Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #3

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SeriouslySearching said:
Thanks, Suzi. Trust me, I don't need a refresher on that creep. I know his case very well.

The question here tho is what happens in a dead body that would allow the drug to dissipate or otherwise leave no indication if it was administered before death? Makes no sense it would be gone before autopsy to me.
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I guess it would depend on how much time went by before death. I've been searching and searching and it appears that there is no conclusive way to determine much about GHB after the fact. Like you suggested, we need a pro to weigh in, and that's not me. But! I do remember reading that GHB is not a standard tox screen tested at autopsy.
 
Also, I have read in date rape cases, vics have gone straight to the ER and rarely do they test positive for GHB. That's how fast it leaves a body. I guess the question is, how long is the half life?
 
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bf...0tHp625&sig=CM6YLOxrqV2-Ck7mfB8cNsDn0us&hl=en

I don't know how to do a neat little "mini-link" here, but can make the toxicology a little more understandable. Basically, the pathways a person uses to break down GHB are also found in many bacteria. So, gut bacteria (or water bacteria, for that matter) can keep breaking down GHB even if there's something present after death. And a person metabolizes the compund really fast!
 
SuziQ said:
Also, I have read in date rape cases, vics have gone straight to the ER and rarely do they test positive for GHB. That's how fast it leaves a body. I guess the question is, how long is the half life?
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Less than 30 minutes, according to the above book.
 
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/418321_3

Elimination
Less than 2% of GHB is eliminated unchanged in the urine.[162, 164] Owing to the short half-life, there is no accumulation of GHB with repeated dosing and GHB doses of up to 100 mg/kg are no longer detectable in the blood from 2-8 hours or in the urine after 8-12 hours.[162, 165] The variability of these findings may depend on the sensitivity of the assay used, or it may be due to interindividual variability. In summary, it has been suggested that regardless of the dose given, the elimination of GHB is so rapid, even in those with compromised liver function, that the drug is completely eliminated within 4-6 hours after ingestion.[162]
 
Well, it's a half-life, and it seems like the breakdown is not a linear function. So I could see there being a remainder up to 4 hours afterward.
 
Peculiar Petunia said:
Well, it's a half-life, and it seems like the breakdown is not a linear function. So I could see there being a remainder up to 4 hours afterward.
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So exactly what would be left after how long? It seems that because GHB is normally in the body, that it's hard for a pathologist to determine what is a normal level. Let's say TOD is at one hour after ingestion, and we are lucky that an ME tests for GHB, can he even tell if it's enough to relate to foul play or not?
 
Anybody know if ghb would show up in the hair like some other drugs do?
 
Thanks for the info, Suzi and Petunia. :)

Good question, Arizona! I wonder if it can even be detected at all in the hair? I would have to assume as quickly as it leaves the body, the chemical wouldn't affect changes in the hair follicles...but I could be very wrong. Would be another interesting question to ask an ME.
 
Bodies in water are the most difficult to determine time of death, cause of death etc. Ina sense, a wet body is a perfect way to disguise what happened before death. I wonder if any bodies had unusual fibers on them, hair etc. That would be very important but again, all of that might also be lost in water.
 
Motive? Single individual, multiple people, gangs? An e-mail/internet connection? If random then back to motive. Male or female? MOTIVE?
 
Indigator, the most unusual hair was found in Chris Jenkins' hand...it was his own where he had pulled it out. There was also a mention of perhaps something else of significant evidence found there, too.

I think the water would also wash away an hair or fiber evidence unless, like the hair, was clutched or otherwise entwined with the clothing/body.
 
Indigator said:
Motive? Single individual, multiple people, gangs? An e-mail/internet connection? If random then back to motive. Male or female? MOTIVE?
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I feel the motive had an urgency associated with it at the time the acts were committed, but not in the time between deaths. I think there was a "need" as perceived by the people involved and having some type of reward for the killings.

I fall into the camp of multiple people because of the various locations and the timing of certain deaths. I am beginning to believe the groups are both male and female with all of them involved on some level.

As I believe these people are above average intelligence, I think an internet connection is quite probable.

The only motives I could come up with have to do with drugs, sexual orientation (them not the vics), religion, hazing rituals, or the alcohol/male/age mixture and a definite hatred of all three.

You know, I made a flip comment about MADD...but could they have a splinter group within that organization as a payback for the deaths of their own children? Could the victims represent the man/men responsible for those deaths?
 
Indigator said:
Bodies in water are the most difficult to determine time of death, cause of death etc. Ina sense, a wet body is a perfect way to disguise what happened before death. I wonder if any bodies had unusual fibers on them, hair etc. That would be very important but again, all of that might also be lost in water.
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On that note we can remember the quote from Duarte, IIRC and paraphraising, leaving the vics in the water is the perfect crime.
 
SeriouslySearching said:
You know, I made a flip comment about MADD...but could they have a splinter group within that organization as a payback for the deaths of their own children? Could the victims represent the man/men responsible for those deaths?
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You did make a flip comment, but it made me think about the possibility. IMO, you should put that in the theory thread just in case. I mean it makes as much if not more sense than my crazy monk theory, which BTW, cracks me up everytime I look at it. They creep me out though! A bunch of sick bastids they are!
 
Indigator said:
Motive? Single individual, multiple people, gangs? An e-mail/internet connection? If random then back to motive. Male or female? MOTIVE?
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One potential victim was last seen at a bar talking to a bearded older man.

Another potential victim, sorry don't know if he's on their list, was seen talking to a 'masculine type' woman in a convenience store.

hmmmmmm.........would that make for two or more groups? The different drowned or missing? Missing from pubs or walking? found in rivers not at all? duplicate dates of disappearances?

So many questions and not enough answers!

JMHO
fran
 
SuziQ said:
On that note we can remember the quote from Duarte, IIRC and paraphraising, leaving the vics in the water is the perfect crime.
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I heard it once said that the PERFECT CRIME IS WHEN A CRIME ISN'T DETECTED.

It was in other words,.... but it mainly said, "a perfect crime is when no one knows there's been a crime."

Which, btw, fits in very well with this scenario of these..... 'accidents.'

JMHO
fran
 
fran said:
I heard it once said that the PERFECT CRIME IS WHEN A CRIME ISN'T DETECTED.

It was in other words,.... but it mainly said, "a perfect crime is when no one knows there's been a crime."

Which, btw, fits in very well with this scenario of these..... 'accidents.'

JMHO
fran
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Exactly.
 
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