South Hadley,MA Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying #2

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I am going to post my piece... which may ruffle some feathers. I'm sorry if it does, but it's my opinion on the matter. You don't have to continue reading if you don't like it and if you feel the need to respond and be snarky, likewise, I don't have to continue reading. Again, this is simply my opinion.

I do NOT condone what these children have done. They HAVE harassed someone and intimidated someone, those things being against the law, let them face the consequences. One thing that I feel is being overlooked, as much as many people don't want to say it, is that they are still teenagers and children themselves! I know enough adults that harass and intimidate others. I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just saying that the fact is being overlooked.

I believe that there may have been a couple of underlying problems in this situation. I believe that Phoebe may have been homesick, for the obvious reasons and beyond. I also believe that she was deeply distraught over the fact that some of the harassment came from two former boyfriends?

I also have to wonder if Phoebe and her parents were not aware of their rights and alternatives. Phoebe could have continued to put up with the crap as many often do. Her parents also could have home schooled her through traditional means or through distance learning. They could have contacted the school superintendent and the police sooner. That however, is where I am a bit confused, because some reports give the impression that her parents did not know of the harassment until it was too late, and some where else I believe that I read that they had spoken to the school about the matter previously.

Suicide is not a normal reaction to name calling, pushing, and shoving. I along with many others were treated on an equally despicable scale for years on end. If I had a penny for each time I had been called a *advertiser censored*, *advertiser censored* or any other inappropriate name... For each time that people simply teased me about my first name, kicked in the face or punched, shoved, had things thrown at me or knocked from my hands, for every inappropriate sexual comment, inappropriate touch, or every penis that I had flashed at me.... I could easily put myself through college on it. I never once considered suicide and neither did many others. My home life wasn't great and I had no friends other than whoever I may have been dating at the time. However, I hadn't just recently arrived from another country. And yes, I even faced harassment due to the racial composition of my family. The harassment didn't stop at school.. Neighborhood kids quite often stole things from my home, illegally entered my family's property, and at one point even spray painted the side of the family home. I simply did not express to them my anger, would smile or blow kisses at them, make a witty comeback, and move on with my life and allow karma to take its course. When the harassment started coming from two particular school staff members, I took control of the situation.

I have to say that it is not the fault alone of the bullies. Again, I DEFINITELY do not approve of what has happened by means, but there were alternatives and Phoebe alone made the ultimate decision to take her life. As horrible as some may take this to be, did she not have proper coping skills? This kind of behavior continues throughout life unfortunately... We have employers who treat employees like crap and get away with it because the law only protects certain groups of people. We have neighbors that treat each other like poo. There are far worse things in the world than being called nasty names and hit and wished dead. Is it possible that she suffered from depression or anxiety before these events occurred... maybe even being depressed from the turnover in her romantic relationships?

Again, I'm sorry if some people are offended by this post. I just want people to consider deeply that the behavior of the other students was probably not the ONLY factor in her actions.
 
I am going to post my piece... which may ruffle some feathers. I'm sorry if it does, but it's my opinion on the matter. You don't have to continue reading if you don't like it and if you feel the need to respond and be snarky, likewise, I don't have to continue reading. Again, this is simply my opinion.

I do NOT condone what these children have done. They HAVE harassed someone and intimidated someone, those things being against the law, let them face the consequences. One thing that I feel is being overlooked, as much as many people don't want to say it, is that they are still teenagers and children themselves! I know enough adults that harass and intimidate others. I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just saying that the fact is being overlooked.

I believe that there may have been a couple of underlying problems in this situation. I believe that Phoebe may have been homesick, for the obvious reasons and beyond. I also believe that she was deeply distraught over the fact that some of the harassment came from two former boyfriends?

I also have to wonder if Phoebe and her parents were not aware of their rights and alternatives. Phoebe could have continued to put up with the crap as many often do. Her parents also could have home schooled her through traditional means or through distance learning. They could have contacted the school superintendent and the police sooner. That however, is where I am a bit confused, because some reports give the impression that her parents did not know of the harassment until it was too late, and some where else I believe that I read that they had spoken to the school about the matter previously.

Suicide is not a normal reaction to name calling, pushing, and shoving. I along with many others were treated on an equally despicable scale for years on end. If I had a penny for each time I had been called a *advertiser censored*, *advertiser censored* or any other inappropriate name... For each time that people simply teased me about my first name, kicked in the face or punched, shoved, had things thrown at me or knocked from my hands, for every inappropriate sexual comment, inappropriate touch, or every penis that I had flashed at me.... I could easily put myself through college on it. I never once considered suicide and neither did many others. My home life wasn't great and I had no friends other than whoever I may have been dating at the time. However, I hadn't just recently arrived from another country. And yes, I even faced harassment due to the racial composition of my family. The harassment didn't stop at school.. Neighborhood kids quite often stole things from my home, illegally entered my family's property, and at one point even spray painted the side of the family home. I simply did not express to them my anger, would smile or blow kisses at them, make a witty comeback, and move on with my life and allow karma to take its course. When the harassment started coming from two particular school staff members, I took control of the situation.

I have to say that it is not the fault alone of the bullies. Again, I DEFINITELY do not approve of what has happened by means, but there were alternatives and Phoebe alone made the ultimate decision to take her life. As horrible as some may take this to be, did she not have proper coping skills? This kind of behavior continues throughout life unfortunately... We have employers who treat employees like crap and get away with it because the law only protects certain groups of people. We have neighbors that treat each other like poo. There are far worse things in the world than being called nasty names and hit and wished dead. Is it possible that she suffered from depression or anxiety before these events occurred... maybe even being depressed from the turnover in her romantic relationships?

Again, I'm sorry if some people are offended by this post. I just want people to consider deeply that the behavior of the other students was probably not the ONLY factor in her actions.

I think you bring up some interesting points. I don't necessarily agree though. Everyone here has been called names, but i think they reason there is a case against these kids is that it went BEYOND normal bullying. She was made to feel physically threatened.

And how would you judge ones strength? Obviously there is normal bullying, and extreme cases of torment and stalking (not Phoebes case specifically). But in a court, would you have to set a standard that is the "normal" level of ones ability to cope, and if someone is less than that standard, then more blame lies on outlying factors? Or would outlying factors (such as history of depression), would those work against the defendants or in favor of them. One could argue that she was weaker, but one could also argue that depression is a type of illness or disability, then that opens up a whole new set of circumstances...

Hm...I don't think i explained myself very well...I guess I'm just not quite sure how this all works or how it will play out. i would love to hear a lawyers take on this.

But like I said, interesting analysis. I'm not sure I agree, but it is one angle to look out, and may very well be one that plays out in court.
 
Suicide is what someone does when they believe they are a nothing. Worthless. Have absolutely no redeemable factor in their life or for others. Their life essence is racked in pain and they believe they cannot be fixed on any possible level. To remove their pain, to remove what they believe is truth by the action, lack of actions, the words, or the lack of words, they take their lives by their own hands. No one will miss them. Why would they? These victims of suicide remove themselves from this earth because they are nothing and everyone would be better off with them gone. That is their truth at that moment...

Ms Prince attended this school for only 3 months before she took her life. It was riddled, 7 days a week, via at school, texting, and computer. Not "harmless" pranks, but vicious attacks towards her. She literally just turned 15 years old in mid November. How does a young teen suppose to have coping skills when they are just coming into the this next part of their lives? They do not have them yet. Only time teaches. What she learned in her young teen time was she was a nothing. Peer pressure is horrible enough without the severe ugliness that so many, like Phoebe, endure.

imvho
 
Is it possible that she was examined in her lady bits to tell if she was still a virgin or not? I mean I know it's certainly possible right?
 
Cyan, I can see the logic in what you are saying. But here is where my view may be a bit different.

If you have a group of thugs that make a practice (and 3 months would be making a practice)...of, say, shoving people to the street. Maybe people usually get up...some more bruised and hurt than others...but they get up.

If one day, they shove a heart patient to the ground and that person dies...by our law, they would be responsible for that death.

It's regrettable that civility, or moral values or common decency does not stop vile behavior. But those who practice vile behavior must be held accountable IMO...even if their victim has some underlying problem that contributed.

If that heart victim in mt analogy had not be brutally shoved, chances are he would not have died. If Phoebe had not been relentlessly bullied, chances are she would not have taken her life.

The bullying was without question making her life "unbearable." That cannot be dismissed in the equation. Therefore, the perpetrators must be held accountable.
 
Is it possible that she was examined in her lady bits to tell if she was still a virgin or not? I mean I know it's certainly possible right?

I am positive there was a complete autopsy done and results in ME records.
 
I am positive there was a complete autopsy done and results in ME records.

Then if her lady bits were examined then it should prove she's not a virgin?

I just had an ugly flash in my mind of her not actually being the one who tied that noose around her neck. Could it be possible that these girls actually did it?
 
Then if her lady bits were examined then it should prove she's not a virgin?

I just had an ugly flash in my mind of her not actually being the one who tied that noose around her neck. Could it be possible that these girls actually did it?

I would assume so, but I'm no MD. I leave those results up to the experts. As far as others personally involved with hanging, I have to say no. I do not believe so.

imvho
 
So...we can't talk about the trial then since it's not happening for months...??:waitasec:
I've been talking about the potential ANS trial for 4 years...lol...and it STILL hasn't happened. Talk on, Buddy...;)
 
Cyan, I can see the logic in what you are saying. But here is where my view may be a bit different.

If you have a group of thugs that make a practice (and 3 months would be making a practice)...of, say, shoving people to the street. Maybe people usually get up...some more bruised and hurt than others...but they get up.

If one day, they shove a heart patient to the ground and that person dies...by our law, they would be responsible for that death.

It's regrettable that civility, or moral values or common decency does not stop vile behavior. But those who practice vile behavior must be held accountable IMO...even if their victim has some underlying problem that contributed.

If that heart victim in mt analogy had not be brutally shoved, chances are he would not have died. If Phoebe had not been relentlessly bullied, chances are she would not have taken her life.

The bullying was without question making her life "unbearable." That cannot be dismissed in the equation. Therefore, the perpetrators must be held accountable.

I never said DON'T hold them accountable. I was simply saying that I don't believe it was the SOLE/ONLY factor in the matter is all.
 
Then if her lady bits were examined then it should prove she's not a virgin?

I just had an ugly flash in my mind of her not actually being the one who tied that noose around her neck. Could it be possible that these girls actually did it?
I have my suspicions. They seemed pretty intent on confronting her that last day, didn't they? I can't WAIT for the trial...
 
I have my suspicions. They seemed pretty intent on confronting her that last day, didn't they? I can't WAIT for the trial...

This is something I've been wondering too. What is is about that last day or week that made them really turn up the heat? While we don't have an exact time line - from reading the indictments and other things it seems she started dating Sean sometime in the beginning of the school year and they broke up in November. Therefore the three girls associated with Sean probably were harassing her the whole time. Apparently the fling with Austin happened sometime in December, although we don't know the exact date or nature of that fling so I'm guessing the other three girls started their harassment after they found out about that. It seems from early January till Jan 14th things got progressively worse and just completely out of hand. I mean that last day alone was just thing after thing after thing. Is it that these two groups kind of combined efforts and it just ended up getting really out of control? I still get confused about which girls are which so I apologize if that sounded stupid - when I read stories about these girls their names sort of all blur together ;)
 
Again, I'm sorry if some people are offended by this post. I just want people to consider deeply that the behavior of the other students was probably not the ONLY factor in her actions.
respectfully snipped by me...

I posted a link earlier to a lawyers blog. He mentioned the "eggshell theory". It doesn't matter, he said, how fragile a person is...
"The line between civil and criminal matters is, at times, a thin one. For example, if you hit me, I can call the police and have you arrested. It is assault. However, I can also sue you civilly for any damages that you caused. In fact, if I was extra sensitive to such an assault, you will be liable for the damages you caused whether you knew about my weakness or not. It is called “Eggshell Theory”.
http://www.bostoncriminallawyerblog...ing_indictments_continue_to_spread_guilt.html
 
I think you bring up some interesting points. I don't necessarily agree though. Everyone here has been called names, but i think they reason there is a case against these kids is that it went BEYOND normal bullying. She was made to feel physically threatened.

And how would you judge ones strength? Obviously there is normal bullying, and extreme cases of torment and stalking (not Phoebes case specifically). But in a court, would you have to set a standard that is the "normal" level of ones ability to cope, and if someone is less than that standard, then more blame lies on outlying factors? Or would outlying factors (such as history of depression), would those work against the defendants or in favor of them. One could argue that she was weaker, but one could also argue that depression is a type of illness or disability, then that opens up a whole new set of circumstances...

Hm...I don't think i explained myself very well...I guess I'm just not quite sure how this all works or how it will play out. i would love to hear a lawyers take on this.

But like I said, interesting analysis. I'm not sure I agree, but it is one angle to look out, and may very well be one that plays out in court.

I think I understand what you are saying. There's no doubt that she was harassed, and in my opinion they should be punished. I believe that they will be found guilty of that and some of the other charges regardless.

It also occurred to me that the school was previously aware of the harassment but had done nothing to punish the students until Phoebe took her life. Although it was a moral move, I find myself baffled by this... The school wouldn't punish any of them initially for what they had witnessed taking place or that had been reported. Did the school only have the students removed as a way to avoid more public backlash than what they already knew would be coming? For example, how does their failure to intervene appropriately differ from a group of 7 teenagers beating a girl and one of the 7 refuses to participate but does nothing to stop it and the other 6 murder the girl.. Such as what occurred with Shanda Sharer.

"violation of civil rights resulting in injury" - what else, specifically, occurred asides from the name calling to result in that charge? Not dissecting that, it's a genuine question.
 
Hi all - this is a little off topic but hope you don't mind me sharing. I believe yesterday the issue of there being virtually no recent pictures of Phoebe came up and also the fact that it seems she had very few real, true close friends while here, if any. I was on one of the Facebook Memorial pages for Phoebe and noticed someone asked if a certain picture was taken here or in Ireland and someone responded that it must have been Ireland as no pictures were taken at SHHS. I decided to message that person to clarify what he/she meant by that and this was the response:

There are 2 known pictures taken while at SHHS. One was a cell phone pic on this group with the orange scarf. The other is what appears to be a scan of a picture possibly taken for a yearbook of a class type photo.

IMO, Phoebe had no real friends at SHHS though many have come out after her death dramatically acting as best friends. One of the most vocal mourners was found to have tweeted 4 days before her death calling her an irish *advertiser censored* and making a threat at the dance.

It is a little known theory to the general public that a significant factor of Phoebe reaching the point of feeling such despair and totally alone may have been realization those she thought were friends were backstabbing her.


One would think that even if she had people that she just hung out with but wasn't necessarily close with that more recent pictures would be floating around. then there's also the fact that those who seem or claim to have been her friend also support sean and the administration. It's difficult to tell if there's just something we're missing or these kids don't see what we see or they just weren't as good friends as they'd make it seem. Who knows.
 
respectfully snipped by me...

I posted a link earlier to a lawyers blog. He mentioned the "eggshell theory". It doesn't matter, he said, how fragile a person is...

http://www.bostoncriminallawyerblog...ing_indictments_continue_to_spread_guilt.html

Thanks :) You made that post as I was typing up the last one that I made... I spend about 12 hours a day reading and writing for my job, by the time I get to read anything for myself everything blurs together and things get overlooked.
 
This is something I've been wondering too. What is is about that last day or week that made them really turn up the heat? While we don't have an exact time line - from reading the indictments and other things it seems she started dating Sean sometime in the beginning of the school year and they broke up in November. Therefore the three girls associated with Sean probably were harassing her the whole time. Apparently the fling with Austin happened sometime in December, although we don't know the exact date or nature of that fling so I'm guessing the other three girls started their harassment after they found out about that. It seems from early January till Jan 14th things got progressively worse and just completely out of hand. I mean that last day alone was just thing after thing after thing. Is it that these two groups kind of combined efforts and it just ended up getting really out of control? I still get confused about which girls are which so I apologize if that sounded stupid - when I read stories about these girls their names sort of all blur together ;)
We have them in the car following her...and then it stops. Nothing more. We don't even know how long she was dead before she was found. How she was hanging, how long was the scarf, where was she hanging, did she carry books, belongings, that day? Where were they? What did the last text messages say? Was the scarf she wore that day the one she was found in? I have many questions...most of all WHERE was she?

To me, from reading the dox, that day more harassment and tension built as the day progressed. Were they done with her?
 
I think I understand what you are saying. There's no doubt that she was harassed, and in my opinion they should be punished. I believe that they will be found guilty of that and some of the other charges regardless.

It also occurred to me that the school was previously aware of the harassment but had done nothing to punish the students until Phoebe took her life. Although it was a moral move, I find myself baffled by this... The school wouldn't punish any of them initially for what they had witnessed taking place or that had been reported. Did the school only have the students removed as a way to avoid more public backlash than what they already knew would be coming? For example, how does their failure to intervene appropriately differ from a group of 7 teenagers beating a girl and one of the 7 refuses to participate but does nothing to stop it and the other 6 murder the girl.. Such as what occurred with Shanda Sharer.

"violation of civil rights resulting in injury" - what else, specifically, occurred asides from the name calling to result in that charge? Not dissecting that, it's a genuine question.

there was evidence that objects had been thrown at her, also i believe she had been shoved into a locker. would verbal threats of violence count under that charge?


ugh, my shift key isn't working, sorry for the lack of capital letters
 
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