17 y/o Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #20

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gxm said:
I'm not sure about that analogy. A person who runs onto a speedway during a race has the reasonable expectation that he will be run over. A citizen following another citizen for whatever reason, whether they find that person suspicious or whether they just want to ask them where they bought their jacket, has the reasonable expectation to not be attacked. Further, GZ claims he had already "left the speedway" and was no longer following TM. He claims to have been walking back to his car.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
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Anyone carrying a gun has an expection that their life could be in danger or why would they feel they had to carry a gun. Certainly not for cosmetic reasons. You carry a gun for protection. If you see who you feel is a suspect your have an expection that that person could be dangerous so the analogy is spot on. GZ was not just out for a stroll he was actively pursuing TM. jmo
 
Bottle Cap said:
I don't agree with the bolded part (BBM). If your perception is that someone's presence is enough of a problem to warrant a call to 911, your perception is also necessarily that the person is some sort of danger - to themselves, to others, to property. Otherwise you'd not bother calling 911. Last I checked, 911 is for emergencies, not because you want to know where a jacket came from.
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I was likening this to any other reason someone might follow someone else. Much as GZ getting out of his truck was likened to someone running out onto a speedway. There are a variety of reasons someone might follow another person, and most of them are legal. GZ was, apparently, within the law when he attempted to follow TM, or went to look for an address, or whatever he claims to have been doing. He was walking on the common area of the condo grounds. It is reasonable to believe that one can walk to one's car without being attacked. It is not equivalent to jumping onto a racetrack.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
impatientredhead said:
The analogy doesn't work legally because you have no legal standing to be on the race track. GZ was not committing a crime walking in the rain that night anymore than TM was.

I personally believe you should not have to retreat in your own home, but I think outside of your home retreating should be mandatory if it is an option elsewhere.
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GZ may not have been committing a crime walking in the rain, but I have to ask myself how logical his thinking was...

He had already told the dispatcher that TM looked suspicious, and that something was wrong with him - he was probably on drugs. IMHO, if TM really had been suspicious and on drugs, then logic would say that TM would probably be dangerous.

So if that's his belief - that something was wrong with TM - then why get out of the vehicle at all to confront him, knowing that LE was on it's way? Common sense would tell me, at least, not to get into a confrontation with someone who may be dangerous, when LE is coming.

JMHO
 
gxm said:
I was likening this to any other reason someone might follow someone else. Much as GZ getting out of his truck was likened to someone running out onto a speedway. There are a variety of reasons someone might follow another person, and most of them are legal. GZ was, apparently, within the law when he attempted to follow TM, or went to look for an address, or whatever he claims to have been doing. He was walking on the common area of the condo grounds. It is reasonable to believe that one can walk to one's car without being attacked. It is not equivalent to jumping onto a racetrack.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
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Yes it is.

And it's also reasonable to believe that one can walk home without being attacked. We have only Mr. Zimmerman's word that he was, in fact, attacked as he returned to his car.
 
Concerned Papa said:
I've been having trouble pinning down where the body was located. Seems like the SFD rescue dispatcher should know, doesn't it?

"Lying in the grass.....in the backyard of 2831 Retreat View Circle"

A short snip of the full recording:
Trayvon Martin's Body Location 2 Per Sanford Fire and Rescue - YouTube

That's a long ways from where George and his dad told us it all went down. :waitasec:
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The police reports mention 2831 Retreat View Circle and 1231 Twin Trees Lane. If you look at the Seminole County Property Appriaser's map of the plat for The Retreat at Twin Lakes, those two properties share a corner:

http://www.woodswell.com/images/Trayvon/body-addresses.jpg

The image is from a screen shot of the Seminole County Property Appraiser map of the subdivision. The red highlight of the two properties were added by me.

169 = 1231 Twin Trees Land
141 = 2831 Retreat View Circle.

In the image, the buildings are shown as separated but 167-171 are conjoined and 138-143 are conjoined.

I get the impression the body was found pretty much in the center of the area between the two rows of townhouses.

I don't know how to post pictures so they show up in my messages - maybe it's because they are not on a picture sharing site but are on my own website. If you want to copy and repost any of my images, you may.

IMO, JMO, etc.
 
artsy1 said:
GZ may not have been committing a crime walking in the rain, but I have to ask myself how logical his thinking was...

He had already told the dispatcher that TM looked suspicious, and that something was wrong with him - he was probably on drugs. IMHO, if TM really had been suspicious and on drugs, then logic would say that TM would probably be dangerous.

So if that's his belief - that something was wrong with TM - then why get out of the vehicle at all to confront him, knowing that LE was on it's way? Common sense would tell me, at least, not to get into a confrontation with someone who may be dangerous, when LE is coming.

JMHO
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The 9mm may have given him a sense of security and confidence that he could "handle" things just fine.
 
CHICANA said:
But the cowardly bad guys aren't going after cops, they're going after innocent people because of their skin color. What hypocrites. I just can't get the mind set.
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It's sad. Hate leads to hate, and around and around we go.

I believe the solution comes in three parts.

1. Admit that we have a problem that will not be solved by ignoring it
2. Discuss it without passion for anything other than justice
3. Refuse to accept intolerance from anyone, including our leaders, ourselves, our own friends, and family

In my opinion.
 
The one with the reasonable expectation not to be pursued, attacked or anything else would be Trayvon.

Trayvon had every right to be in that development, he had every right to go back and forth to the store, he had every right to be out at 7PM. Without being pursued, accosted or questioned by anyone not in LE, especially by someone carrying a loaded weapon who had already made an incorrect assumption that he was up to no good.

GZ made the CHOICE to go after him, GZ made the CHOICE to take his gun, Trayvon didn't initiate anything.

Carrying a loaded gun has responsibilities and consequences, GZ's own words showed his intent, the excuse that it makes everything GZ did ok, simply because he could, simply because it wasn't illegal to carry that gun, just doesn't fly, in my opinion. Trayvon was doing nothing illegal, Trayvon wasn't carrying a loaded weapon.

JMHO
 
Trayvon's dad was just on CNN with Suzanne Malveaux and simply stated it all. "If Mr. Zimmerman had just stayed in his car at the direction of the dispatcher, none of us would be here. We didn't want this, we didn't want the publicity, we want people to continue peacefully protest, we don't want violence". Classy parents, JMO
 
impatientredhead said:
Florida

2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE[20]

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
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Yes, but a jury can decide the "reasonably" part. What is "reasonable" to a paranoid psychotic, is not what is "reasonable" to the other 99.9% of society. I can not walk into a department store and see the last pair of beautiful Jimmy Choo's on the rack, have the woman coming from the opposite direction grab them, and because I "know" I will die without those shoes pull out my Glock 19 and shoot her and then claim SYG because to "me" it was life or death.
 
LambChop said:
Anyone carrying a gun has an expection that their life could be in danger or why would they feel they had to carry a gun. Certainly not for cosmetic reasons. You carry a gun for protection. If you see who you feel is a suspect your have an expection that that person could be dangerous so the analogy is spot on. GZ was not just out for a stroll he was actively pursuing TM. jmo
Click to expand...


BBM
I still don’t get it, unless someone is in the line of duty... Where are they going with a gun?
Where do these people live? That they need a gun?

OK in the woods you may encounter some strange animal on 2 or 4 legs.
But those who are not living in the woods where are they going with a gun?


Me think some have a Napoleon complex, makes them feel something, whatever it is... ;)
 
artsy1 said:
GZ may not have been committing a crime walking in the rain, but I have to ask myself how logical his thinking was...

He had already told the dispatcher that TM looked suspicious, and that something was wrong with him - he was probably on drugs. IMHO, if TM really had been suspicious and on drugs, then logic would say that TM would probably be dangerous.

So if that's his belief - that something was wrong with TM - then why get out of the vehicle at all to confront him, knowing that LE was on it's way? Common sense would tell me, at least, not to get into a confrontation with someone who may be dangerous, when LE is coming.

JMHO
Click to expand...

Jmo, GZ got out of his vehicle and persued TM because "these *advertiser censored****...always get away." And he was determined that this one would not get away. That's one of GZ's comments I remember most of all...they "always get away." JMO, MOO.
 
gxm said:
I was likening this to any other reason someone might follow someone else. Much as GZ getting out of his truck was likened to someone running out onto a speedway. There are a variety of reasons someone might follow another person, and most of them are legal. GZ was, apparently, within the law when he attempted to follow TM, or went to look for an address, or whatever he claims to have been doing. He was walking on the common area of the condo grounds. It is reasonable to believe that one can walk to one's car without being attacked. It is not equivalent to jumping onto a racetrack.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
Click to expand...

The problem is the facts, (1) where TM's body was found do not match; (2) the description of where GZ claims he was attacked on the cut through sidewalk where TM slammed GZ's head repeatedly until he had to shoot TM in fear for his life. TM's body was found yards away on grass not the sidewalk and no where near the cut through which makes it appear that GZ is not being entirely truthful about how they got into a fight. jmo
 
Velouria said:
BBM

Jayne Weintraub.

I just about :thud: when I heard her say something I agreed with for once!
Click to expand...
I agree with you Velouria...I never thought i would agree with Jayne Weintraub,I havent liked her since the Scott Peterson case....Usually i am yelling at the TV telling her to stuff it...IMHO
 
Velouria said:
Yes it is.

And it's also reasonable to believe that one can walk home without being attacked. We have only Mr. Zimmerman's word that he was, in fact, attacked as he returned to his car.
Click to expand...

But Trayvon didn't walk home - he was found dead near where GZ last saw him take off running. Why was he still in that area? It was raining so hard the life flight helicopters wouldn't come into the area - I don't understand why he didn't just go home and get out of the rain and away from a stranger he was mutually "staring" at. I can only imagine he was watching GZ, waiting for him to get off his phone to confront him. <modsnip>
 
songline said:
BBM
I still don’t get it, unless someone is in the line of duty... Where are they going with a gun?
Where do these people live? That they need a gun?

OK in the woods you may encounter some strange animal on 2 or 4 legs.
But those who are not living in the woods where are they going with a gun?


Me think some have a Napoleon complex, makes them feel something, whatever it is... ;)
Click to expand...

I agree, which leads me to question, if GZ really had been on his way to Target (as GZ's brother claims) and not patrolling that night, why did he need to take his gun to the store? :confused:
 
CHICANA said:
But the cowardly bad guys aren't going after cops, they're going after innocent people because of their skin color. What hypocrites. I just can't get the mind set.
Click to expand...

Intolerance has been the cause of wars, discontent, murder, and even annihilation. Hate only breeds more hate :( :( :(
All of it is none other than ignorance.

But I do not think this case was about color.
IMHO it was about 8 other robberies that made him intolerant of thieves.
Since the thieves have been described as young guys, he saw a young guy.
 
LambChop said:
Anyone carrying a gun has an expection that their life could be in danger or why would they feel they had to carry a gun. Certainly not for cosmetic reasons. You carry a gun for protection. If you see who you feel is a suspect your have an expection that that person could be dangerous so the analogy is spot on. GZ was not just out for a stroll he was actively pursuing TM. jmo
Click to expand...

I have absolutely no idea why anyone would carry a gun. But I'm sure the reasons are as varied as the people who carry them. According to GZ's story, he was looking for an address and he had stopped following TM. Given that he had lost sight of TM and was heading back to his car, he had no reason to expect to be jumped from behind.

You realize that equating the likelihood of getting run over on a speedway with the likelihood of GZ being attacked by TM requires that TM be as deadly as a clutch of roaring race cars. Yes? Unless, we're talking about Schrodinger's Nascar. IMO, it's a terrible analogy. And I believe that GZ should have stayed in his car. If anything, it's the exact opposite of the speedway analogy. GZ knew he was armed so he knew that he had the upper hand if any confrontation occurred. IMO, people who carry guns should bear more responsibility in the eyes of the law. Not, as it stands now, less responsibility.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
LambChop said:
The problem is the facts, (1) where TM's body was found do not match; (2) the description of where GZ claims he was attacked on the cut through sidewalk where TM slammed GZ's head repeatedly until he had to shoot TM in fear for his life. TM's body was found yards away on grass not the sidewalk and no where near the cut through which makes it appear that GZ is not being entirely truthful about how they got into a fight. jmo
Click to expand...

BEM: Does not match what? I've seen Tracy Martin pointing at one area, the ambulance was called to two different addresses, and GZ's father is saying something else. What I haven't seen is where the SPD said he was found. If you look on the map you will see a cut through between the buildings exactly where the ambulance was called to. IOW, we don't know those "facts".

BEM: We don't know whether his body was found on the grass or halfway on the grass - GZ, according to police reports, moved away from the sidewalk, so who knows. Those facts are what the SA is trying to sort through.

JMO
 
artsy1 said:
I agree, which leads me to question, if GZ really had been on his way to Target (as GZ's brother claims) and not patrolling that night, why did he need to take his gun to the store? :confused:
Click to expand...

I don't get it either. It's not like his gun would have helped him get a closer parking space, or front of the line privileges at checkout.

It may be that he brought it everywhere with him, 'cause ya never know when you'll see someone "suspicious".....:(
 
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