knowing all I know, I'm still on the fence. I've wondered if the kids got up to eat, PR heard them, so she woke up and checked JBR's room, where she saw some kind of mess, and then went into a rage. BR wouldn't have been responsible, but he would know who took her out of the kitchen....and based on his psychological interview, him knowing at least this much, is what I tend to believe. But, to be honest, I've been leaning toward the more obvious. To think PR abused her daughter like this, is almost unbelievable. Yes, it's possible, but that would be on the edge of insanity, and would they cover for a mom this sick?
Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?
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SyraKelly
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This is a very close to what I think happened!! There were Christmas presents down there ripped open a little bit..
JR is the strongest suspect. No other theory really makes any sense. PR can be ruled out completely, both as the killer and as a co-conspirator in the cover up. BDI is just complete nonsense.
docG solved it years ago, but we've all been caught up in over-analyzing the case. I've recently seen that his theory makes the most sense.
If both JR/PR were in on it, even if they just worked jointly on the coverup, then the police would not have been called shortly before 6am with the body in the basement.
The staging does not fit with the RN. If there is a RN there should be no body. If they had staged it as an intruder murderer then they'd have left the body out in plain view, and naked - just the way a real intruder would do.
But we have a RN, and a body hidden in the WC, redressed, and wrapped in a blanket. That doesn't make sense.
It would be a lot safer for the Rs if the body were not in the house. Any plausible plan where the Rs acted as co-conspirators would include dumping the body. Yet the 911 call was placed with the body in the house and with staging that didn't fit with the RN.
So, the RN wasn't meant to fool the police at 6am. It was meant to fool PR. It fooled her so well that she didn't read it carefully and went off and made a 911 call.
Over and over the RN warns not to call the police or JB will be killed. I won't bother with quoting the movie lines, but the emphasis of the note is don't call the police if you want your daughter back alive.
Many of us have figured that the original plan was to dump the body. That makes sense. But we figured that the plan was aborted for some reason. We figured what actually happened was plan B. But we failed to realize that the plan to dump the body had not been abandoned. It simply had not been implemented yet. It would have been implemented later, but PR called 911 and screwed-up the plan.
Notice that the note gives JR until the morning of the 27th to come up with the money. Meanwhile, he has the perfect excuse for not calling the police. He can send PR and BR off to stay with friends, and then dump the body. After that he gets the money from the bank, phones in the ransom call, then makes the drop off. He looses $118K, but he can afford it.
PR didn't cooperate in the coverup, because if she did, she'd never have made the 911 call. It would have been easy for them to run the above scenario working together. And it's plain silly to let the police have a chance to find the body in the house. Anywhere but Boulder that would be an automatic arrest.
PR didn't write the note. I don't have time to go into all the details of that right now, but suffice to say that handwriting analysis is not a science. It's a pseudo science. It's opinion masquerading as science. Many "experts" thought JMK wrote the note when they compared his writing, that tells you how useful handwriting analysis is. Take a look at http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/ and you'll see that JR could easily have been the author.
PR didn't help with the staging. Again, if she had been in on the coverup why not get rid of the body before calling 911. Also her fibers are not inside the size 12 bloomies. Hers are only on the outside of things, and she hugged JB's lifeless body when it was brought upstairs, so we really don't know whether fiber transfer happened downstairs or upstairs.
Sure, her fibers are in the basement too, and she probably lied about wearing the red jacket (or was it a sweater) down there. Or there could have simply been fiber transfer that explains her red fibers in the basement.
I'm going to write up my theory of the case for the members theories thread, but that will have to wait a while, when I'm not as busy. It's not that I can improve on docG's write up, but it might help if there were 2 people writing from the same perspective.
Shake off your conviction that PR wrote the note. She didn't. It makes no sense for her to have called 911 when she did if she was in on it. It's that simple. Spending a couple more years analyzing the word "hence" or pondering why the Paughs bought 3 books as gifts, or trying to decide who also ate pineapple with JB is not going to solve the case. Step back, stop examining the bark on a particular tree, and notice that in front of you is a forest.
The answer is plain as day if you can stop getting lost in the minutiae.
The RN doesn't jibe with a body in the house. The RN was meant to buy time to dispose of the body. PR would know this if she were in on it. The fact that she called 911 shows us she wasn't in on it. The RN is consistent with stalling for time to get rid of the body. That's the whole case in a nutshell.
Oh, and BDI is nonsese because in that scenario no one is going to jail, so there is no need for a coverup. BDIs love the theory because it seems to explain PR/JR pulling in team. But the 911 call with the body in the house makes no sense, so we know PR wasn't part of the team.
We can't say anyone killed JB w/o a conviction. We can say who we think is the strongest suspect. IMO JDI is the strongest case theory.
docG solved it years ago, but we've all been caught up in over-analyzing the case. I've recently seen that his theory makes the most sense.
If both JR/PR were in on it, even if they just worked jointly on the coverup, then the police would not have been called shortly before 6am with the body in the basement.
The staging does not fit with the RN. If there is a RN there should be no body. If they had staged it as an intruder murderer then they'd have left the body out in plain view, and naked - just the way a real intruder would do.
But we have a RN, and a body hidden in the WC, redressed, and wrapped in a blanket. That doesn't make sense.
It would be a lot safer for the Rs if the body were not in the house. Any plausible plan where the Rs acted as co-conspirators would include dumping the body. Yet the 911 call was placed with the body in the house and with staging that didn't fit with the RN.
So, the RN wasn't meant to fool the police at 6am. It was meant to fool PR. It fooled her so well that she didn't read it carefully and went off and made a 911 call.
Over and over the RN warns not to call the police or JB will be killed. I won't bother with quoting the movie lines, but the emphasis of the note is don't call the police if you want your daughter back alive.
Many of us have figured that the original plan was to dump the body. That makes sense. But we figured that the plan was aborted for some reason. We figured what actually happened was plan B. But we failed to realize that the plan to dump the body had not been abandoned. It simply had not been implemented yet. It would have been implemented later, but PR called 911 and screwed-up the plan.
Notice that the note gives JR until the morning of the 27th to come up with the money. Meanwhile, he has the perfect excuse for not calling the police. He can send PR and BR off to stay with friends, and then dump the body. After that he gets the money from the bank, phones in the ransom call, then makes the drop off. He looses $118K, but he can afford it.
PR didn't cooperate in the coverup, because if she did, she'd never have made the 911 call. It would have been easy for them to run the above scenario working together. And it's plain silly to let the police have a chance to find the body in the house. Anywhere but Boulder that would be an automatic arrest.
PR didn't write the note. I don't have time to go into all the details of that right now, but suffice to say that handwriting analysis is not a science. It's a pseudo science. It's opinion masquerading as science. Many "experts" thought JMK wrote the note when they compared his writing, that tells you how useful handwriting analysis is. Take a look at http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/ and you'll see that JR could easily have been the author.
PR didn't help with the staging. Again, if she had been in on the coverup why not get rid of the body before calling 911. Also her fibers are not inside the size 12 bloomies. Hers are only on the outside of things, and she hugged JB's lifeless body when it was brought upstairs, so we really don't know whether fiber transfer happened downstairs or upstairs.
Sure, her fibers are in the basement too, and she probably lied about wearing the red jacket (or was it a sweater) down there. Or there could have simply been fiber transfer that explains her red fibers in the basement.
I'm going to write up my theory of the case for the members theories thread, but that will have to wait a while, when I'm not as busy. It's not that I can improve on docG's write up, but it might help if there were 2 people writing from the same perspective.
Shake off your conviction that PR wrote the note. She didn't. It makes no sense for her to have called 911 when she did if she was in on it. It's that simple. Spending a couple more years analyzing the word "hence" or pondering why the Paughs bought 3 books as gifts, or trying to decide who also ate pineapple with JB is not going to solve the case. Step back, stop examining the bark on a particular tree, and notice that in front of you is a forest.
The answer is plain as day if you can stop getting lost in the minutiae.
The RN doesn't jibe with a body in the house. The RN was meant to buy time to dispose of the body. PR would know this if she were in on it. The fact that she called 911 shows us she wasn't in on it. The RN is consistent with stalling for time to get rid of the body. That's the whole case in a nutshell.
Oh, and BDI is nonsese because in that scenario no one is going to jail, so there is no need for a coverup. BDIs love the theory because it seems to explain PR/JR pulling in team. But the 911 call with the body in the house makes no sense, so we know PR wasn't part of the team.
We can't say anyone killed JB w/o a conviction. We can say who we think is the strongest suspect. IMO JDI is the strongest case theory.
SyraKelly
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docG is another websleuth. He dose not post much anymore. He has made a website explaining his theory of the case. You can read it at http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/
Whaleshark
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Chris, you might be pleasantly surprised to know, since I argued with you on the fact that a staging could be to cover for BDI (also), that last year I pointed out the possibility of JR writing that RN, and the similarities to his handwriting.... citing DocG's comparisons....
See, I told you I am not one theory or the other...I am definitely an RDI, but not committed to one solution yet....
The JDI theory will do just fine in my eyes as well.... because the thing with the Ramsey writings is, they often wrote things TOGETHER..... I often see elements of BOTH of them in the note..... that's what I think makes it so hard to decipher...
The JDI and RN theory is not very popular though, and people kind of roll their eyes at it and the DocG theory..... but that's fine.... I'm not all decided, but I'm still open-minded -- at least about which possible RDI scenario happened, that is.
....and you thought you knew me so well, didn't you?
P.S. - i also thought that is why a certain word in the ransom note was misspelled.... simply because he actually had an issue spelling certain words - is it one s or 2? -- if you look at one of his writing samples, he makes the same mistake in it as well..... yet, there are what could be considered elements of Patsy's writing and language, grammar notations, etc., as well... that's why I never completely closed the door on one theory or the other....
I see elements of both as well. I see parts that look like JR's writing, and parts that look like PR's. I also see parts that don't look like either.
For me what is important is not the handwriting but why the body -wrapped, hidden (awaiting removal?) but still present where it can be discovered- doesn't fit with the RN. Doc's theory is the only one that, to me, makes sense of the RN.
Doc must have quit posting before I joined WS. I can't remember seeing any of his posts until a week or so ago.
Sorry I missed your post of a year ago. How was the reaction when you said JR might have written it?
Whaleshark
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My post on considering it last year:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7012620&postcount=307"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7012620&postcount=307[/ame]
...about the same type of response or non-responsiveness, I guess... I mean, since most RDI people are 100% convinced that it could only possibly have been Patsy that wrote it, not much consideration or research is even given to the other Ramsey.
But if you don't consider all possibilities, you could lose out on important pieces of the puzzle...you'll never see it any other way...
So, you know people discount it and that's that... I don't discount it though.
Aside from the obvious possible Patsy elements in the note,
these are possible John elements I see / reasons for his RN involvement (or only author):
- handwriting characteristics
- spelling issue characteristic
- propensity for percentages
- harsh reference to kidnapping / drama movies - he liked drama/action/adventure and Dirty Harry, plus bestseller drama fiction
- reference to respecting John's business
- exact amount of John's bonus
- SBTC for signature - his association to Subic Bay, and his offering when asked what he conjectured, was of course, to a movie reference...
- his knowledge of fat cats and 'southern common sense' inside joke
- his first comment to Linda Arndt -- 'it's an inside job' -- he's pretty sure he knows who the perpetrator and what their motive is, the moment he brings her up....
- plus, even if it's obvious the similarities from the newsletters and writings that PATSY often wrote and sent out, she herself stated that SHE AND JOHN wrote things TOGETHER... so just because she 'wrote' the words on the holiday newsletters and some of the things that went out publicly, doesn't mean they were necessarily all HER OWN words....
so even if the RN reads like many of her writings... doesn't mean she was always the sole author of those writings -- and she wasn't...
Nova
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I don't "presume" that there were numerous leaks during the first years after the murder. That's a fact. Given the numerous charges of incompetence leveled against the BPD and AH, SOMEBODY would have leaked it if they thought BDI and they simply couldn't file a charge because of BR's age. That's all I was saying.
Powerful interests (and the problem of determining which R did what) may well have influenced the lack of prosecution, but human nature being what it is, I don't believe people quietly watched their careers go down in flames just to protect somebody else's 10-year-old. Law or no law.
(Whether BDI and LE didn't realize it because LE was focused on the parents is another matter, of course.)
Nova
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Good point, Chris. I've always found the widely diverging forensic opinions nearly impossible to reconcile; perhaps the new book helps to clear up this problem.
It appears that readers of the book are now taking it for granted that the head trauma occurred some time before the strangulation. IF THAT IS TRUE (big "if", I know), then a 9-year-old boy hitting his sister over the head could easily be explained as an accident: she fell down the stairs, he accidentally hit her playing baseball in the basement, etc.
Your point about the difficulty in explaining the sexual abuse is well made. In fact, the partial tearing of the hymen COULD have an "innocent" explanation, but the abuser probably wouldn't know that.
Whaleshark
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Duplicate.... See below post...
Nova
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Where I always come up short is with the Rs sending BR off by himself with FW and a policeman during the morning of the "kidnapping".
For one, the Rs don't seem to have been too worried about the "small foreign faction" that claimed to be watching. But then they weren't too concerned earlier when they called half the town and invited them over to keep watch.
More important to our discussion, I just can't get past the idea that if BDI, the Rs wouldn't have let him go off with a family friend and a police officer, out of their sight and out of their control.
How could the Rs have known what an almost-10-year-old might say, even if they had put the fear of God into him? It's not as if any of them had ever been in that situation before.
Whaleshark
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I think that's what Kolar is doing... Several years after he left the case, made sure he had everything laid out the best he feels is accurate according to all evidence and information he had, and with adequate protection under the law to publish this info.. All with his own money...
And as I recall, anytime anyone mentioned Burke did it, like the tabloids said all those years ago, they got threatened with lawsuits ... And I think some were settled.
So it seems there were suspicions of various family members and scenarios, some including Burke, some not.... But they tried to prevent any access to him and accusations of him were nipped in the bud, including with lawsuit threats...
Nova
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Whaleshark, I was talking about not-for-attribution leaks, not official public statements. It's a lot harder to sue over the former. That CO law and Wood successfully stifled official pronouncements re BR makes perfect sense to me.
I think a confidential leak from someone like AH would have made THE GLOBE enough money to pay off the Rs.
But I'll have to read Kolar and see what he says. From reading posts here, it seems Kolar has convinced as many people that PDI as BDI.
I think a confidential leak from someone like AH would have made THE GLOBE enough money to pay off the Rs.
But I'll have to read Kolar and see what he says. From reading posts here, it seems Kolar has convinced as many people that PDI as BDI.
OpenMind4U
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Thanks God we all have an 'open mind' on this forum
....Every scenario is possible IN THE MIND of it's creator. Agree? So, let's also agree that everyone is entitled to solve this mystery in the way it fits individual's logic and currently known evidences. Kind of, like every individual can see/describe the painting on the museum wall differently...Well, some of what doesn't make sense, could be as simple as changing their minds, because who, in their right minds, would want to drive around with a dead body? When it came down to the nitty gritty, maybe somebody just couldn't find the nerve? IDK, but I happen to agree with a lot you said, but something has been nagging me. What if what is assumed as staging, really wasn't? What if what was seen, was exactly how things happened? Some of the 'staging', clean up, show of 'affection', doesn't point to expecting cops to see the body, (that would be stupid), but at the same time, what looks like it was done for the benefit of cops, doesn't make a lick of sense, if they were planning to dump the body. In other words, if they were planning to dump the body, why stage anything, for any reason? And if they Did want cops to find the body, why cover her with a blanket, for instance? What this looks like to me, is someONE abused and killed JBR, and intended to get rid of her body, and either his/her plan was foiled, or he/she chickened out, and then had to improvise. I think it's possible, that some of the staging, happened after the plan was foiled...but, if that's so, why leave the blanket, etc...? MOO
Whaleshark
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Yes.... A couple $118,000 questions -
What was really staging?
Who was the staging really for?
Also, once the crime scene was changed and contaminated even further the next morning by all those people there moving things around and cleaning things up, and adding their DNA, there isn't even a 'pristine' staged crime scene anymore....
To the point even that it was noted for a fact that the crime scene photos lied...
(Impossible to even know what was really left out from the night before, or put there in the kitchen area, etc. by the people who made sandwiches, the advocates, other guests, etc....)
But if John really 'found' her at 11am, wonder what may or may not have been changed about the crime scene at that time?
What was really staging?
Who was the staging really for?
Also, once the crime scene was changed and contaminated even further the next morning by all those people there moving things around and cleaning things up, and adding their DNA, there isn't even a 'pristine' staged crime scene anymore....
To the point even that it was noted for a fact that the crime scene photos lied...
(Impossible to even know what was really left out from the night before, or put there in the kitchen area, etc. by the people who made sandwiches, the advocates, other guests, etc....)
But if John really 'found' her at 11am, wonder what may or may not have been changed about the crime scene at that time?
Hi I'm just a newbie, so I hope it's ok if I join in?
I've been reading about this case for a long time and I think I'm pretty much a BDI, with parental cover up (all strictly my opinion only).
I have a child with Aspergers, so when I read about B's behaviour, the odd dispassionate language, (beep beep, just want to get on with my life) etc I'm not in the least bit surprised by it, it's exactly how my own child would talk, and in fact it's exactly how I have seen my own child talk at times when sympathy, compassion, sadness could be expected.
I've also seen flashes of incredible rage which thankfully my child has never acted upon, but do I think they or any other child could be capable of it? oh yes, just a moment, thats all it takes, just a flash, so easily done..and with the added intense frustrations of the condition? yes.
One important point though is that usually children with Aspergers find it very difficult to tell a lie, (and if they do try it is glaringly obvious, they cannot hide it), generally they tell the truth at all costs, regardless if it hurts, which makes me wonder if the question was ever asked?
Another thing I've seen much discussed (if BDI) is WHY would the R's try and cover it up? why not just report it if it would just be classed as an accident and covered over.
I think the motive that stands out for me is shame, pure and simple. From what I've read appearances seem to have been very important to the R's, perhaps especially to P, and can you imagine the social stigma and shame of being the parent of a child who caused the death of a sibling? and thats before even considering the more disturbing elements of the case...if you are at the top of the pile it's a terrifying fall to the bottom, and so I imagine avoiding that kind of shame is a powerful motivating factor, one that could make one engage in all kind of risks because the gamble might just pay off and prestige and family may just be maintained.
I would be very interested to know how many people have swtiched to BDI since reading Kolars book (I have not yet bought it, funds will not allow at present).
I'm not sure how much it is ok to say publically on the forum, so if I have overstepped the mark please just delete this.
I'm just a newbie, so I hope it's ok if I join in?I've been reading about this case for a long time and I think I'm pretty much a BDI, with parental cover up (all strictly my opinion only).
I have a child with Aspergers, so when I read about B's behaviour, the odd dispassionate language, (beep beep, just want to get on with my life) etc I'm not in the least bit surprised by it, it's exactly how my own child would talk, and in fact it's exactly how I have seen my own child talk at times when sympathy, compassion, sadness could be expected.
I've also seen flashes of incredible rage which thankfully my child has never acted upon, but do I think they or any other child could be capable of it? oh yes, just a moment, thats all it takes, just a flash, so easily done
..and with the added intense frustrations of the condition? yes.One important point though is that usually children with Aspergers find it very difficult to tell a lie, (and if they do try it is glaringly obvious, they cannot hide it), generally they tell the truth at all costs, regardless if it hurts, which makes me wonder if the question was ever asked?
Another thing I've seen much discussed (if BDI) is WHY would the R's try and cover it up? why not just report it if it would just be classed as an accident and covered over.
I think the motive that stands out for me is shame, pure and simple. From what I've read appearances seem to have been very important to the R's, perhaps especially to P, and can you imagine the social stigma and shame of being the parent of a child who caused the death of a sibling? and thats before even considering the more disturbing elements of the case...if you are at the top of the pile it's a terrifying fall to the bottom, and so I imagine avoiding that kind of shame is a powerful motivating factor, one that could make one engage in all kind of risks because the gamble might just pay off and prestige and family may just be maintained.
I would be very interested to know how many people have swtiched to BDI since reading Kolars book (I have not yet bought it, funds will not allow at present).
I'm not sure how much it is ok to say publically on the forum, so if I have overstepped the mark please just delete this.
That's it, the scene, doesn't look right, if they were trying to fool the cops. Maybe I shouldn't call it staging.
Excellent post!
I think the Ramseys knew they could not maintain a ruse in an investigation that let their son be the target of investigation no matter who had killed JonBenet.
It is interesting to me that during all these years three professionals...Arndt, Thomas, and Kolar... have concluded publicly or seemed to conclude that either John, Patsy or possibly Burke did it.
There is no telling how much suppressed evidence is involved.
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