done, I feel that I can testify to a reasonably degree of medical certainty that these are stun gun injuries.

LOU - If a stun gun is used, it is an incredible clue left behind by the killer. It's not often that he leaves a good clue like this, but just to disregard it, would be incredibly foolish. Because if a stun gun is used on JonBenét, it points directly at an intruder. It does not point at a parent.
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DeeDee249 said:
I think a stun gun was used on JBR. I've always felt that the use of the stun gun and the parents' involvement were not mutually exclusive. Some believe that if a stun gun was used, that it would have to point to an intruder. I disagree. Anyone cruel enough to strangle a child, sexually assault her with a broken, sharp paintbrush handle, and punch out a gaping hole in her skull with a flashlight/log grabber/golf club/baseball bat would have NO problem using a stun gun, parent or not.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with the post, DeeDee.

DeeDee249 said:
To me, it indicates that the stun gun was used by a family member, as I said. The R's camp seemed to embrace the idea of a stun gun because they felt it pointed to an intruder. They felt no one would think one of the parents would ever use a stun gun on their child.
But I feel that line of thinking is flawed. A parent that can murder their child is certainly capable of using a stun gun during the crime.
Many of you are very good at pulling up R quotes- I recall JR discussing the stun gun video during an interview, and saying it was for something else, like they were THINKING of getting one, somethink like that...
He did say it was in Spanish, as if to imply that he couldn't have understood how to use it anyway because he didn't understand Spanish.
How ridiculous. I also think it's ridiculous that JR expects people to believe that he only had the video and not the actual stun gun just because it was in Spanish. I've seen BIC lighters that come with instructions in Spanish- that doesn't mean I couldn't figure out how to use it.
Click to expand...

A parent that can murder their child is certainly capable of using a stun gun during the crime.
Click to expand...

It has never crossed my mind that the Ramsey's did not own a stun gun.

Lou Smit wanted a stun gun because he lamely felt it would point to IDI. Guess he didn't see the family the way we do.



LOU - The stun gun that we came up with is this one and its the Air Taser stun gun. If a stun gun is used on a little girl I'm sure it would have knocked her flat and it would have allowed the killer to take her from her bed without her struggling

NARRATOR - The Boulder police rejected Smit's evidence about a stun gun. They spoke to Colorado's leading expert, pathologist Mike Dobersen, and claimed he discounted the possibility.

MIKE DOBERSEN - That's right - and that was something of a misstatement since my real conclusion was that I couldn't, at that time, say whether this was a stun gun injury or not because we had to have a weapon to compare it to.

NARRATOR - When Smit showed him the Air Tazer stun gun, Doberson took a different position.

MIKE DOBERSEN - Lou had found a weapon with characteristics which fit as exactly as you could expect, the injuries on JonBenét's body.
Click to expand...
 
BlueCrab originally posted on 01-09-2006, 06:53 AM

BlueCrab said:
IrishMist,

Because of numerous variables, there are no two stungun burns that look alike.

These variables include:

o The length of time the trigger is held after contact with the skin is made (usually less than one second to as much as 5 or 10 seconds in extreme cases -- the longer the trigger is held the worse is the electrical burn);

o The part of the body being stunned (the skin is tough in some areas, such as the palm, and soft in other areas, such as the face);

o The force in which the twin electrodes are pressed against the skin (if jammed hard enough, the small steel electrodes can cause abrasions or contusions in conjunction with the electrical burns);

o The angle in which the electrodes contact the body (if at an acute angle, one electrode can leave a serious burn mark while the twin electrode may leave a barely visible mark);

o The thickness of the clothing worn by the victim (this insulating effect can change the appearance of the burn);

o The lack of the electrodes concentrating in one spot on the skin (most victims do not willingly stay still while being stungunned, and will fight and squirm to avoid the shocks, thus diluting the burns over a larger area on the skin, perhaps to the point of not being recognizable as stun gun burns).


JonBenet's stungun injury on the right cheek could be a combination of any of the above. Her facial injury resembles the stungun injury of murder victim Gerald Boggs, who had a proven stungun burn to the same part of his face.

BlueCrab
Click to expand...

The angle in which the electrodes contact the body (if at an acute angle, one electrode can leave a serious burn mark while the twin electrode may leave a barely visible mark)
Click to expand...

This could answer for the large abrasion on the right cheek.
The thickness of the clothing worn by the victim (this insulating effect can change the appearance of the burn)
Click to expand...

This may explain that the duct tape served as an insulator against the twin marks on the right cheek.

Did the autopsy describe melted duct tape adhesive adhering to her face?


BlueCrab said:
Jayelles,

To recap this:

The centerlines of the rectangular twin metal electrodes on the stun gun are, of course, a given. So we know the distance between them.

Finding the centerlines of the twin rectangular injuries on JonBenet, so we can measure the distance between THEM, is the problem we're discussing. As you know, serious burn injuries grow outward in size after being inflicted, but there's no reason to believe they don't grow in size proportionately. Therefore, the centerline of the original injury should be in the middle or very near the middle of the large red, almost round, burn mark. As you yourself have admitted, trying to measure from the borders of the injuries would be a problem, because where do the borders end? We must measure from the centerlines.

Using the coroner's rulers in the autopsy photos to scale from, I just re-measured everything. I get 3.5 cm between the centerlines of the electrodes on the stun gun and 3.5 cm between the centerlines of the marks on JonBenet.

IOW, the twin marks on JonBenet match the twin electrodes of the stun gun; and this means JonBenet was likely stungunned.

BlueCrab
Click to expand...


I agree that Cutter missed the mark when he measured. He took the inside edge to inside edge measurement of the stun gun marks when it required a centerline to centerline measurement. [I got 3.6 cm]
 
Never heard of a stun gun used.
 
For those who don't want to see, close your eyes for a second and scroll. The not so bad pics are at the end.

Stun guns and tasers are called "electronic weapons." They are handheld weapons that use electricity to stun a person. The electricity causes uncontrollable muscle contractions. After being stunned with electricity, the person usually falls to the ground.

These weapons are less likely to cause death or injury than other weapons, such as handguns. But stun guns and tasers can cause serious medical problems, such as irregular heartbeats (arrhythmias). Others types of injuries include burns...

http://cancer.dartmouth.edu/pf/health_encyclopedia/sig254559
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MJ+2002+spider+bite+6+stun+gun+jbr.jpg


523c811d77c1c.image.jpg
070311_hass_stunmarks.jpg



ht_taser_wounds_ll_121102_wblog.jpg
north-taser-marks.jpg



article-2603026-1D0A12DA00000578-812_306x423.jpg
IMG_0969.JPG



http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetbackmarks.jpg

omo
 
DeDee said:
BlueCrab originally posted on 01-09-2006, 06:53 AM





This could answer for the large abrasion on the right cheek.


This may explain that the duct tape served as an insulator against the twin marks on the right cheek.

Did the autopsy describe melted duct tape adhesive adhering to her face?





I agree that Cutter missed the mark when he measured. He took the inside edge to inside edge measurement of the stun gun marks when it required a centerline to centerline measurement. [I got 3.6 cm]
Click to expand...
In his deposition Smit shows a photograph of the victim that was taken while the body was still in the house. There is a white flake of “something” that seems to be stuck to the victim’s face.

Q. What significance, if any, would the fact that that stun gun mark on the right side of her face, the fact that it was made through the duct tape, what significance, if any, would that have to the white flake found on that mark from the photo taken of her body at the house?

A. I believe that that small piece of white material came from the duct tape, from the back of the duct tape, or through something else. I have seen no lab report on that. But that piece adhering right to that particular area shows me that one contact of the stun gun was in contact, perhaps with that duct tape when it was applied.
...

AK
 
Anti-K, I sure will agree with you on that assessment. Some posters think the tape was pre-used. I think it was put on and taken off several times and certainly the white piece on her face could have come from the tape's adhesive backing.

I'll offer what significance it holds. It hurt like a bomb had exploded on that child's face along her jawbone. The child was alive when she was stunned. It may have caused the brain to move forward, then back, as described in AR.

As with most nonlethal weapons, "good targets are the groin, stomach, solar plexus, throat, the arm, the shin, hip bone, collarbone, ankle, and kneecap.

Bones are a good target because nerves sit close to the surface."

The stuns hurt this baby girl; especially, where it left the large abrasion on her right cheek. It was right on her face along her jawbone.

She was either not wearing the white Gap shirt or it was pulled up when she was stunned on the back since her clothing did not display evidence of stunning.

Her long johns must have been pulled or rolled up or she wasn't wearing them because there was no report of stun damage to them. Why was she lightly stunned on the back of her leg 4" above her ankle? Were they attempting to make her stop running away?

OMO
 
I don't believe the duct tape had a white side. It was black on one side, silver or gray on the other.
 
DeeDee249 said:
I don't believe the duct tape had a white side. It was black on one side, silver or gray on the other.
Click to expand...

I haven't seen the pic(s?) showing this "white particle" ( sorry I can't recall what it's been referred to), I just don't get how something like that wouldn't have been noted in the AR? Wouldn't that be listed?

Is it possible that this is only showing in 1 photo, and it's simply some sort of weird angle, or lighting???

It just doesn't make sense to me that is not in the AR??? It seems that something like that would have been considered important from an evidence perspective.

Eta: or was it noted, and I just don't realize it??? :blushing:
 
I definitely don't believe a stun gun was used. Not only because the marks don't line up at all, but perhaps more importantly for me b/c her reaction to being subjected to such a weapon would have woken the entire household.

Of course, one could argue that it was done after she was unconscious, but that doesn't make sense either. Given how unresponsive she would have been after the head bash, what purpose then would inflicting her with 1000s of volts of electricity serve?
 
Tawny said:
There is no evidence a stun gun was used. Even the manufacturer says the marks do not match the device.
Click to expand...

I was just going to post this...Please get out of my head...LOL

I would think the manufacturer would know if the marks match the device or not.

JMO
 
in kolar's book the marks match the joiners of B's traintracks, there are pics were he shows the experiments conducted w the stun guns and the results did not match the marks on JB




lupus est homini *advertiser censored*, non *advertiser censored*, non quom qualis sit novit
 
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