11 years ago this night...

Thanks Ames and Squishi-

Of course I do not mind, the story is in the Jury Room under "I need your prayers."

After so recently experiencing a sudden, tragic death, I know for sure - the way the Rams reacted is so abnormal. No one can say "Everyone is different when they grieve, either," not in that sense. No one would flee and leave their daughter like that, unless they had killed her. My brother sat in the driveway for over 4 hours til CSI, and the ME were out of the house. I know, because he spent much of that time on his cell phone with me. The poor guy had to find our brother and then wait for all that, because he would not leave until they did, not until my brother was taken to the morgue.

Eve

I never left our Mom when she passed away. I was there as she passed I was there, as they wheeled her out of her hospital room down the hall, down the elevator, into the "unseen" area of the hospital out into the daylight back of the hospital as she was loaded into the van that would take her to the Coronors office. They would not let me go with her any further. I was waiting when she arrived the following morning at the funeral home. How they could leave JonBenet like some broken doll discarded I cannot even fathom. Eve I truly am sorry for your loss. You have my deepest sympathies.

Solace said:

Possibly Daffodil.

But has anyone heard of Patsy putting up a struggle such as most of us would.

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Not to speak ill of the dead, for that is not my nature, but Patsy certainly put up many fights in her life agaisnt or for the things which were important to her: competitive pageants, her initial fight to find an ovarian cancer drug trial program, her many flights back and forth for treatment alone, her long remission, and her length of survival after the finding of metastatic disease approx. 2 years before she died. She also fought against LE and the media with venom and vitrol.

Patsy COULD fight, but I don't think she ever fought for JonBenet on the night she died, but exactly the opposite.

Squishified said:

I found an interesting link: http://books.google.com/books?id=D5...ts=qw_kT_IUis&sig=RgiOQmlevVvxK8D14QtA2eTdVVE

From the link: Women who molest children under the age of 6, usually their own children. This is one of the largest groups of female offenders.
These are women whose identities are so amalgamated with their children's that they cannot function as mothers.
Rather than nurture children, as healthy mothers do, they use children to meet their own emotional and sexual needs.
Tragically, these women often have sadistic tendencies and take twisted pleasure in hurting children.

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Someone had hurt JonBenet before the night of her death. I have always struggled with who the abuser was, and my list has been a short one which didn't include Patsy. Your description causes me to rethink the possibility. IF Patsy was abused or somehow degraded sexually as a child as I have wondered about due to some statements from Nedra and also from her sister's demeanor, then I think she didn't learn the boundaries or what was proper. If these things are true, which we probably will never know now for certain, there is a very high probability that Patsy would see her children as sexual objects instead of her babies who needed her protection.

I keep thinking about one very strange incident as told by the Ramseys in DOI. When Patsy was in labor with JonBenet, the two adult Ramseys went off and left pre-schooler Burke alone in the house at night. Sure, they thought a family member was coming, and he was not harmed, but they had no foreknowledge that the family member wouldn't have a car accident or other event which kept them from reaching Burke in a hurry that night.
How many of us, faced with the same situation in 1990, would have simply picked the little boy up and taken him to the hospital? It was summer, he was in no jeopardy at Northside Hospital and actually might have enjoyed being a part of seeing his little sister soon after her birth. The atmosphere in hospitals at that time and since has been very sibling friendly.

I think their editor missed a clear sign of child neglect as it relates to Burke at an early age. Only Burke can know if he was sexually abused in any way at any time. I pray not.

SeekingJana said:

Not to speak ill of the dead, for that is not my nature, but Patsy certainly put up many fights in her life agaisnt or for the things which were important to her: competitive pageants, her initial fight to find an ovarian cancer drug trial program, her many flights back and forth for treatment alone, her long remission, and her length of survival after the finding of metastatic disease approx. 2 years before she died. She also fought against LE and the media with venom and vitrol.

Patsy COULD fight, but I don't think she ever fought for JonBenet on the night she died, but exactly the opposite.

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Good point, SeekingJana.
Indeed, Patsy had fighting spirit in abundance, and it is exactly the fact that she did NOT use it when it came to her daughter's tragic and violent death which should raise a thousand red flags.
Like another poster said it so well, if JonBenet had in fact been killed by an intruder, Patsy would have had police chief Koby in a choke hold shortly after the body was found, demanding action. She would have been Beth Twitty and Elizabeth Smart's father X20. A fighter type like Patsy would have been one of the fiercest parents ever to demand that LE do everything in their power to find the killer. Patsy would have raised hell in the BPD if she felt the investigation was goig too slow. But Patsy did nothing of the sort.
Had there really been "a killer out there", no way would Patsy have sat there five days after her daughter's murder, telling the TV audience that she was not angry at the killer and wanted to go on with her life.

eve said:

Thanks Ames and Squishi-

Of course I do not mind, the story is in the Jury Room under "I need your prayers."

After so recently experiencing a sudden, tragic death, I know for sure - the way the Rams reacted is so abnormal. No one can say "Everyone is different when they grieve, either," not in that sense. No one would flee and leave their daughter like that, unless they had killed her. My brother sat in the driveway for over 4 hours til CSI, and the ME were out of the house. I know, because he spent much of that time on his cell phone with me. The poor guy had to find our brother and then wait for all that, because he would not leave until they did, not until my brother was taken to the morgue.


Eve

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And THAT is the way that it SHOULD be!!!

That's exactly the way it should be.

I think the one thing that bothers me more than the Rs picking up and taking asap, practically anxious to leave the house and body behind, is that they went straight to the Fernie's, and did not go to the White's to pick Burke up. Instead Burke was driven over to the Fernie's to meet up with his parents later on after they had already gotten there.

What the hell...what parent wouldn't immediately go to get the other child when one of their children is murdered at home by some intruder? What parent would even allow a child to leave their house without them when they awaken to an RN on the staircase and an empty bed in their daughter's room?

I can probably see leaving the dead child behind when told to clear out, as harsh as it sounds, she is dead after all, and as such, free of any pain or suffering...but to leave and NOT go directly to gather up the remaining live child, to kiss him, hug him, console him, protect him, just plain revel in the fact that he's still alive and here despite losing the other child? How could they just go to the Fernie's and not get him on the way?

All I can figure is, they knew Burke was in no danger from any intruding killer, stranger or acquaintance. They knew JonBenet was dead, and because they were the cause of the death and the staging, they ran away as fast as they could. They would have gone all the way to another state if they hadn't been stopped from doing so. Instead they go straight to the home of friends, leaving Burke vulnerable to whoever killed JB while they go eat Valium with friends and try to block out the horror of the last 24 hours...but JR still has the presence of mind to lawyer up with a firm connected to the DA.

How do people excuse this very telling behavior? Being in shock and grief and mourning does not explain acting like that.

Nuisanceposter said:

That's exactly the way it should be.

I think the one thing that bothers me more than the Rs picking up and taking asap, practically anxious to leave the house and body behind, is that they went straight to the Fernie's, and did not go to the White's to pick Burke up. Instead Burke was driven over to the Fernie's to meet up with his parents later on after they had already gotten there.

What the hell...what parent wouldn't immediately go to get the other child when one of their children is murdered at home by some intruder? What parent would even allow a child to leave their house without them when they awaken to an RN on the staircase and an empty bed in their daughter's room?

I can probably see leaving the dead child behind when told to clear out, as harsh as it sounds, she is dead after all, and as such, free of any pain or suffering...but to leave and NOT go directly to gather up the remaining live child, to kiss him, hug him, console him, protect him, just plain revel in the fact that he's still alive and here despite losing the other child? How could they just go to the Fernie's and not get him on the way?

All I can figure is, they knew Burke was in no danger from any intruding killer, stranger or acquaintance. They knew JonBenet was dead, and because they were the cause of the death and the staging, they ran away as fast as they could. They would have gone all the way to another state if they hadn't been stopped from doing so. Instead they go straight to the home of friends, leaving Burke vulnerable to whoever killed JB while they go eat Valium with friends and try to block out the horror of the last 24 hours...but JR still has the presence of mind to lawyer up with a firm connected to the DA.

How do people excuse this very telling behavior? Being in shock and grief and mourning does not explain acting like that.

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And to say..."Burke, did you hear or see ANYTHING? Please son, this is very, VERY important!!"

Ames said:

And to say..."Burke, did you hear or see ANYTHING? Please son, this is very, VERY important!!"

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From DOI pg. 11, hb version-

Both of us race to Burke's room at the far end of the of the second floor and find him apparently still asleep. Best not to arouse him until we figure out what's happening here, I think. He's better off asleep for now. I step into the hall.

My translation: We're better off that he's apparently asleep for now.


-Tea

The fact that the Rs were actually trying to leave the state that morning, leaving their daughter's body behind, even more than the fact that they left her body alone in their home, shows me just how much they had distanced themselves from her. This is exactly something a parent would do after they have killed their child. They distanced themselves from every part of that night. From what their daughter wore, to what she ate (or didn't eat), even denying ownership of the most mundane household items (pineapple, spoon, bowl, kleenex, flashlight, even UNDERWEAR!)
They couldn't get away from her fast enough. They couldn't face her, even dead.
Rashomon is right- given PR's bossy,loud in-your-face personality and JR's money and powerful connections- if they had truly been innocent, they would have put all their resources and energy into finding the killer. They would have badgered the police every day. They'd be constantly in the faces of LE. They'd have INSISTED the FBI get involved. JBR's face would be on every milk carton, billboard and John Walsh would be begged to feature this case.
Instead, they tried to get away as fast as they could. They stymied LE at every turn. They pushed JBR out of their minds and hearts from the moment she was killed. And BR- he acted like he never even HAD a sister. Still does.

icedtea4me said:

From DOI pg. 11, hb version-

Both of us race to Burke's room at the far end of the of the second floor and find him apparently still asleep. Best not to arouse him until we figure out what's happening here, I think. He's better off asleep for now. I step into the hall.

My translation: We're better off that he's apparently asleep for now.


-Tea

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I agree with your translation. What sort of people, find a ransom note, and their daughter missing from her bedroom....and do NOT wake up their oldest child, that was sleeping just feet away in another room...to ask them if they saw or heard ANYTHING....anything at all??? That is just weird to me....something that only guilty parents would do. I know good and well...that if it had of been a real kidnapping....the Ramsey's would have been jerking Burke's butt out of that bed so fast, that it would have made your head spin, and then they would have questioned him over and over again.

DeeDee249 said:

The fact that the Rs were actually trying to leave the state that morning, leaving their daughter's body behind, even more than the fact that they left her body alone in their home, shows me just how much they had distanced themselves from her. This is exactly something a parent would do after they have killed their child. They distanced themselves from every part of that night. From what their daughter wore, to what she ate (or didn't eat), even denying ownership of the most mundane household items (pineapple, spoon, bowl, kleenex, flashlight, even UNDERWEAR!)
They couldn't get away from her fast enough. They couldn't face her, even dead.
Rashomon is right- given PR's bossy,loud in-your-face personality and JR's money and powerful connections- if they had truly been innocent, they would have put all their resources and energy into finding the killer. They would have badgered the police every day. They'd be constantly in the faces of LE. They'd have INSISTED the FBI get involved. JBR's face would be on every milk carton, billboard and John Walsh would be begged to feature this case.
Instead, they tried to get away as fast as they could. They stymied LE at every turn. They pushed JBR out of their minds and hearts from the moment she was killed. And BR- he acted like he never even HAD a sister. Still does.

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Yes, he does act like she never existed. He was asked by his doctor, to draw a picture of his family...not long after the murder...and the completely left out JB. It was just him, his mom and dad...which his dr. found odd, because he said that YEARS after a sibings death, that children usually still include them in drawings.

I remember reading about that session with the psychiatrist and BR. Chidren do react in unexpected ways to emotional trauma. But as far as that drawing -BR was already 10 years old. Old enough to know that dead siblings are no longer part of everyday family life. Leaving his dead sister our of the drawing isn't that surprising to me, with a child of his age. Now, if he were younger, 4,5,6, even 7 years old, then I could see the doctor's point.

What raises even more of a red flag to me is his behavior, both immediately and shortly after the death. That very morning, he may not have known exactly what happened, but he knew SOMETHING serious had occurred. According to witnesses, he calmly left for the White's, carrying Christmas presents with him. He never asked where his sister was, he never asked why they weren't flying to Charlevoix, why they weren't going on the Disney cruise. (THAT would be something any kid would be upset about).
That alone is SO suspicious to me....he said nothing. Almost like he KNEW his sister was dead, so of course he understood they wouldn't be going away.

DeeDee249 said:

I remember reading about that session with the psychiatrist and BR. Chidren do react in unexpected ways to emotional trauma. But as far as that drawing -BR was already 10 years old. Old enough to know that dead siblings are no longer part of everyday family life. Leaving his dead sister our of the drawing isn't that surprising to me, with a child of his age. Now, if he were younger, 4,5,6, even 7 years old, then I could see the doctor's point.

What raises even more of a red flag to me is his behavior, both immediately and shortly after the death. That very morning, he may not have known exactly what happened, but he knew SOMETHING serious had occurred. According to witnesses, he calmly left for the White's, carrying Christmas presents with him. He never asked where his sister was, he never asked why they weren't flying to Charlevoix, why they weren't going on the Disney cruise. (THAT would be something any kid would be upset about).
That alone is SO suspicious to me....he said nothing. Almost like he KNEW his sister was dead, so of course he understood they wouldn't be going away.

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I totally agree with you. It was his new Ninendo 64 that he took with him to the Whites. Obviously playing videos was more important to him than his sister.

eve, I'm with you too.

Ames said:

I agree with your translation. What sort of people, find a ransom note, and their daughter missing from her bedroom....and do NOT wake up their oldest child, that was sleeping just feet away in another room...to ask them if they saw or heard ANYTHING....anything at all??? That is just weird to me....something that only guilty parents would do. I know good and well...that if it had of been a real kidnapping....the Ramsey's would have been jerking Burke's butt out of that bed so fast, that it would have made your head spin, and then they would have questioned him over and over again.

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Very, VERY good point.

Just how much does that young man know or remember??

ETA

In thinking about this too, I recall how it was the night my own sister almost perished. Sister was severly handicapped. As is typical with most bed bound paitents, she was easily taken down by colds that would rage into upper resp. infections. in no time flat.
The night she almost died of such an episode, my parents did not wake me as the last thing they would have needed was a grief stricken child getting in the way of the doctor and the responding EMT's. (yes, I slept through the whole affair, I was and still am that sound of a sleeper)

You see, in the midst of a crisis, you can't be dealing with a kid wanting to know what is going on ect. Now, had they truely discovered JB missing that morning for real, of course they would have gotten him up wanting to see if he knew or had heard anything.
But they don't. They're in full crisis mode and do NOT need the added pressure of a confused child.

I had never thought of this point before. Yet another tic mark on the side of "the Ramsey's did it".

Trocaria said:

Very, VERY good point.

Just how much does that young man know or remember??

ETA

In thinking about this too, I recall how it was the night my own sister almost perished. Sister was severly handicapped. As is typical with most bed bound paitents, she was easily taken down by colds that would rage into upper resp. infections. in no time flat.
The night she almost died of such an episode, my parents did not wake me as the last thing they would have needed was a grief stricken child getting in the way of the doctor and the responding EMT's. (yes, I slept through the whole affair, I was and still am that sound of a sleeper)

You see, in the midst of a crisis, you can't be dealing with a kid wanting to know what is going on ect. Now, had they truely discovered JB missing that morning for real, of course they would have gotten him up wanting to see if he knew or had heard anything.
But they don't. They're in full crisis mode and do NOT need the added pressure of a confused child.

I had never thought of this point before. Yet another tic mark on the side of "the Ramsey's did it".

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Glad that I could help you with that "tic mark"...I am RDI all the way. Right, if she had of been TRULY kidnapped....they wouldn't have hesitated to wake Burke up, to question him...instead of just "letting him sleep"...I guess he needed his rest. Patsy: "John...JonBenét has been kidnapped...What should we DO? Should we wake up Burke to see if he heard or saw ANYTHING? " John: " Wake Burke up? Are you kidding? Nahhh....he is a growing boy, he needs his rest. I am sure that he is very tired from all the festivities, and last night's party. No, we just need to let him sleep". DUHHHHH

Ames said:

Glad that I could help you with that "tic mark"...I am RDI all the way. Right, if she had of been TRULY kidnapped....they wouldn't have hesitated to wake Burke up, to question him...instead of just "letting him sleep"...I guess he needed his rest. Patsy: "John...JonBenét has been kidnapped...What should we DO? Should we wake up Burke to see if he heard or saw ANYTHING? " John: " Wake Burke up? Are you kidding? Nahhh....he is a growing boy, he needs his rest. I am sure that he is very tired from all the festivities, and last night's party. No, we just need to let him sleep". DUHHHHH

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Seeing it written out like that makes it seem all the more ridiculous, doesn't it?
Hmmmm...let's see...what to do? Let our son sleep OR see if he saw or heard anything that might help us GET OUR KIDNAPPED DAUGHTER BACK!
Oh, well- we know she's not really kidnapped anyway, she's safe and sound in the basement in eternal sleep herself, the only witness to her horrible last moments of life, so WE'RE OK!

DeeDee249 said:

Seeing it written out like that makes it seem all the more ridiculous, doesn't it?
Hmmmm...let's see...what to do? Let our son sleep OR see if he saw or heard anything that might help us GET OUR KIDNAPPED DAUGHTER BACK!
Oh, well- we know she's not really kidnapped anyway, she's safe and sound in the basement in eternal sleep herself, the only witness to her horrible last moments of life, so WE'RE OK!

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Yeah, like they had a scale...on one hand...we have letting Burke get his precious sleep, and on the other hand...we have waking him up to see if he heard or saw anything that may help us get JonBenét back. What in the world should we DO? Decisions, decisions.....

Ames said:

I totally agree with you. It was his new Ninendo 64 that he took with him to the Whites. Obviously playing videos was more important to him than his sister.

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and maybe JR wanted him to be distracted as well.as in,forget about anything you may have heard last night,just have fun and play your game !