GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #2

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Sgt Jones said:
The comments section here throws up some interesting points:

http://blogs.news.sky.com/lifeofcrime/Post:23920168-3a62-483c-a8bd-fa05742a0856
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Wow, it certainly does:

HEre is a quote from one of the posts:

""morningsunPosted by: morningsun on January 7, 2011 11:19 AM

As the police have now concluded that Joanna died in the flat it rules out a stranger as no signs of struggle or break-in took place.

Therefore the perpetrator was already in the flat or they let themselves in or Joanna invited them in. If she was expecting a guest that evening I think she would have probably told her best friend whom she had a 15 minute conversation with on her way home. Also, wouldn't you mention it to your partner if he was going to be away that night/wkend.

If a male friend turned up unexpectedly had his advances rejected by Joanna and he attacked her then surely she would have put up some kind of fight. Wouldn't there be evidence of skin under finger nails or bruising on her hands arms etc.

If none of this exisited then it had to be someone Joanna was comfortable enough with to allow into her personal intimate space without fear of attack or assualt.""
 
LadyL said:
[bbm]

and there's yet one more reason for me to suspect him ...

I agree with previous posters who've said that his behaviour strikes them as odd ...

I get really creeped out looking at his pic
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I think the link to the first footage I saw of G.R is

http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist/ITN/2010/12/22/T22121033/?v=0&a=1

You have to scroll down to clip number 7 to see it in full...he seems to register that the camera is on him and well....maybe I am wrong and really hope I am but this does look rather like a performance.
 
Sgt Jones said:
Possible scenario:

Jo arrives home - she's got the flat to herself for the weekend and is looking forward to some "me" time. (Anyone else know what I mean?)

She decides to leave drinks early so she can get home, have a nice, hot, relaxing bubble bath, pizza, cider and a film.

She gets home, takes off shoes, coat, dumps bag.

Pours herself a glass of cider - and drinks some - she intends to relax in her bubble bath with the cider. The pizza will be cooked after her bath.

On way to run the bath, she starts to undress starting with her sock.

She takes one off and then finds an intruder (could be CJ the snooping landlord) hiding behind the shower curtains (not sure ir they have shower / shower curtains.)

Jo is shocked, horrifed and frightened.

The perp is unable to calm her. Jo backs away from the bathroom screaming. A struggle ensues and the pizza is damaged.

Trying to defend herself, Jo puts up her hands which still contain her sock...

To silence her, the sock is grabbed by the perp and is used to strangle Jo.
Click to expand...
Possible.
 
Slewth said:
What was significant about the weather on the night of Fri 17th was not the amount of snow that actually fell (2” perhaps), but the amount of snow that was FORECAST to fall (a lot more, I believe – perhaps 6”). The Met Office were routinely pessimistic in their forecasts at this time.

The atrocious weather was big news at the time, and something of which a murderer in the flat, with a dead body on his hands, would have been acutely aware.

Because having decided to move the body in the dead of night, he’d have seen the snow start to fall, and become extremely concerned about getting caught in it. It wouldn’t do to hit a lamppost with a corpse in the passenger seat, would it? Or get stuck in a snowdrift in Longwood Lane?

No, he got that body out pdq – he certainly didn’t wait until Sunday, as some have suggested.
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Good thoughts. (And thanks, now I'm sure my next sleeping nightmare will involve hitting a lamppost while I am for some reason driving around with a corpse in my passenger seat, lol.) But what if he (they) (her) did keep Jo, or Jo's body, for a day or two - the same logic would apply to the snowfall on the 20th when another 4" were forecast (but only about 2" fell). The perp(s) may have figured, gotta move quick, was lucky last time. Or let's say the 4x4 for which they're searching is indeed involved - snowfall measurements would then be more relative to the vehicle being driven, i.e. not terribly risky given the right one.
 
Luna15 said:
Interesting post.

Add to the questionable state of their relationship; this is the first time she has ever stayed in the flat on her own!! A basement flat with, shall we say, some odd characters for neighbours, they’ve only been in town a couple of months, and you don’t want to know that she is ok?
Another reason why I find it hard to theorise that these known neighbours could have been involved; they have lived in the area for many, many years, I feel sure that they would have known a more discreet/remote spot to have left a body, I don’t think one of them would risk parking up in Longland (what a narrow street!!!) Greg on the other hand had only lived there for a couple of months, and this road leads to the motorway he would have needed to travel to Sheffield.

I know this might be very unpopular, but has anyone considered ‘erotic asphyxiation’ – perhaps they were engaged in some ‘fun’ and she died, and he has covered it up to spare her (and his) embarrassment? How you gonna tell the in laws that! It really isn’t my intention to offend, but I don’t think it can be ruled out, can it? What with the police ‘not ruling out sexual motive’ but no signs of ‘sexual assault’

I will edit the above if it really offends.
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Think this is something the L/E would certainly have considered and it is a good point and certainly no more offensive than any other 'theory' we might have that turns out not to be the case.
 
scottybail said:
Wow, it certainly does:

HEre is a quote from one of the posts:

""morningsunPosted by: morningsun on January 7, 2011 11:19 AM

As the police have now concluded that Joanna died in the flat it rules out a stranger as no signs of struggle or break-in took place.
Click to expand...

But police haven't concluded this at all. It is very difficult, and will be difficult, to say where the killing took place as, barring other evidence of struggle, bloodstains, vomit, etc., strangulation tends not to leave traces.

Retired deputy chief inspector Pete Kirkham quote here:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased UK - Joanna Yeates, Clifton, Bristol, 25 December 2010 #2
 
Sgt Jones said:
Good points.

I think there is something very odd about the neighbours inc CJ and I'm not basing it on looks.

Maybe CJ did see Jo with the "snow mates" but they later told him to retract his story... Maybe they have something on him and told him to change what he saw, hence his conflicting story.

Whether he saw Jo with people on the night is still unclear - the police certainly haven't appealed for these people to come forward which I find very odd.

I also find the "snow mates" relationship very odd - it's not typical landlord / tenant. Maybe they are old friends but there is a 16 year age gap.

I couldn't help but look at those snow pics and think they have a "homosexual" relationship.

JMHO
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where did you see the snow pics. please......


i have a feeling that house is and has been over the years a bit like pandora's box....too much nastiness around; also strange ...gay ....men; the flat the scene of a sexual grooming....must have been know to ll as he worked with paedophile owner at clifton college; the desire to present himself to neighbours as eccentric but ultimately respectable member of the community...
i already mentioned his membership of health club some way out of the area....poseur...yet portrayed himself as totally cerebral whilst secretly going to gym/pool.....look at rough trade.....

sorry no question marks and capitals as wrist badly smashed...

i wd be interested to know of life of neighbour...one with 4by4....he too a little strange

in all, a bit like a cross between enid blyton and agatha christie books.....

anyone agree...

also son and girlfriend living just 2 doors away in flat overlooking playing fields of clifton college....

they have a gym, by the way, with a pool ...as son bought this membership for xmas present for girlfriend...
why did chris jefferies go all the way out to filton to swim/exercise....

points west...bbc bristol programme...tonight concentrating on the journey home from pub in park street to clifton flat, via waitrose in triangle; tesco and boose store in clifton village...

i have a strong feeling the answer lies in the house and environs....otherwise why move body....
fascinating....but so sad for her to lose life so young and violently...and for parents..
 
scottybail said:
Wow, it certainly does:

HEre is a quote from one of the posts:

""morningsunPosted by: morningsun on January 7, 2011 11:19 AM

As the police have now concluded that Joanna died in the flat it rules out a stranger as no signs of struggle or break-in took place.

Therefore the perpetrator was already in the flat or they let themselves in or Joanna invited them in. If she was expecting a guest that evening I think she would have probably told her best friend whom she had a 15 minute conversation with on her way home. Also, wouldn't you mention it to your partner if he was going to be away that night/wkend.

If a male friend turned up unexpectedly had his advances rejected by Joanna and he attacked her then surely she would have put up some kind of fight. Wouldn't there be evidence of skin under finger nails or bruising on her hands arms etc.

If none of this exisited then it had to be someone Joanna was comfortable enough with to allow into her personal intimate space without fear of attack or assualt.""
Click to expand...
Good point but I have never believed that this was premeditated...have always felt that poor Jo was strangled simply to keep her quiet the, whoever took her life went into 'panic mode'. If her body was indeed placed by the roadside on Friday night then I think we can categorically discount G/R as I don't think he would want her body found until after his return.....especially if he had all her belongings in his vehicle. If this was premeditated then I do not understand why her body was left where it was...where anyone could have seen the perp. or his vehicle.
 
If the police have concluded she died in the flat then my money is on the boyfriend. I have seen too many boyfriends and husbands cry and make appeals only to end up before the beak a few months later.
 
Slewth said:
What was significant about the weather on the night of Fri 17th was not the amount of snow that actually fell (2” perhaps), but the amount of snow that was FORECAST to fall (a lot more, I believe – perhaps 6”). The Met Office were routinely pessimistic in their forecasts at this time.

The atrocious weather was big news at the time, and something of which a murderer in the flat, with a dead body on his hands, would have been acutely aware.

Because having decided to move the body in the dead of night, he’d have seen the snow start to fall, and become extremely concerned about getting caught in it. It wouldn’t do to hit a lamppost with a corpse in the passenger seat, would it? Or get stuck in a snowdrift in Longwood Lane?

No, he got that body out pdq – he certainly didn’t wait until Sunday, as some have suggested.
Click to expand...

Equally, we've seen the pictures of the lane. How narrow is that road? There's hardly the space for a person to lie down on the verge. YEs it snowed, but the snow wouldn't have covered the body like a taboggan run.

In fact, 18 inches of snow would have been needed, perhaps 12. A body is irregular in shape. People walk their dogs even in snow. A dog wouldn't miss a dead body even if it was frozen.

It does seem inclrasingly likely that she was placed there.
 
Slewth said:
What was significant about the weather on the night of Fri 17th was not the amount of snow that actually fell (2” perhaps), but the amount of snow that was FORECAST to fall (a lot more, I believe – perhaps 6”). The Met Office were routinely pessimistic in their forecasts at this time.

The atrocious weather was big news at the time, and something of which a murderer in the flat, with a dead body on his hands, would have been acutely aware.

Because having decided to move the body in the dead of night, he’d have seen the snow start to fall, and become extremely concerned about getting caught in it. It wouldn’t do to hit a lamppost with a corpse in the passenger seat, would it? Or get stuck in a snowdrift in Longwood Lane?

No, he got that body out pdq – he certainly didn’t wait until Sunday, as some have suggested.
Click to expand...
Although only 2" of snow may have fallen.....you could end up with 6 - 8" in places where it has drifted. We only had a few inches of snow....but it was up past my ankles in places, where it had drifted. This usually happens up against hedges, walls, ditches where the wind whips it up against the first obstacle.
 
naturally suspicious said:
where did you see the snow pics. please......


i have a feeling that house is and has been over the years a bit like pandora's box....too much nastiness around; also strange ...gay ....men; the flat the scene of a sexual grooming....must have been know to ll as he worked with paedophile owner at clifton college; the desire to present himself to neighbours as eccentric but ultimately respectable member of the community...
i already mentioned his membership of health club some way out of the area....poseur...yet portrayed himself as totally cerebral whilst secretly going to gym/pool.....look at rough trade.....

sorry no question marks and capitals as wrist badly smashed...

i wd be interested to know of life of neighbour...one with 4by4....he too a little strange

in all, a bit like a cross between enid blyton and agatha christie books.....

anyone agree...

also son and girlfriend living just 2 doors away in flat overlooking playing fields of clifton college....

they have a gym, by the way, with a pool ...as son bought this membership for xmas present for girlfriend...
why did chris jefferies go all the way out to filton to swim/exercise....

points west...bbc bristol programme...tonight concentrating on the journey home from pub in park street to clifton flat, via waitrose in triangle; tesco and boose store in clifton village...

i have a strong feeling the answer lies in the house and environs....otherwise why move body....
fascinating....but so sad for her to lose life so young and violently...and for parents..
Click to expand...
LL bought Jo's flat from the paedophile when he went to prison. This has been mentioned many times after LL was arrested.
 
Thanks wfgodot. I agree, it's not so great a risk for a 4x4, but I think one’s perception of risk changes when the stakes are high. Rather like investment: I’ll put £100 into almost anything, I’ll pooh-pooh the risk; but £10,000, I’ll start to worry about the risk. And having just committed murder, the stakes were just about as high as you could get. Maybe he drives a snow plough - the one that scooped up the sock!
 
I am new to this forum, very impressed by a lot of the posts on here. Now I'll lower the standard by raising some points that have probably been raised and answered before, but I'm not as up to speed with all the details as most of you clearly are.

Firstly, what did Jo buy in Waitrose? What surprises me is that Jo could have bought all the stuff she is known to have bought on her way home in Waitrose (branding apart).

This leads me to speculate that just after she left Waitrose she was contacted by someone on her phone who she arranged to meet at her flat (or maybe she contacted them)- at that point she decided to buy a pizza and the bottles of cider.As a mere man, that's the only way her shopping pattern makes sense, but it would help in making sense of it to know what she bought in Waitrose.

Like many others, I find it strange that GR left the flat for Sheffield so soon before Jo got home. For a close (we are told) couple, who had only been together for a few months, they don't seem to have communicated very much- but maybe I'm just from the wrong generation?

The whole body in the snow thing puzzles me. How long could a body lie on a roadside verge in such shallow snow, without dog walkers coming across it? Dog walkers are creatures of habit- they sort of have to be! Is it known whether the dog walkers who discovered the body had walked that route in the preceding days? And this wasn't an isolated spot really, you would only leave a body on a roadside like that if a) you had no choice or b) you wanted it to be found. The difficult part for the killer(s) was getting Jo into their car, either dead or alive. Once they achieved that, they could have basically taken her anywhere. All very strange.

The apparent lack of evidence of any direct sexual assault must point strongly to a crime of passion, that passion being anger or jealousy, I would suggest. This all points to someone Jo was, or had recently been, intimate with. Unless we are dealing with a lunatic (is that word still permitted?), in which case motive becomes irrelevant, I suppose.

Just my first thoughts, folks, so be gentle with me!
 
I can see the strength of the arguments against the bf - by far the best placed person to strangle anyone and so easy to find a motive for him. Definitely the first person the police would suspect, even if they are only of mediocre intelligence as some think.

But it won't do. Mobile phone, petrol, motorway cctv etc either corroborate the bf's story or they don't. The police haven't explicitly said which it is and we don't know the details, but surely if they had not corroborated it, they would not have arrested CJ.

Even allowing for the long shots involving accomplices, I really think that the police must know that it can't have been Greg.

As for the behavioural arguments against him, I remain very sceptical. A person placed in a very extraordinary situation is liable to follow stereotyped behaviour patterns. He is not sure what is expected of him. Let him blink or put his hands in the wrong position if he wants to - it doesn't prove anything.

And even if he has something that makes him nervous or that he wishes to hide, that fact does not have to be his own personal guilt. It may be, for instance, the fact that he and Joanna may have parted on bad terms, or conceivably he might, on his return, have discovered some evidence of infidelity on Joanna's part which he destroyed - sanitising the scene of the crime before forensic investigation.

So I am opposed to the Greg solution, but also find the outsider theory hard to admit. And I am not sure so far that the police have made any mistakes whatsoever...except perhaps using taxpayer money to search through 293 tons of domestic refuse!
 
wfgodot said:
True, though I'm thinking there were lessons learned there.
Click to expand...

The police didn't learn their lessons after Timonthy Evans, the Birmingham 6, the Guildford 4, The Bridgewater 4. So they won't have learnt it after Colin Stagg, I don't think.

Jeremy Bamber is probably innocent too...
 
mikeymot said:
Good point but I have never believed that this was premeditated...have always felt that poor Jo was strangled simply to keep her quiet the, whoever took her life went into 'panic mode'. If her body was indeed placed by the roadside on Friday night then I think we can categorically discount G/R as I don't think he would want her body found until after his return.....especially if he had all her belongings in his vehicle. If this was premeditated then I do not understand why her body was left where it was...where anyone could have seen the perp. or his vehicle.
Click to expand...

If it had happened in the flat (on Friday), why would GR have all her belongings on him?

There was no id on the body (afaik), so if she had of been found, she would not have been able to have been id'd until he reported her missing on the Sunday night...... if that makes sense?

I do think she made it home, because I feel the dogs could have 'alerted' and that's why they was told to "prepare for the worse", and account for the talking about her in the past tense at the press conference.

The only thing I do have trouble making fit with GR; how did he get her from the flat to the car unnoticed? I think his car could have been down the road a bit, due to all the cars on the street because of the party, it would have been a huge risk being seen back there as he was supposed to have left at 7is.
 
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