The Doe Network, Part 2: Who is Princess Blue?

richandfamous said:

Thanks Lion, yes, I just went back and edited my post after I checked the spreadsheet.



OT: you better get some rest girl!

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OT: Once I get my beautiful Jole' home and settled and so some other things I will get some rest. Thanks, rich.

Lion

Jaded said:

You're so correct about keeping notes. We've got so much info already that just having things organized is making it much easier to keep track. I'm a stickler for note taking.

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Yes, gosh, can you imagine where we would be had we not decided early on to become organized? As it is I am already finding it a challenge at times to go back and find statements I thought I recalled reading or info I thought I saw posted somewhere.

Thank you for your kind words about Jole'. This is such a heart break, but my family and friends have been so caring and supportive. I am truly grateful that Jole' will make it and that I am lucky enough to have caring family and friends.

Lion

Lion, I'm so sorry to hear about Jole' and the puppies . Please know you are in my thoughts.

RKnowley said:

Lion, I'm so sorry to hear about Jole' and the puppies . Please know you are in my thoughts.

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Thank you, RKnowley.

Lion

LionRun said:

Thanks RKnowley.

Lion

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Yes, Rosser is with the Brazoria County Sheriff's Office, and Sgt. Coffman is Manvel P.D. But, you giuys probabaly already figured that out!

Who am I again? LOL! That's how much I have figured out!

sloane said:

Yes, Rosser is with the Brazoria County Sheriff's Office, and Sgt. Coffman is Manvel P.D. But, you giuys probabaly already figured that out!

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RKnowley said:

Who am I again? LOL! That's how much I have figured out!

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Not at all, RKnowley! In fact, I have been wanting to compliment you on your computer skills (and many others, as well). You mentioned something awhile back about checking some address or format or something at the TX MPCH site to see if their pictures were set on a rotation...I didn't even know what you meant! I have much to learn. I might be able to help with CJ stuff, forensics, MPs, contacts...I have my hand in a lot of fires, but computers ain't one of them! Thank goodness for you guys!

Jaded said:

Absolutely. Did you see the post on someoneknowsme.com with the link to the artist sketch site? Some of them are accurate, and some of them look nothing like the missing person. I think it all depends on the artist.

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I completely agree...unfortunately there is not much formal standardized trianing in the area of forensic art, certainly no degree offered by a univ. There are lots of seminars, some much better than others. I'm afraid some ppl. take a couple of workshops, label themselves a forensic artist and have at it, unfortunately producing less than satisfactory drawings and sculptures. Then again, there are many times that there may not be much for them to work with in terms of remains, or reports... it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. you never know what you're gonna get. Eventually you have to go by reputation bec. there's also not a lot of standardized qualifications or testing either, to make sure they are keeping up with the latest forensics, techniques, production methods, etc.

Hi KT Can,
I would be curious to know how old Lorraine was in the picture on the Doe Network. If she is close to adult in that photo, then I'm afraid her dentals are off from either the Waller Co. Hispanic Jean Doe and Princess Blue. Lorraine has distinct dental crowding in that photo (as a younger girl might still have), and looks as if they have not been orthodontically corrected. But that is only my estimate from looking at one photo of Lorraine and knowing the dentals of the other two ladies. NOT a prof. comparison, and I don't know yet if she has been or not... do you have any more info. on her?

warmly,

sloane said:

Yes, Rosser is with the Brazoria County Sheriff's Office, and Sgt. Coffman is Manvel P.D. But, you giuys probabaly already figured that out!

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Huh? What? What was that you said?:crazy: I know who Sgt. Coffman is, but it toooootally slipped my mind as to who Rosser is.

Lion

LionRun said:

These are both sketches of Princess Blue. Please note that no one knows her what her hair color, eye color, or skin tone was. Focusing on her facial structure and imagining her with any hair color, eye color, and skin tone may help bring back memories of who she was. Princess Blue may have been White (aka Caucasian) with the possibility of mixed race ancestry.

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I did a transparency overlay and this girl matches pretty closely. LionRun and I talked about this one about a month ago but when I was doing the comparison back then, I was doing the overlays by hand. I did another one by laser printing a transparency and then putting the photo under it. Maybe MrsG should have her student look at this comparison in the lab???.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/mpdetails.asp?id='M10/11/20013:10:00PM'

richandfamous said:

I did a transparency overlay and this girl matches pretty closely. LionRun and I talked about this one about a month ago but when I was doing the comparison back then, I was doing the overlays by hand. I did another one by laser printing a transparency and then putting the photo under it. Maybe MrsG should have her student look at this comparison in the lab???.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/mpdetails.asp?id='M10/11/20013:10:00PM'

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This looks like quite a possibility, richandfamous! Is there any way for me to see the overlays?

sloane said:

This looks like quite a possibility, richandfamous! Is there any way for me to see the overlays?

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sloane, this is the best I could do with the scan...it is a transparency layover of the photo of Angelica Gandara when she was 11. She has her head turned slightly but the nose mouth and eyes fit perfectly. We really need MrsG to do another morph to see how close it really is.

And David Elliot Penton is the suspected serial killer that murdered her.
http://www.tylerpaper.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070304/NEWS01/70303010/-1/NEWS12

I am a skeptic's skeptic, and I see many things that so far don't fit. I wonder if Penton ever kept any victims and killed them years later. I imagine that Princess Blue's age at TOD was 16-22, maybe to expand to from between 15 and 23. But, Angelica was 11. I do question; however, the accuracy in determining the age at TOD of Princess.

Internal cranial sutures, if examined by a forensic specialist, along with information on teeth and long bones should be able to determine a fairly accurate age at TOD. But, was this done? And, was it done by a skilled FS, I wonder? If it was, then I would think that Princess Blue is not Angelica--unless he kept her for several years. Yes, that happens, but very rarely. Penton was confined as of some time in 1987 or 1988. Had Angelica been alive up until that point she would have been about 13 or 14, which may be a stretch to possibly be Princess Blue--if the age at TOD was accurate.

I do not think that Angelica resembles Princess's recon, except that both had prominent cheek bones. I understand that recons can be way off, which is one reason why I still have some hope that Angelica is Princess Blue. But, one thing that seems hard to get wring on a recon is the orbital openings(eyes) and the basic jaw structure. Angelica didn't have any squaring of her jaw that I can see in her pic. Princess's recon shows a prominent squaring of her jaw. Also, Angelica's eyes appear to be closer together that what I see in Princess's recon.

Although, I understand that scumso Penton was a roamer, I don't see any ties to the Houston area. That of course doesn't mean he wasn't there. He could have been, and if there was proof that he was there it would point a tiny bit more to him being Princess's killer. I think it is possible but, unlikely that Princess Blue is Angelica. I think Penton may have possibly killed Angelica, but I just have strong doubts that Angelica is our Princess.

A more reliable way of comparing a UID with a missing person's pic might be to compare a pic of the actual skull(straight on pic of facial structure) to a straight on pic of the missing person, if one is available. Otherwise there is always the risk, and it usually happens that some or a lot is, "lost in translation". But, we do the best we can with what we have. Dang, I wish we had a quality pic of Princess's actual skeleton in the facial region. Oh well, that is probably too much to hope for.

Lion

Okay, this has nothing to do with the case, but I get the feeling everyone here really likes and enjoys Lion, and she really contributes, is respectful, and knows her stuff! Many of us know the love and loyalty of a dog, and really feel for her right now in this difficult time. On behalf of celebrating her, and wishing her our best, along with hoping she can slowly adjust to the new future without the little ones she so wanted...this is for you, Lion::blowkiss:

Sable said:

We might have someone new joining us soon. I recieved a message today from someone on MySpace who asked who I was and what I have to do with this case. She also said she has been working on this case for 8 years, has had many leads, and is working on a new way to possibly help identify Princess Blue. I explained to her that I'm a member here at WebSleuths and we are trying to help identify Princess Blue. I included a link to the forum and a link to someoneknowsme.com, and invited her to join us. I'm still waiting to hear back from her, and will let all of you know when I do.

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WOW!!
This is exciting- did she share any of her info. with you...eight years, huh? someone else who is dedicated, I see. What new way is she using to try to ID her?

richandfamous said:

...snip...


I can't find any record of her after she married what's his name!

ETA: I just checked the spreadsheet and someone found her..sorry.

PS: isn't it nice of most of these Texans to stay in Texas so we can trace them? LMAO

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You said it! I have noticed that many Texans are quite proud. That may be an understatement...it is unlike anything I have ever witnessed from anyone from any other state! So it doesn't surprise me that they might have stayed put all their lives in the same place they were born...

I can't get past the title without tears in my eyes. I wasn't over Spirit's death when this happened. Spirit's candle in my siggy was given to me by sheba1 when Spirit died. I framed it, brightened it up, and I decided to dedicate it to all of the missing and those who have passed. And, so now it is for these puppies, too. Thank you sloane. You are very kind, and I know you understand because of how much you love animals, too. It is nice to be working with others here who also love their pets and consider them to be family members. SadieMae and rich were there through all my tears and sadness when Spirit died, and it really helped get me through the worst of it.

So, does anyone have any ideas on how w can explain the gap from when Angelica disappeared to the time she was found? If it is her then either Penton kept her until 1987-1988 when he was apprehended, or she was only 11 when she was killed(was the 16-22 age at TOD accurate?). And, how would the ring tie in?

Lion

You are so very welcome, Lion. Most have probably seen that poem before if you have ever lost a pet...

Yes, I can assure you, the age range for P Blue is correct. It's in the ME's report from 1990, and the most recent anthro. analysis agrees. Actually, it is 17-21, but as I stated awhile back SOMEWHERE, the MPCH adds a year onto each end so as to net more possibles in their search for the true match.
On that note, Caucasian is also a definite!! I thought I had said that before, but it seems there is still confusion. There are many ways to determine ethnicity from the bones and the for. anth. has so determined this for P Blue. It is a more thorough analysis than an ME will do in an autopsy. Plus, there is the benefit of 17 years worth of research being applied to the more current analysis than the 1990 one.
Hope this helps,