Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices

Tadpole12 said:

Ty for all your efforts, otg.

Realize this makes you a thread knotpert.

So ..... how could the garotte mechanism have worked if JBR was not hung or suspended. Could she have been tied to a chair or, is there enough total length of rope to be tied to each post of her twin size bed.

Again?, what are your estimates of total length of rope used to make the garotte plus stick device and total length used forming arm restraints?

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Tad, the whole point of all my postings on this is that the “garrote mechanism” is not functional as it was made. Could the cord have strangled her in a way other than by hanging? Yes. But did the “handle” serve any purpose? No; especially if it had her hair tangled in the knot -- which it did. As for it possibly being used in another way (tied to a chair or a bedpost), I suppose it would be a possibility. I don’t really see how all the other evidence would fit in with a scenario like that, but if you can come up with one, I’m all ears. Like I’ve said before, I’m not married to any one theory; and I’m not trying to fit the evidence together to come to a predetermined conclusion. The evidence is what it is. It’s up to us to figure what it means.

On the total length of cord... I had not included the length of cord used on wrists. I was only trying to figure, as close as possible, the length of cord between the left wrist knot and the neck knot; and it was based on a lot of assumptions and estimates because of a lack of verifiable or otherwise known information. This was only to see if there was enough estimated length for it to have possibly been used like that. IMO, there was.

Others (and you) may disagree with my conclusion, but it all seems to fit with everything else we know.
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DeeDee249 said:

otg's last paragraph provides an interesting possibility- that which some believe anyway IDI as well as RDI- that the ligature may have not been intended to kill her. There are three possibilities as far as the ligature, as I see it:
The ligature was part of a bondage/sexual activity and NOT meant to kill her
The ligature was MEANT to kill her
The ligature was STAGING, meant to lend credence to a cause of death for a child who was unconscious/comatose from the head blow which had no outward signs, and was dying. The purpose of the strangulation in that case was to provide an instantly visible, plausible cause of death for a child that otherwise had no visible explanation why she was dead in her basement. If this was the case, this last theory could only be RDI as a intruder wouldn't care about providing a visible cause of death, they'd simply have left her anyway.

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Yes, DD. I totally agree with that, and I applaud the logic in it. (I always look forward to your posts for that reason.)

The first has the head bash coming during the activity, in response to her scream. It not only silenced her immediately, but knocked her out. If the ligature activity continued after that, it may explain how one of the ligature marks was white (postmortem) and the others were red. She may have died during this activity and the perp(s) did not know it.

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But how long would the ligature have had to be left in the very same spot post mortem in order for it to leave the white area? Surely in that amount of time, the person (assumed to be doing this for some sort of sexual gratification?) would have notice that the recipient of his attention was not responding.

The second and third have the head bash coming first, to silence her.

As to whether she could have been tied to a chair or otherwise suspended- there were no marks of any kind on her wrists, and had she been suspended by the wrists or had they been tied to anything tightly enough to restrain her, there would have been marks on her wrists. Not as deep as the ligature furrow, perhaps, but still there would be evidence that cord was tied fairly tightly around her wrists, and the loose cords found on one wrist are not enough evidence the cord was TIGHT, as they could be staging. JR's comment that they were tightly bound has to be false because:
1. there are NO marks on her wrists and 2. JB was in full rigor mortis by that time, which develops about 12 hours after death, and her wrists would still have been frozen in that close together position, even without a cord around them. We know her her wrists were more than a foot apart.

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Agreed.

If she were tied to a chair some other way, the only way I see it happening is cord around her torso. We haven't seen photos of her torso from the front, only of her back.
I find it hard to believe the coroner would not/could not determine she had been tied to anything or suspended at some point, but there were other things, as we all know, that the coroner did not put in the report. He did specify ligature strangulation, not hanging.

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If a person is hung, unless it is from a sufficient enough height to cause severe neck damage, the person dies from asphyxia by strangulation. IOW, “strangulation” is the cause -- “hanging” would be the means of affecting the cause. The coroner’s job was to determine the cause of death, and he did: “asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma”. Had JonBenet been found still hanging when he first saw her body at the Ramsey home, he may have mentioned the hanging, but he still would not have said that it was the cause of death. For all he would know at that point, she may have been poisoned (reason for the toxicological testing) and hung after death to distract from the actual COD. Indeed, as it turned out, the strangulation was not the only COD. The head blow was not even evident until her scalp was cut and reflected during the autopsy.

One thing is certain- whatever position she was in when she died, she was placed on her back in the wineceller within the period that livor mortis was in the early blanching stage. Because if she had died in any other position or been moved at all during that period, there would be another livor mortis pattern on the body and there is only one- indicating blood pooling as she lay on her back, head cocked to the right. There is no livor mortis pattern indicating she was hung, suspended or in a sitting position after she was dead more than about 10 minutes.
So she COULD have died in a sitting or suspended position, but had to be placed on her back right after.

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Again, I absolutely agree with all that, except the minimal amount of time (10 minutes) you allowed for livor mortis.
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otg said:

Yes, DD.
If a person is hung, unless it is from a sufficient enough height to cause severe neck damage, the person dies from asphyxia by strangulation. IOW, “strangulation” is the cause -- “hanging” would be the means of affecting the cause. The coroner’s job was to determine the cause of death, and he did: “asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma”. Had JonBenet been found still hanging when he first saw her body at the Ramsey home, he may have mentioned the hanging, but he still would not have said that it was the cause of death. For all he would know at that point, she may have been poisoned (reason for the toxicological testing) and hung after death to distract from the actual COD. Indeed, as it turned out, the strangulation was not the only COD. The head blow was not even evident until her scalp was cut and reflected during the autopsy.

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Just thinking about what you said about "hanging". Hanging by definition is having someone suspended by the neck by means of a rope/ligature. In a true hanging for the purposes of execution, the hangman would try to break the criminal's neck in the fall, rather than strangle them to death. However, in this case, JBR was asphyxiated. Couldn't the same effect be gained by having someone flat on the floor (as we believe she was) with upward pressure on the rope/ligature, by means of pulling on the 'handle' woven into it? A kind of 'horizontal' rather than 'vertical' hanging?

MurriFlower said:

Just thinking about what you said about "hanging". Hanging by definition is having someone suspended by the neck by means of a rope/ligature. In a true hanging for the purposes of execution, the hangman would try to break the criminal's neck in the fall, rather than strangle them to death. However, in this case, JBR was asphyxiated.

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Yes, that's one of the points I've been trying to get across. If the purpose were to provide a quick and somewhat painless death (as in an execution), the long drop in a gallows would do the trick. If OTOH you wanted the person to suffer, you would simply place the noose around their neck and slowly raise them off the ground until they struggled and died slowly from asphyxiation. Asphyxia is literally a lack of oxygen to the body. Other things can cause asphyxia as well: Carbon monoxide poisoning, smothering from something obstructing the airway (a pillow, hand, etc.), choking on food, and even sleep apnea.

I am positing that what happened to JonBenet is somewhat between those two forms of hanging I mention above -- not from a high elevation, and not just a slow pulling on the cord.

Couldn't the same effect be gained by having someone flat on the floor (as we believe she was) with upward pressure on the rope/ligature, by means of pulling on the 'handle' woven into it? A kind of 'horizontal' rather than 'vertical' hanging?

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(my bold above)​

The same effect would indeed be accomplished by the person's being flat on the floor (as you believe she was) while pulling up on the cord (with or without the "handle"). In fact, I'll give you this also: The furrow that was formed around the ligature after she was dead is more in line with what you are suggesting than her having been hung. Where I disagree with you though is that I believe the cord was moved to that position after she had already been strangled. And that opinion, as I've stated, is mostly (but not only) because of the blanched area below the furrow which is at a perfect angle to indicate that she was hung.

The other problem I have with your scenario is the use at all of the paintbrush handle in any way other than to misdirect investigators.

I've asked before in other posts before (because I really don't know the answer), but have never heard with confidence, when and how was her hair either pulled out or cut from the paintbrush knot? Doesn't anyone else see the significance of that? The answer, if we could find out with any certainty, may put to rest the idea that this "garrote" was ever used.

Anyone?
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otg said:

Yes, that's one of the points I've been trying to get across. If the purpose were to provide a quick and somewhat painless death (as in an execution), the long drop in a gallows would do the trick. If OTOH you wanted the person to suffer, you would simply place the noose around their neck and slowly raise them off the ground until they struggled and died slowly from asphyxiation. Asphyxia is literally a lack of oxygen to the body. Other things can cause asphyxia as well: Carbon monoxide poisoning, smothering from something obstructing the airway (a pillow, hand, etc.), choking on food, and even sleep apnea.

I am positing that what happened to JonBenet is somewhat between those two forms of hanging I mention above -- not from a high elevation, and not just a slow pulling on the cord.

(my bold above)​

The same effect would indeed be accomplished by the person's being flat on the floor (as you believe she was) while pulling up on the cord (with or without the "handle"). In fact, I'll give you this also: The furrow that was formed around the ligature after she was dead is more in line with what you are suggesting than her having been hung. Where I disagree with you though is that I believe the cord was moved to that position after she had already been strangled. And that opinion, as I've stated, is mostly (but not only) because of the blanched area below the furrow which is at a perfect angle to indicate that she was hung.

The other problem I have with your scenario is the use at all of the paintbrush handle in any way other than to misdirect investigators.

I've asked before in other posts before (because I really don't know the answer), but have never heard with confidence, when and how was her hair either pulled out or cut from the paintbrush knot? Doesn't anyone else see the significance of that? The answer, if we could find out with any certainty, may put to rest the idea that this "garrote" was ever used.

Anyone?
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In the scenario whereby she was 'hanged horizontally' wouldn't you expect there to have been a V shape to the ligature, whether she is on her back or not?

I thought you established, and I agreed (is that a legal "we"?), that the way the knot was tied, when you pulled up on the 'handle', that it would not tighten? Therefore, I'm suggesting it's only purpose was to maintain the pressure.

I'll go back to my original idea and see if you can find any merit in it. How's about the ligature was first merely wrapped around her neck and both ends pulled in opposite directions by two hands? Following this, the knot/handle were secured to keep it tight until she expired. If this was done, while trying to maintain the pressure, it might account for the hair being tangled in the handle end.

MurriFlower said:

In the scenario whereby she was 'hanged horizontally' wouldn't you expect there to have been a V shape to the ligature, whether she is on her back or not?

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If I understand what you’re saying, it wouldn’t matter if she was lying down, or standing, or sitting. If the cord around her neck was pulled (by whatever means) vertically to her torso, there would still be a “V” pattern (understanding that the “V” is imaginary -- that is, it’s not necessarily present because it is where the knot and adjacent cord is being pulled away from the neck and therefore not applying pressure to the skin). What is not possible is for her to be on her back preventing it from being pulled away and putting the pressure on her throat.

I thought you established, and I agreed (is that a legal "we"?), that the way the knot was tied, when you pulled up on the 'handle', that it would not tighten? Therefore, I'm suggesting it's only purpose was to maintain the pressure.

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I think what I said, at least what I meant anyway, was that the stick served no purpose in the way it was tied to the ligature. IOW, it couldn’t have been used to twist the cord to tighten it, and it couldn’t be used to tighten it like a tourniquet. The knot on the cord around her neck was some type of slipknot. When the tail was pulled, it would have tightened the ligature around her neck -- regardless of how it was pulled; whether it was pulled by the cord itself, by some type of handle, or by her partial suspension from something overhead. But again, how could the paintbrush (the “handle”) have been pulled if her hair is entangled in the knot?

I'll go back to my original idea and see if you can find any merit in it.

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Do you have your entire theory posted anywhere?

How's about the ligature was first merely wrapped around her neck and both ends pulled in opposite directions by two hands?

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Possible, but that wouldn’t account for the blanched area on her neck in the autopsy photos that are at an upward angle.

Following this, the knot/handle were secured to keep it tight until she expired. If this was done, while trying to maintain the pressure, it might account for the hair being tangled in the handle end.

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The hair in the knot is what indicates to me that the “handle” was never pulled, tightened, twisted, or used in any way. It was added after she was already dead (IMO), only for staging. Now, if you can come up with a reason that an intruder would do that, I would certainly like to hear it, and I would be open to considering other options.

As I said before, I really don’t want to think that anyone in the family caused this, but that’s what the evidence tells me. You tell me a better scenario. I haven’t heard one yet, but I would love to.
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otg said:

If I understand what you’re saying, it wouldn’t matter if she was lying down, or standing, or sitting. If the cord around her neck was pulled (by whatever means) vertically to her torso, there would still be a “V” pattern (understanding that the “V” is imaginary -- that is, it’s not necessarily present because it is where the knot and adjacent cord is being pulled away from the neck and therefore not applying pressure to the skin). What is not possible is for her to be on her back preventing it from being pulled away and putting the pressure on her throat.



I think what I said, at least what I meant anyway, was that the stick served no purpose in the way it was tied to the ligature. IOW, it couldn’t have been used to twist the cord to tighten it, and it couldn’t be used to tighten it like a tourniquet. The knot on the cord around her neck was some type of slipknot. When the tail was pulled, it would have tightened the ligature around her neck -- regardless of how it was pulled; whether it was pulled by the cord itself, by some type of handle, or by her partial suspension from something overhead. But again, how could the paintbrush (the “handle”) have been pulled if her hair is entangled in the knot?



Do you have your entire theory posted anywhere?



Possible, but that wouldn’t account for the blanched area on her neck in the autopsy photos that are at an upward angle.



The hair in the knot is what indicates to me that the “handle” was never pulled, tightened, twisted, or used in any way. It was added after she was already dead (IMO), only for staging. Now, if you can come up with a reason that an intruder would do that, I would certainly like to hear it, and I would be open to considering other options.

As I said before, I really don’t want to think that anyone in the family caused this, but that’s what the evidence tells me. You tell me a better scenario. I haven’t heard one yet, but I would love to.
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The knot on the cord around her neck was some type of slipknot. When the tail was pulled, it would have tightened the ligature around her neck -- regardless of how it was pulled; whether it was pulled by the cord itself, by some type of handle, or by her partial suspension from something overhead.

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I couldn't get it to work for me. The only way I could tighten it was by pushing down on the knot. However, it would 'stay put' once tightened if I kept up pressure on the 'handle' end.

otg said:

The hair in the knot is what indicates to me that the “handle” was never pulled, tightened, twisted, or used in any way. It was added after she was already dead (IMO), only for staging. Now, if you can come up with a reason that an intruder would do that, I would certainly like to hear it, and I would be open to considering other options.

As I said before, I really don’t want to think that anyone in the family caused this, but that’s what the evidence tells me. You tell me a better scenario. I haven’t heard one yet, but I would love to.
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otg,
Some time ago, in discussion with another rmember, using similar analysis I came to the same conclusion. With one additional proviso: had the stick been twisted then JonBenet's hair would have been torn, at the roots, from her head. If she had been conscious she would have screamed and struggled.

In the autopsy and at the crime-scene there is no record of JonBenet's hair being found, so it was not pulled from her scalp.

hence the ligature plus paintbrush handle is staging, plain and simple. So the question for all IDI theories is: what is the intruder intending to achieve by staging a crime-scene?


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MurriFlower said:

I couldn't get it to work for me. The only way I could tighten it was by pushing down on the knot. However, it would 'stay put' once tightened if I kept up pressure on the 'handle' end.

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Murri, let me help you with your theory in the way the slipknot could be tightened.

Assuming that the ligature is not tight around the neck to begin with, and if the knot is at ~one quarter of the circumference away from the direction the tail is being pulled, and the tail is pulled with sufficient force to cause the loop not to slip around, and if the tail is being pulled away from the knot and not with it, the slipknot will tighten.

I know that seems like a lot of “if’s”, but basically if the circumstances are right, it would work.
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UKGuy said:

otg,
Some time ago, in discussion with another member, using similar analysis I came to the same conclusion. With one additional proviso: had the stick been twisted then JonBenet's hair would have been torn, at the roots, from her head. If she had been conscious she would have screamed and struggled.

In the autopsy and at the crime-scene there is no record of JonBenet's hair being found, so it was not pulled from her scalp.

hence the ligature plus paintbrush handle is staging, plain and simple. So the question for all IDI theories is: what is the intruder intending to achieve by staging a crime-scene?

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Exactly, UKGuy, exactly. Or should I, can I say... Elementary, my dear Watson. (I always wanted to be able to say that. I just wish now that I could say the butler did it.)
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Toltec said:

Speaking of hanging...weren't JonBenet's feet dirty??

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I think they were ,there's a statement about it in one of the books.I remember people talking about it because it could mean JB was alive,standing on her feet down in the basement.

otg said:

Exactly, UKGuy, exactly. Or should I, can I say... Elementary, my dear Watson. (I always wanted to be able to say that. I just wish now that I could say the butler did it.)
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otg,
:dance:

footnote: I think it was this feature of the ligature that allowed me to reject BlueCrab's theory regarding Erotic Asphyxiation.


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UKGuy said:

In the autopsy and at the crime-scene there is no record of JonBenet's hair being found, so it was not pulled from her scalp.

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There was was quite a bit of JonBenet's hair in the cord wrappings of the paintbrush stick. It looks like the hair got entangled as the stager was wrapping the cord around the stick. Do you think the coroner had to cut off this hair in order to remove the garrote?

UKGuy said:

hence the ligature plus paintbrush handle is staging, plain and simple.

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There is no question about that imo.

madeleine said:

I think they were ,there's a statement about it in one of the books.I remember people talking about it because it could mean JB was alive,standing on her feet down in the basement.

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madeleine,

Material on JonBenet's feet was described as lint which might mean she was in her bed prior to her death, since lint can be the debri from cotton or linen sheets?


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rashomon said:

There was was quite a bit of JonBenet's hair in the cord wrappings of the paintbrush stick. It looks like the hair got entangled as the stager was wrapping the cord around the stick. Do you think the coroner had to cut off this hair in order to remove the garrote?

There is no question about that imo.

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rashomon,

Do you think the coroner had to cut off this hair in order to remove the garrote?

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I reckon so. If we can reach the conclusion of staging simply considering the ligature, if you then add Coroner Meyer's remarks regarding digital penetration and sexual contact to this aspect then surely at the autopsy Coroner Meyer must have reached a similar conclusion! Although his autopsy report does not reflect this. I think his written technical report would make for interesting reading?

Kaybug said:

I also followed this story from way back when. I just don't see Patsy Ramsey killing Jon Benet, if for no other reason than Jon Benet was Patsy's pride and joy and she was following in her Mother's footsteps in beauty pagents.

My opinion only.

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Sadly, parents, even mothers, can and DO sometimes kill their children. Susan Smith loved her boys, too. Yet she pushed her car into water with them strapped into their car seats and drowned them.
That is exactly how Patsy got away with it- because of people not being able to believe a mother could kill a child she loved. First of all, this was not a premeditated murder, and I believe (as do many) that IF Patsy killed JB it was in a rage and she did not mean to kill her. Second, as a cancer patient with stage 4 ovarian cancer, she likely knew her own death may come at any time and she'd be with her daughter again. And third, Patsy may have not killed JB at all but did cover up for someone who had.

JB's hair was not pulled out. If it had been, the root and probably some (probably miniscule) scalp tissue would have been attached. Besides, the coroner said he had to cut JB's hair in order to separate the garrote from her neck, so the most plausible theory for me is that the garrote was made right on her, and her hair was tangled in the cord at that time, and as it was pulled tight. IMO she was unconscious already from her head bash and was lying still as she was strangled, not feeling the hair being pulled by the garrote.

AS far as the livor mortis- it takes about 10-20 minutes to FORM after death, but lasts much longer of course. She need not have been dead that long for the lone white mark to have formed, but there was a longer window of time for the white mark to form before the blanching stage of livor had progressed to the non-blanching (fixed) stage.

Re the lint or debris on her feet- I have never seen any report indicating that whatever was found on her feet was ever tested against the material on the WC floor or any other area of the basement. If anyone has, please post it of you can. This was VERY important- it would have PROVEN she was indeed awake at some point after they returned home from the White's and was standing in the basement. And another absolutely unforgivable lapse if these tests were never done.

otg said:

Murri, let me help you with your theory in the way the slipknot could be tightened.

Assuming that the ligature is not tight around the neck to begin with, and if the knot is at ~one quarter of the circumference away from the direction the tail is being pulled, and the tail is pulled with sufficient force to cause the loop not to slip around, and if the tail is being pulled away from the knot and not with it, the slipknot will tighten.

I know that seems like a lot of “if’s”, but basically if the circumstances are right, it would work.
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Playing again with my cord and poor old foot.

Yes, the knot could be tightened (that is pushed down) by hand or as you say by pulling against it by positioning it to the side. This still doesn't explain the 'handle' and how she was strangled.

It was suggested so often that it was twisted to tighten the ligature, I decided to try it. If you twist the cord for long enough, it becomes straight and round like a pipe, and in doing so, the distance between the knot and the cord becomes much less. Then a funny thing happens, the twisted cord can spin within the slip knot and the cord is able to be tightened. Eureka!! :woohoo:

UKGuy said:

madeleine,

Material on JonBenet's feet was described as lint which might mean she was in her bed prior to her death, since lint can be the debri from cotton or linen sheets?


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Sure, could be. Lint from a towel (or JR's bathrobe), lint from whatever was used to wipe her down. Any of these things. I have never seen this lint described in any more specific way (color, fabric, etc) yet it is one of the most important clues in the case. Was she standing UP in that basement in her longjohns and bare feet THAT night after the return from the White's? Testing the "lint" and sourcing it to a basement surface would PROVE just that.

DeeDee249 said:

JB's hair was not pulled out. If it had been, the root and probably some (probably miniscule) scalp tissue would have been attached. Besides, the coroner said he had to cut JB's hair in order to separate the garrote from her neck, so the most plausible theory for me is that the garrote was made right on her, and her hair was tangled in the cord at that time, and as it was pulled tight. IMO she was unconscious already from her head bash and was lying still as she was strangled, not feeling the hair being pulled by the garrote.

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DD, I believe you are right about the coroner having to cut the hair to remove the paintbrush knot, but that’s a big assumption to make without a source. It isn’t mentioned in the AR, so where did you find that Meyers said that? It’s very important, because if true, it completely blows out of the water any supposition that the thing was used as a garrote of any sort (which of course I feel it was not) -- even is she was unconscious.

AS far as the livor mortis- it takes about 10-20 minutes to FORM after death, but lasts much longer of course. She need not have been dead that long for the lone white mark to have formed, but there was a longer window of time for the white mark to form before the blanching stage of livor had progressed to the non-blanching (fixed) stage.

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Yup. Agreed.

Re the lint or debris on her feet- I have never seen any report indicating that whatever was found on her feet was ever tested against the material on the WC floor or any other area of the basement. If anyone has, please post it of you can. This was VERY important- it would have PROVEN she was indeed awake at some point after they returned home from the White's and was standing in the basement. And another absolutely unforgivable lapse if these tests were never done.

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From the AR:
“EVIDENCE: Items turned over to the Boulder Police Department as evidence include: Fibers and hair from clothing and body surfaces...”

We don’t know, and probably won’t find out if that included from her feet; but certainly it should have been, and probably (IMO) was. If it did include the fibers from the bottom of her feet, we don’t know whether or not it was matched with anything.

But I agree that if JonBenet had fibers or dust on the bottom of her feet that matched the floor surface of the basement, it would be very important.
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