Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

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It was my impression that when TLM first confessed, she didn't mention a sexual assault. The sexual assault charge wasn't laid until a year later. It sounds to me like she first denied everything, then admitted some involvement, then said MR committed the murder, then added the sexual assault story around the time she plead guilty, then, in January, said that she committed the murder.

JMO

She told Det Smyth about the sexual assault during her formal interview on May 24th, 2009 I believe. So that aspect has been in play since the very beginning.

MOO
 
actually I don't bother with pictures...I am familiar with areas around school having done the school run for many years...I know what a scene looks like and I also know as I previously stated why parents try and avoid a crowded parking lot and move further along...maybe the next place to park was also full of those parents that won't park at the school so that is why MR moved on to the home area...funny though one would think he would have been worried about camera's at that home because I would think they would have them considering all the drugs that they would have in there... Just saying... JMO also most area's around a school have a very slow speed and at least where I live there is usually a cop in the area to enforce that speed limit...just saying......

Do you have any experience with the school in question? Speculation on other schools isn't helpful IMO. That's why I posted the pictures. You can clearly see what the traffic was like around dismissal time at the ACTUAL school we're talking about in those pictures. And it was very mininimal. Which is perhaps why he chose that school.

MOO
 
She told Det Smyth about the sexual assault during her formal interview on May 24th, 2009 I believe. So that aspect has been in play since the very beginning.

MOO

I hadn't watched the entire interview. Couldn't make it through it. I'll try to find some time later. I wonder why the sexual assault charge wasn't laid until a year later then?
 
Do you have any experience with the school in question? Speculation on other schools isn't helpful IMO. That's why I posted the pictures. You can clearly see what the traffic was like around dismissal time at the ACTUAL school we're talking about in those pictures. And it was very mininimal. Which is perhaps why he chose that school.

MOO

to answer your question...no not this particular school but I am now going to move on with this issue as you can only beat a horse so much and one ends up going around in circles.. ..I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one okay...respectfully...JMO
 
actually I don't bother with pictures...I am familiar with areas around school having done the school run for many years...I know what a scene looks like and I also know as I previously stated why parents try and avoid a crowded parking lot and move further along...maybe the next place to park was also full of those parents that won't park at the school so that is why MR moved on to the home area...funny though one would think he would have been worried about camera's at that home because I would think they would have them considering all the drugs that they would have in there... Just saying... JMO also most area's around a school have a very slow speed and at least where I live there is usually a cop in the area to enforce that speed limit...just saying......


Fyfe isn't really a street where you can get up to great speeds on, no need for police to setup speed traps in that school zone... But they do in a couple other school zones in the city, but nothing like I've seen in some USA cities where they actually have police there during dismissal times etc where the speed limit changes during school dissmisal times.

That retirement/nursing home was built in a time when cameras were not considered to be needed, I remember going there to visit relatives as a child and that was over 30 years ago, I'm sure they've been added inside the building and on doors, but not sure about any cameras on the parking lots etc... Obviously those could be seen if there were any.
 
I hadn't watched the entire interview. Couldn't make it through it. I'll try to find some time later. I wonder why the sexual assault charge wasn't laid until a year later then?

It may have been but we just didn't hear about it because of the publication ban.

MOO
 
It was my impression that when TLM first confessed, she didn't mention a sexual assault. The sexual assault charge wasn't laid until a year later. It sounds to me like she first denied everything, then admitted some involvement, then said MR committed the murder, then added the sexual assault story around the time she plead guilty, then, in January, said that she committed the murder.

JMO

She admitted the sexual assault during her polygraph, which I believe was 5/19/09. She went into detail at the videotaped confession on 5/24/2009. JMO
 
Tour down Francis street on your "streetview"

Pretty sad really, then if you hop on over to Tennyson there is a police car in the driveway at MR's moms. I wonder if it was just a coincidence that the streets were photographed for Streetview at that time.
 
Regarding parking his car in front of OS public school, if MR had no intention of picking up VS that day, why would he park in front of the school?

We don't know what happened that day, so it is possible that TLM asked if she could take the ride to Guelph with him, and asked him to meet her at the CC parking lot.

Maybe he arrived early and decided to get some gas, or go looking for TLM and that is why he is seen driving around.

Perhaps TLM was coming from somewhere in that area........selling drugs, visiting a relative or friend,...........it's possible.

TLM could have been angry about something, saw VS coming out of the school, and picked up with her there...........telling MR the babysitting story when she arrived at the CC parking lot.

JMO..........
 
If TLM told VS they were going to see TLM's dog, how did TLM get VS to go to the car in the parking lot and get in..........without a big struggle?

Did she drag VS to the car? Did VS fight with her?

All I recall TLM saying is that she "pushed" VS into the car.

The would mean VS was at the side of the car with the door open.........but how did TLM get VS into that position..........without telling her some kind of story about babysitting at the least?

TLM's testimony doesn't add up here...........and the Crown didn't pursue it for some reason.

The Crown hasn't pursued a lot of things, in this trial.

IMO............JMO
 
perfectly put ... IMO

I'm at a loss, as to this. Maybe someone wants to state their speculation. IMO, it would be an interesting read, at the very least. From what I've come to see with all the reality shows about crime - anything is possible.
 
Maybe I should have been clearer, not saying that they actually knew each other, but that maybe MR knew more about TM then he let on

Just like he didn't really know TLM during that May 15th interview with LE at his mother's house. Hmmm.
 
I believe the crown has six months to amend


The Crown prosecutor has six months after conviction to initiate the DO hearing. The Crown must show the offender is a serious threat to the safety of others. This usually means establishing a history of violent crime, and indifference by the offender as to the consequences of past behaviour. Related behaviour can be considered, but in practice there usually must be a history of extremely violent, brutal behaviour. The majority (85 per cent) of DOs have been convicted of a sexual assault crime.

http://www.trickey.ca/trick's_law_12/3(5)_sentencing.doc

Regarding parking his car in front of OS public school, if MR had no intention of picking up VS that day, why would he park in front of the school?

We don't know what happened that day, so it is possible that TLM asked if she could take the ride to Guelph with him, and asked him to meet her at the CC parking lot.

Maybe he arrived early and decided to get some gas, or go looking for TLM and that is why he is seen driving around.

Perhaps TLM was coming from somewhere in that area........selling drugs, visiting a relative or friend,...........it's possible.

TLM could have been angry about something, saw VS coming out of the school, and picked up with her there...........telling MR the babysitting story when she arrived at the CC parking lot.

JMO..........

I believe TLM just started walking in the same direction and casually brought up the dog conversation. She may have said, "I have my dog in the car if you want to see it?". Tori was heading that way anyway and probably thought, why not? MR passed them and knew they were on the way. He probably had the door open, ingnition running and off they went. Rather simple, really. JMO
 
Unless the Crown is waiting for the last minute to pull a rabbit out of the hat, I think (IMO) that what he didn’t ask his witnesses is as significant as what he did.

So many people have expressed concern for the women MTR contacted and dated. The Crown questioned at least a dozen (roughly), correct? If he didn’t ask them whether or not they had children, I assume that they didn’t. If they did, he would have wanted to drive that point home (that MTR deliberately chose single moms). From what I have read, it was actually a small minority of them who had kids. Of the seven on the stand on April 13, only two testified to having children. One of these, (SL, age 50) he never even met in person.

More importantly, he didn’t ask even one of these women if they had so much as an inkling of suspicion that MTR was unduly interested in her child(ren) in an inappropriate way. This was his chance and he didn’t ask. Why not? Because he knew that the answer would be negative and would not establish any such predilection in the accused.

It is MOO that MTR had no history of pedophilia. The Crown had three years to try find some evidence of this and the opportunity to bring the jury’s attention to it seems to have passed. There is only TLM’s dubious word that MTR had any sexual interest in children. As of 2:00 p.m. on April 8th, when he dropped TLM off at the employment centre and told her he was leaving town and would see her the next day, there was no plan to abduct and sexually assault a child. But according to TLM, the plan was suggested to her less than an hour before Tori was kidnapped - kidnapped by her.

The Crown also did not ask any of these women if MTR showed any physically aggressive behaviour toward them ... suggesting that he could be violent. He didn’t ask if he had ever threatened them. He didn’t even ask them if MTR had a bad temper.

I have checked again with my lawyer friend, and both the Crown and the defence are entitled to ask any questions of their witnesses that may be relevant to the charges. They do know in advance what the answers to their questions will be. They can and do try to establish anything via testimony that will bolster their own case. And this is why Justice Heeney advised the jury that they may NOT consider MTR being a "philandering cad" as part of the evidence. As despicable as he may have acted towards women, it does not have anything to do with his charges of kidnapping, murder, or sexual assault.

IMO, there were a lot of questions the Crown could have asked that he did not. Now, I’m looking forward to what questions the defence will ask.

JMO
 
As far as I know she was not classified a dangerous offender so it very much was a benefit to her, she will be 44 if she does the full 25 years.

If she went to trial she would have been.

That is not for certain. I looked for and posted some links about dangerous offender status in an earlier thread. First, very few women have been classified in that manner. Second, at least one of them had that status revoked and they were freed from jail. Pleading guilty and getting 25 years is not a benefit to her: if she would have went to trial, she might have been acquitted (IMO she wouldn't and shouldn't have been, but you never know with a jury). Please do the research on dangerous offender status; it isn't a given, nor is it akin to throwing away the key.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/LOP/ResearchPublications/prb0613-e.htm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2010/10/21/f-dangerous-offender.html
http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/reports/r125/r125-eng.shtml
eta: imo
 
Do you have any experience with the school in question? Speculation on other schools isn't helpful IMO. That's why I posted the pictures. You can clearly see what the traffic was like around dismissal time at the ACTUAL school we're talking about in those pictures. And it was very mininimal. Which is perhaps why he chose that school.

MOO

You are so right. It really is dependent on the school and the way the city is laid out around it. Having had children at some point is, imo, not relevant, and not an excuse for not looking at the evidence. Every school is different. Some have u-shaped driveways, some don't. It varies considerably from province to province, from city to city, from school division to school division.

Thanks to the OP for posting the streetview pictures of the actual school in question.
 
If TLM told VS they were going to see TLM's dog, how did TLM get VS to go to the car in the parking lot and get in..........without a big struggle?

Did she drag VS to the car? Did VS fight with her?

All I recall TLM saying is that she "pushed" VS into the car.

The would mean VS was at the side of the car with the door open.........but how did TLM get VS into that position..........without telling her some kind of story about babysitting at the least?

TLM's testimony doesn't add up here...........and the Crown didn't pursue it for some reason.

The Crown hasn't pursued a lot of things, in this trial.

IMO............JMO

(RSBM)

Yes, it's interesting how many people were so sure that there was CASS video evidence of Tori being pushed into that car. And now it appears that the only evidence we have of Tori ever even being in that car are TLM's testimony, a minute drop of her blood on the moulding, and the fact that the poor girl ended up where she did. Not a speck of DNA on the coat that allegedly covered her. Obviously, she must have been, but no one other than the two accused saw her get into it, or sit in it, or ride in it.

JMO
 
Respectfully snipped for brevity

I do recall him saying he had heard of her, and had also dated and/or spent time with a woman whose daughter was friend of Tori's, though I don't specifically recall him saying he actually knew TM. Did I miss something where he actually said he knew TM? TIA

No, you didn't miss anything, my mistake and I fixed my post - MR said he knew OF Tara.

Salem
 
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