AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - # 8

~n/t~ said:

I have a hypothetical question.

If your child was kidnapped and the kidnappers threatened to kill her if you go public or tell LE, what would you do? If they demanded that this be kept quiet and the ransom money be deposited on such and such a day at a certain location, etc. Would you comply or would you tell LE?

Not saying that is the reason the parents are not going public but it has crossed my mind and I pondered what I would do if my child's life was at stake.

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I would keep my mouth shut, and no one could find me until I had the money. I would do what they asked of me/

Boodles said:

I can't think of any reason not to speak to the media. For example:

"Please help us find Isa. I put her to bed at xxpm Friday night and she was wearing xxxxxxx. When xxxx awoke at 8AM Saturday morning, Isa was not in her room. We <did/did not> not hear any disturbances during the night. She has <identifying characteristics of ISA> and can speak <both English and Spanish?>. She is <shy and does not reach out to strangers easily/outgoing and easy around strangers>.....please be on the lookout for her and pass the word to all you know.' etc. etc., etc. etc.

Why on earth would they be keeping out of the media? I can't think of any reason unless there is something they are hiding. And if they are hiding something, I hope they have shared whatever it is with LE.

There is something very strange about this family, IMO.

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I can think of many reasons. In many Spanish fams stuff is kept close and many are private and reserved when tragedy happens. Family problems are kept close and drama isn't aired publicly. Some families consider grief a private thing. Not all fams are like this but it is something I've noticed in many fams as I was growing up.

This was many years ago but when the kidnappings of Esther Galaz (who was later found murdered) and Karen Grajeda happened, those fams weren't plastered all over the news either. They were quiet and reserved and very little press was done on them. Grajeda's mom, IIRC at the time, spoke very little English as well and appeared only a few times in public. Neither family has spoken in years to any media.
I have no links for backup, these are just my recollections, so of course please take them with a grain of salt. If you google their names you will see what I mean about very little being done in the public eye from these fams. The consequence has been that they are not well-known outside of AZ, and even inside AZ many do not remember them.

Perhaps they are feeling guilty. Maybe they feel like they should have checked on her again or heard something, anything. Maybe they did hear something but ignored it because they figured it was just night time noises or street traffic or what have you. Dealing with those feelings and Going through all the stages of grief right in the public eye isn't something many (not all) Spanish fams are going to want to do. Unless you come from that culture or lived around it for a long time you can't understand. I don't speak for this family but I am trying to explain culture-wise why they may be reacting this way.

Given time they may talk to the public. I don't expect a lot from what seems to be a rather private family right now. Leave them to their grief and let them deal in their own way, not anyone else's. If there is something up with the family then hopefully LE will sniff that out. It is very possible that they have been informed of the stats for what happens to a child after an abduction...maybe they have no hope and are too depressed themselves. I don't know. There is no one textbook way of reacting to every parent's worst nightmare, since we are all different backgrounds and cultures who deal with tragedy in diff ways.

iF, if, if, evidence was disposed of in a dumpster, AND that dumpster was emptied early the morning Isa went missing, then I would think that the person using the dumpster must have known which dumpsters are emptied early Saturday morning, and that would be a CLUE.

elmomom said:

iF, if, if, evidence was disposed of in a dumpster, AND that dumpster was emptied early the morning Isa went missing, then I would think that the person using the dumpster must have known which dumpsters are emptied early Saturday morning, and that would be a CLUE.

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Yes, someone who works in or lives by the strip mall.

~n/t~ said:

I have a hypothetical question.

If your child was kidnapped and the kidnappers threatened to kill her if you go public or tell LE, what would you do? If they demanded that this be kept quiet and the ransom money be deposited on such and such a day at a certain location, etc. Would you comply or would you tell LE?

Not saying that is the reason the parents are not going public but it has crossed my mind and I pondered what I would do if my child's life was at stake.

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Honestly, I don't know. I would like to think the super duper FBI/Jack Bauer types would be able to make it seem like I was following orders all the while they were ready to pounce on the perps.

I really don't think the family is involved. I can't think of a motive. I can't see a situation where she accidentally died and they tried to cover. The only thing I could see (if family was involved) would be the older brother(s).

thefragile7393 said:

Given time they may talk to the public. I don't expect a lot from what seems to be a rather private family right now. Leave them to their grief and let them deal in their own way, not anyone else's. If there is something up with the family then hopefully LE will sniff that out. It is very possible that they have been informed of the stats for what happens to a child after an abduction...maybe they have no hope and are too depressed themselves. I don't know. There is no one textbook way of reacting to every parent's worst nightmare, since we are all different backgrounds and cultures who deal with tragedy in diff ways.

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See, I don't know what culture would simply believe in the statistics when it comes to their own child missing. I really have a hard time seeing anyone on this planet just listen to the statistics and simply "grieve" when a child goes missing!

This family from the start appeared to be grieving, skipping the shock and denial stages. Perhaps they were there, but they did not come across that way in the first days issuing a remote statement to the effect that they will never give up searching--- which seemed premature at the time.

That said, I don't think this family disposed of Isa, but everything just seems to point to some state of complicity. JMO

Praying for Isabel and her family as I say good night.........

raying:

I hate to suggest this, but I just had this thought;

What if somone, close to Isabel, a family member? a friend of the family? a teacher? a neighbor? etc etc, prior to her disappearance, had exposed Isabel to some kind of abuse? and Isabel had indicated that she would tell!
And that the abuser then decided to kidnap her in order to avoid exposure?

I presume/hope that LE have investigated wheter Isabel, previously to her disappearence, have shown any signs that could indicate
that she could have been exposed to some kind of abuse.

Did Isa attend public or private school? tia

mck16 said:

Did Isa attend public or private school? tia

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She goes to a charter school.

~n/t~ said:

I have a hypothetical question.

If your child was kidnapped and the kidnappers threatened to kill her if you go public or tell LE, what would you do? If they demanded that this be kept quiet and the ransom money be deposited on such and such a day at a certain location, etc. Would you comply or would you tell LE?

Not saying that is the reason the parents are not going public but it has crossed my mind and I pondered what I would do if my child's life was at stake.

Click to expand...

What a question. We can say what we think we would do, but when in that state of panic, who knows. My first reaction is, if that deposit was asked for in the next few hours, I would try it, but if it said in a few days or in a week, I don't think I could wait. I might try to have someone close to me DRIVE to the police station and tell them what is going on so they can find a way to investigate in a discreet manner, doubt that would work, I know myself and I am very rational and not at all impulsive, but the few times when I have felt my kids are in danger, my body freezes. Once I was holding my youngest and her big sister was in a baby swing, fell out backwards on her neck, and I fainted and hit the ground before SHE did. I am useless in emergencies.

elmomom said:

iF, if, if, evidence was disposed of in a dumpster, AND that dumpster was emptied early the morning Isa went missing, then I would think that the person using the dumpster must have known which dumpsters are emptied early Saturday morning, and that would be a CLUE.

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Yep, everyone in that neighborhood knows exactly the day and the TIME those dumpsters near Office Max are dumped. The noise is very loud.

Prof said:

See, I don't know what culture would simply believe in the statistics when it comes to their own child missing. I really have a hard time seeing anyone on this planet just listen to the statistics and simply "grieve" when a child goes missing!

This family from the start appeared to be grieving, skipping the shock and denial stages. Perhaps they were there, but they did not come across that way in the first days issuing a remote statement to the effect that they will never give up searching--- which seemed premature at the time.

That said, I don't think this family disposed of Isa, but everything just seems to point to some state of complicity. JMO

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I don't know, grief doesn't mean resigning to the fact that she is deceased. You can grieve that she is missing, grieve that this is happening, grieve that one day your family was going about day to day life and now your baby is gone and you are national news.
It COULD be strange to say we will never give up as if they know it is going to be a long process, but it could just be a way of saying we are dedicated to finding her until she is found regardless of how long that takes.

marazul said:

I don't know, grief doesn't mean resigning to the fact that she is deceased. You can grieve that she is missing, grieve that this is happening, grieve that one day your family was going about day to day life and now your baby is gone and you are national news.
It COULD be strange to say we will never give up as if they know it is going to be a long process, but it could just be a way of saying we are dedicated to finding her until she is found regardless of how long that takes.

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I understand what the word means. All I am saying from my west coast perspective is why not assume a good outcome is still possible? That's what we need to do. Why immediately assume that it will be a long process? I don't ever immediately assume the worst. I gave this family the benefit of the doubt, but it is really hard to cheer for them and the safe return of beautiful Isa without their help.
Where is the shock, denial and anger from this family that I experienced at least 1000 miles away?

Prof said:

See, I don't know what culture would simply believe in the statistics when it comes to their own child missing. I really have a hard time seeing anyone on this planet just listen to the statistics and simply "grieve" when a child goes missing!

This family from the start appeared to be grieving, skipping the shock and denial stages. Perhaps they were there, but they did not come across that way in the first days issuing a remote statement to the effect that they will never give up searching--- which seemed premature at the time.

That said, I don't think this family disposed of Isa, but everything just seems to point to some state of complicity. JMO

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I never said culture had anything to do with accepting statistics or not accepting statistics. I threw it out only as a thought, considering the glumness of of the latest pressers. Perhaps if police aren't very optimistic this has rubbed off on the parents. I don't know.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

Below is the statements from todays presser that were mentioned about the elusive mystery man on the corner lot that the 5 witnesses walked past around 1:30am the morning of the abduction.. IMO we learned some things for certain in they're admitting there is a 6th person( as I know some were of the mind set that it was just shadows&lights).. That LE does NOT know who the 6th individual is.. And replied yes to a reporter asking does LE "want to know" who the 6th individual is.. Along with his stating that it is the 6th individual that is part of the entire reason they are anxious to speak with the 5 people walking past him..

Here's my portion of notes from the presser specifically regarding the "6th individual" seen on the video..

Notes from presser 4/29-
-The 6th individual is an additional and separate issue.
That's part of the reason we wanted to speak to these 5 individuals..

-Do u know who that 6th unidentified person is?(reporter asks)
No we do not(LE answers)

- Do u want to know who that person is?(reporter asks)
(LE answers)Yes, that's another reason we wanted to talk to these 5 individuals to see did they come in contact with this person or any other person for that matter.. I do not want to get too much into who this mysterious person is.. There are a lot of people who are walking in this area, especially at that specific time with the particular bars right around there..some park a distance away to avoid us(as in LE)


____________________...
Posting via mobile as well as via tablet so plz forgive all typos.. Btwn the sucky touch keyboard and the obsessive auto-correct it's a big ol' mess :crazy:

~n/t~ said:

I have a hypothetical question.

If your child was kidnapped and the kidnappers threatened to kill her if you go public or tell LE, what would you do? If they demanded that this be kept quiet and the ransom money be deposited on such and such a day at a certain location, etc. Would you comply or would you tell LE?

Not saying that is the reason the parents are not going public but it has crossed my mind and I pondered what I would do if my child's life was at stake.

Click to expand...

I think I would contact the LE and have them undercover watching ... I would follow the kidnappers demands...but have LE in the background
... I don't think I would go public, if that is what kidnapper requested..because obviously the kidnapper would see I went public... That act alone could be the death of my child...

Prof said:

I understand what the word means. All I am saying from my west coast perspective is why not assume a good outcome is still possible? That's what we need to do. Why immediately assume that it will be a long process? I don't ever immediately assume the worst. I gave this family the benefit of the doubt, but it is really hard to cheer for them and the safe return of beautiful Isa without their help.
Where is the shock, denial and anger from this family that I experienced at least 1000 miles away?

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Not arguing with your valid point, just thinking out loud... Maybe it is because it is still a sad and devastating situation either way. Even if she comes home tomorrow, as a parent there is going to be such sadness that she was taken, sacred, without her family, etc..at this point there can be a good outcome, but a terrible thing has happened either way. I don't see them acting as if there is no hope, but how long must a week feel to them? When every minute that passes they wait for good news and every minute they are let down. To us, removed, we wait for news and are frustrated by the lack of development, but most of us are still eating and sleeping and getting our kids ready for school. The more I consider it, the less I even feel comfortable making judgements about them. I want to see a miracle, I am anxious for any news or new leads, but I can only imagine how hard it would be to lose a child, have the world scrutinize my marriage, my life, my words, talk about how I should be acting... I am more in my mommy mind than websleuther mind right now, I guess. Time for bed.

I lost my 8 year old for about 5 minutes about a month ago while at my older son's baseball game. We were at a huge park with one of those wooden playgrounds. I just knew he was in there playing, even though I hadn't given him permission to do so. He has NEVER wandered off before. We had the whole team's families yelling for him. Turns out he just ran to my van to put his scooter up. He swore he told me. In that 5 minues, which felt like forever, my mind went crazy. I'm a panicky type person anyway, but the horrors that went through my head were awful. Once we were home and safe, my mind went into the "what ifs?" I had a full blown panic attack thinking of my baby being abducted by some creep and how scared he would have been wondering where mommy and daddy were and why we weren't saving him. It was awful, and yet my baby was safe in his bed. I can't imagine the thoughts going through Isa's parents not knowing where she is. Is she cold, hungry, hurting, etc. It's almost easier to think they're not suffering; thus *shudder* dead, than it is to think they're so scared and going through the horrors of being abducted, raped, etc.

Sorry, I'm rambling. I don't post here much, but this case has me by the you know what, and I don't even have you know whats.

I am not feeling that this is an accidental killing being covered by the family. It is harder to accidentally kill a strong healthy 6 yr old than it is an infant or toddler.

And she was seen friday night, at a late ball game. So not much time or opportunity for a deadly accident to befall her at that time.

I still wonder if maybe Baby Lisa was asleep with her mom, who might have drunkenly rolled over on her. Or if baby Joshua was run over in the driveway by a guest leaving the home. But with Isabel, I am not seeing the scenario.