NC - Zahra Clare Baker, 10, Hickory, 9 Oct. 2010 #34

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agathawannabe said:
Ya know.. This is how I felt about EB initially.. had her pinned as the penultimate narcissicist (which she may be).

But after studying her social network stuff pretty hard.. my armchair diagnosis would be Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) primarily -- (sorry, IIRC there's a newer updated clinical name for it - just can't remember what it is).

I think there is one person in this world she would cover up for. It ain't Adam -- and it's not exactly herself, either.

For example.. take a look at her (now deleted) MySpace profile..

http://s857.photobucket.com/albums/...ew&current=Screenshot2010-10-17at123709PM.png

Notice how under the "About Me" heading at the top of the page, she describes the "one true love" she's ever had as being the person who "made me what I am today"... then invites the reader to request chat to learn more.

Now, note how under the "Who I'd like to meet" heading at the bottom of the page she talks about how she hoped and dreamed of finding her "soul-mate" - and she's found him.

She is talking about two different men here.

Adam is her "soul-mate" -- but NOT the "one true love" she's ever had (that's someone else).

Taking the phrase "made me what I am today" a step farther.. if EB has BPD, it is highly likely that she's lost touch with herself to a point of having become dependent on this "one true love" fellow to define her personality for her.

So, if we theorize for a moment, that the "one true love" may have been an accomplice in disposing of Zahra's body... then turn logic on its head and imagine that it now becomes a selfish (narcissistic act) for her NOT to rat this person out. As her own personality is tied to this person's direction/approval, it almost becomes a matter of mental/emotional self-preservation to refuse to betray the person. Does that make sense? Clinical psych's care to weigh in?
Click to expand...

Alert - MY OPINION ONLY - I see where you are going, but when you look back at the volume of bad behavior and multiple relationships, and inability to socially conform in her adult REAL life and her dependency to her "virtual" life, the term Sociopathic Narcissist looks like her to a "T". If she is covering for someone, it is in the disposal only. IMO But, blood is thicker than water, if you get my drift.
 
Mountain_Kat said:
You can count my husband and I among them. We could offer a child so much...stable home, parents who would love them, care for them, be there for them every step of the way, a homelife that is orderly, peaceful, filled with compassion, fun and laughter. So why don't we adopt? We simply can't afford it. Yet EB and her ilk are given these precious children on a silver platter, and they smack god right in the face for that gift. It's disheartening, and it's infuriating, and it's just plain WRONG.

(end of rant)
Click to expand...

(((hugs))))
 
passionflower said:
Won't EB get her help with drug withdrawal in jail?
and she probably will gain all that weight back with jail house food.
Click to expand...

Yes, depending what she is addicted to, she would get medical help. But, I bet it took her a long time to admit to that. Heavy drug use would open her up to a whole bunch of vulnerability if she was indeed going through withdrawal. Like, singing like a canary within a week to get her fix? IMO ONLY
 
Personally I don't see EB as the type to cover for anyone, which leads me to think she has done this one her own ...... unless someone owes her big time!
 
NCMOM said:
Alert - MY OPINION ONLY - I see where you are going, but when you look back at the volume of bad behavior and multiple relationships, and inability to socially conform in her adult REAL life and her dependency to her "virtual" life, the term Sociopathic Narcissist looks like her to a "T". If she is covering for someone, it is in the disposal only. IMO But, blood is thicker than water, if you get my drift.
Click to expand...

But she's alienated her children. Who else is there?
 
wfgodot said:
On NCMEC (again), Z is listed at 5'0 and 55 pounds. Does anyone have a link for the 85 pounds? I remember seeing it someplace.*

http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...NCMC&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_US&searchLang=en_US

*here's one, actually:
http://www.foxcharlotte.com/news/to...fternoon-In-Zahra-Baker-Search-105348058.html
Click to expand...

I don't think AB and EB had any idea how much Zahra weighed. And there wouldn't be any recent independent records if she hadn't been to the doctors. So when they had to give a basic description to the police when they reported her missing, they could probably guess her height more accurately than weight.

It does seem odd that there is a 20-lb difference in the description on different sources. Maybe one is based on AB's statement to the police and one based on EB's statement.

Just to add my 2 cents, my 11-year-old son is 63 lbs. He is small for a boy his age, but not abnormally so. I see a lot of girls that age at his school and she looks like she'd be right in the normal range.
 
I agree with you completely. Sometimes they just displace themselves also and only associate certain feelings with certain people. Maybe if there was an accomplice then she gives that information up then the accomplice in her mind wont want her anymore. And that is the last thing that she needs. I believe that the "one true love" was not AB either. I believe that she would have given up AB just to be with 'the one true love" and if all was going right she was leaving AB for someone else anyway. Maybe that is who she was talking to the "one true love" and if she gives him away in her mind she will be stuck with AB and the memory of what she could have had. I hate to say this but in her mind she may believe that there will be something for them after this. At this point she may have had a horrible personality disorder and it had been there for years and it finally spiraled out of control and culminated in the abuse and death of sweet little Zahra. She may even now not really know exactly what she did...if she has a mental disorder and did drugs too, that is a huge recipe for disaster and memory malfunction.

I want to make it 110% clear that IMHO she is guilty of harming Zahra and doing so much more...I was just adding to a post that I knew a little bit about. And with that being said I really hope that they nail her and the person or persons that helped her do the despicable things to Zahra that we all think she did. She will be dealt with within the legal system and her God will judge her also. IMOO :twocents:


agathawannabe said:
Ya know.. This is how I felt about EB initially.. had her pinned as the penultimate narcissicist (which she may be).

But after studying her social network stuff pretty hard.. my armchair diagnosis would be Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) primarily -- (sorry, IIRC there's a newer updated clinical name for it - just can't remember what it is).

I think there is one person in this world she would cover up for. It ain't Adam -- and it's not exactly herself, either.

For example.. take a look at her (now deleted) MySpace profile..

http://s857.photobucket.com/albums/...ew&current=Screenshot2010-10-17at123709PM.png

Notice how under the "About Me" heading at the top of the page, she describes the "one true love" she's ever had as being the person who "made me what I am today"... then invites the reader to request chat to learn more.

Now, note how under the "Who I'd like to meet" heading at the bottom of the page she talks about how she hoped and dreamed of finding her "soul-mate" - and she's found him.

She is talking about two different men here.

Adam is her "soul-mate" -- but NOT the "one true love" she's ever had (that's someone else).

Taking the phrase "made me what I am today" a step farther.. if EB has BPD, it is highly likely that she's lost touch with herself to a point of having become dependent on this "one true love" fellow to define her personality for her.

So, if we theorize for a moment, that the "one true love" may have been an accomplice in disposing of Zahra's body... then turn logic on its head and imagine that it now becomes a selfish (narcissistic act) for her NOT to rat this person out. As her own personality is tied to this person's direction/approval, it almost becomes a matter of mental/emotional self-preservation to refuse to betray the person. Does that make sense? Clinical psych's care to weigh in?
Click to expand...
 
NCMOM said:
Yes, depending what she is addicted to, she would get medical help. But, I bet it took her a long time to admit to that. Heavy drug use would open her up to a whole bunch of vulnerability if she was indeed going through withdrawal. Like, singing like a canary within a week to get her fix? IMO ONLY
Click to expand...

Didnt le find drug para. in one of the vehicles? If it was crystal meth she(they) are doing then she sang way before a week,
and yes she would get help with the withdrawal symptoms in jail.
I think ab did c meth some time ago,but got off of it a few months ago,he may be joneson(spelling) ,MOO, is that all the weight lost is due to meth use.
MOO
 
Beagle said:
Personally I don't see EB as the type to cover for anyone, which leads me to think she has done this one her own ...... unless someone owes her big time!
Click to expand...

I don't think she'd "cover" for someone. But I do think she might decide not to rat someone out, if she had nothing to gain by doing so.
 
I look at EB to rat out everyone to make herself look good..........she didn't do anything in her mind and is not guilty.
I see her throwing hubby under the bus asap...........
 
Possibilites;

a) EB alone, murder and disposal (not possible, AB knew, too many inconsistencies)
b) EB & AB, AB more involved in disposal than actual murder (very likely)
c) EB & AB, and at least one other person close to EB (possible, especially in discussion / planning disposal, and perhaps discovering a missing Zahra was murdered way before LE was called in)
d) EB & at least one other person close to EB, no Adam until after disposal (not likely, AB would have noticed mattress comings and goings, missing Zahra, and he wouldn't cover up).

I'm between b) and c) here.....I think another person is possible, but less likely than I think it is that it was just EB and AB.

On the third party starting to ask questions of AB and EB about the whereabouts of Zahra and getting too close to the truth, thus provoking the 'kidnapping story' and 911 call, I think that is very likely.
 
sunsetbeach said:
You are so RIGHT! Guilt can eat away at a person like no other.
It doesn't matter what it is (murder, hatefulness, jealousy for no reason, pure-d ol guilt for anything you may have done to a stranger or to someone you love) if you have any conscious what so ever your actions will haunt you if you have done something bad.
Click to expand...

Psychopaths do not have a conscience.

I posted this before but in case some people have not seen it....does it remind you of anyone described in this case? :)

Psychopathy, as measured on the PCL-R, is negatively correlated with all DSM-IV Axis I disorders except substance abuse disorders. Psychopathy is most strongly correlated with DSM-IV antisocial personality disorder.

Factor1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release
Traits not correlated with either factor

Promiscuous sexual behavior
Many short-term marital relationships
Criminal versatility
 
Mountain_Kat said:
I don't think she'd "cover" for someone. But I do think she might decide not to rat someone out, if she had nothing to gain by doing so.
Click to expand...

My opinion of AB and EB covering for each other is exactly how I feel about Ron and Misty covering for the other.

I don't believe any of the parties mentioned would bypass an opportunity to better their position if they had the ability to do so. And much like the Cumming's case the fathers reaction to stepmom allegedly harming their child seems completely insincere and inappropriate to me.

Kyron's father has reacted like a man that think his wife harmed his child.

I know there is no one size fits all, and I can accept alot of flavors of "appropriate", but I think AB and EB are only covering for themselves. They are inherently selfish. They have left a wake of people behind them that they have injured from financial losses, to threats and drama, and clear evidence that she at a minimum was abusing this child and he at a minimum was fully aware of it.

Neither of them changed overnight and are putting the other one ahead of themselves IMO. They are in this up to their eyeballs together.

imo of course
 
Mountain_Kat said:
You can count my husband and I among them. We could offer a child so much...stable home, parents who would love them, care for them, be there for them every step of the way, a homelife that is orderly, peaceful, filled with compassion, fun and laughter. So why don't we adopt? We simply can't afford it. Yet EB and her ilk are given these precious children on a silver platter, and they smack god right in the face for that gift. It's disheartening, and it's infuriating, and it's just plain WRONG.

(end of rant)
Click to expand...
You sound like you would be excellent parents and I'm sorry it hasn't happened for you (yet).


Would being a foster parent be an option you'd consider?

It doesn't require any legal expense. When the state takes child into its custody, the ultimate goal is to reunite the biological family. Even when a biological parent is clearly unfit, it's a long process for the state to sever parental rights. So many children are in the foster care system for years. By the time they are legally free for adoption, their chances of finding a permanent family are less. The older the child is, the harder it is for them to be placed with an adoptive family. And some states have programs to help cover the adoption expenses for older children or those who are more difficult to place.

I share your empathy for Zahra and others who are unfortunate enough to be in similar environments.
 
I fully agree, impatientredhead, the first news I caught about this case was AB saying that he thought that EB could be involved.

I am wondering if Zahra could have been in that fire on the morning of 10/9. Does anyone know how much a body would burn up? It's just so coincidental. I suppose they also could have been burning evidence.

If my memory serves me, it would take a hot, hot fire to literally creamate somebody and I think there would still be bone fragments remaining.... but maybe someone here knows.

Re: mental health diagnosis, so many of them blend together and are in the same family, and add in the drug usage and you have yourself a very inaccurate diagnosis from the start. I agree that she has these tendencies, but who knows who she really is behind the mask of drug abuse.
 
agathawannabe said:
Ya know.. This is how I felt about EB initially.. had her pinned as the penultimate narcissicist (which she may be).

But after studying her social network stuff pretty hard.. my armchair diagnosis would be Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) primarily -- (sorry, IIRC there's a newer updated clinical name for it - just can't remember what it is).

I think there is one person in this world she would cover up for. It ain't Adam -- and it's not exactly herself, either.

For example.. take a look at her (now deleted) MySpace profile..

http://s857.photobucket.com/albums/...ew&current=Screenshot2010-10-17at123709PM.png

Notice how under the "About Me" heading at the top of the page, she describes the "one true love" she's ever had as being the person who "made me what I am today"... then invites the reader to request chat to learn more.

Now, note how under the "Who I'd like to meet" heading at the bottom of the page she talks about how she hoped and dreamed of finding her "soul-mate" - and she's found him.

She is talking about two different men here.

Adam is her "soul-mate" -- but NOT the "one true love" she's ever had (that's someone else).

Taking the phrase "made me what I am today" a step farther.. if EB has BPD, it is highly likely that she's lost touch with herself to a point of having become dependent on this "one true love" fellow to define her personality for her.

So, if we theorize for a moment, that the "one true love" may have been an accomplice in disposing of Zahra's body... then turn logic on its head and imagine that it now becomes a selfish (narcissistic act) for her NOT to rat this person out. As her own personality is tied to this person's direction/approval, it almost becomes a matter of mental/emotional self-preservation to refuse to betray the person. Does that make sense? Clinical psych's care to weigh in?
Click to expand...

How can you tell she is talking about two different people? Perhaps she does mean that AB is her one true love, who made her what she is today?
 
Yes, because it appears one had virtually no contact with her and the other two were willing to be in court to request that she not be freed.

That speaks volumes to me! JMO!
 
This is very helpful info, Violet. Thanks!

Just to clarify something about my earlier post: when I mention BPD -- it wouldn't necessarily be an exclusive diagnosis, if she had/has it. She certainly looks (acts) like a psychopath, too. She might fit under a host of dx codes.


Violet_Foxglove said:
Psychopaths do not have a conscience.

I posted this before but in case some people have not seen it....does it remind you of anyone described in this case? :)

Psychopathy, as measured on the PCL-R, is negatively correlated with all DSM-IV Axis I disorders except substance abuse disorders. Psychopathy is most strongly correlated with DSM-IV antisocial personality disorder.

Factor1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release
Traits not correlated with either factor

Promiscuous sexual behavior
Many short-term marital relationships
Criminal versatility
Click to expand...
 
Violet_Foxglove said:
Psychopaths do not have a conscience.

I posted this before but in case some people have not seen it....does it remind you of anyone described in this case? :)

Psychopathy, as measured on the PCL-R, is negatively correlated with all DSM-IV Axis I disorders except substance abuse disorders. Psychopathy is most strongly correlated with DSM-IV antisocial personality disorder.

Factor1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release
Traits not correlated with either factor

Promiscuous sexual behavior
Many short-term marital relationships
Criminal versatility
Click to expand...

Exactly, the only thing that is eating at this woman is that she is in jail and taking all the blame.
 
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