I know what you are talking about ..... I too say that video.....it looked like she passed him a chip.....he covered his hand with it and then moved his right arm to under the table......she may have loaned him that chip. She certainly was a better player than he was.......she won a bundle. He knew this......too.......I don't know how find that video but maybe someone will come on here later in the day or tonight and answer your question.....
Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #20
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I know what you are talking about ..... I too say that video.....it looked like she passed him a chip.....he covered his hand with it and then moved his right arm to under the table......she may have loaned him that chip. She certainly was a better player than he was.......she won a bundle. He knew this......too.......I don't know how find that video but maybe someone will come on here later in the day or tonight and answer your question.....
doobiedoo52
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I've been thinking about the time of death for Stephany. I know one of Joran's stories was that she was killed shortly after they went to the room and another story said it was after he went out for coffee. It seems logical to me that she was killed closer to the time he left the hotel for good. If it had happened earlier, why wouldn't he have left when he would be less likely to be seen taking the car and there were no family concerns yet about her not returning home? He would have had a couple extra hours of
escape time.
What if she was still alive before he went out for coffee? He had taken a shower & changed clothes. She goes in to shower (her shoes are back by the bed) and he says he's going out for coffee. She leaves the bathroom after her shower but doesn't have her jeans on yet. She lays them on the bed. She has wet hair from the shower and is chilly & slips his long sleeved shirt on. She sits up in the bed with her back to the wall and covers herself up & opens the laptop. Joran returns, sets the coffee on the table and sees her--2 big red flags--she's on his laptop and wearing his shirt--WITHOUT his divine permission! He grabs her by her right arm and pushes the laptop away. (accounts for bruising on her arm near elbow) They argue, she pulls the covers up around her (covering her shirt), he bangs her head against the wall first and then punches her in the face. This is when the bleeding starts and she loses consciousness. At this point it's very likely that he got a spot or two of blood that flew from her nose on his shirt. He puts his hands around her neck and attempts to strangle her and finish her off. (accounts for the neck bruising) The only blood he would have from that would be on his hands. She is still wearing his shirt so he gathers the front of it up and pushes it into her face till she stops breathing. Now that she is dead he grabs her legs and pulls the body off the bed and onto the floor next to it. He strips the bedding off and puts it on the floor. Remember her hair is wet from the shower and with the massive bleeding from her face and eye, the blood and water mix is soaking into his shirt and any bedding and carpeting near her head. Her own shirt only has minimal spatter because she had the covers up around her and also his shirt on over it. Her shoes were probably laying in the line of the blood spatter during the initial punch or when he pulled her off onto the floor. I really think these are the only 2 times when any spatter could have happened.
One good punch, an attempt at strangulation and then smothering would be all that was needed to produce the crime scene as it was shown.
Between her wet hair and massive amounts of blood produced by any head injury the absorption of blood by any surface near it would be tremendous. Considering the body was not found for almost 3 days, her hair would have been dry and nothing would tell them she had just been in the shower to explain her missing pants and shoes. All JMO
Note: When they said he attempted cleanup, it may be because some of the blood was watered down-like the white shirt--I think it's more likely from her wet hair.
escape time.
What if she was still alive before he went out for coffee? He had taken a shower & changed clothes. She goes in to shower (her shoes are back by the bed) and he says he's going out for coffee. She leaves the bathroom after her shower but doesn't have her jeans on yet. She lays them on the bed. She has wet hair from the shower and is chilly & slips his long sleeved shirt on. She sits up in the bed with her back to the wall and covers herself up & opens the laptop. Joran returns, sets the coffee on the table and sees her--2 big red flags--she's on his laptop and wearing his shirt--WITHOUT his divine permission! He grabs her by her right arm and pushes the laptop away. (accounts for bruising on her arm near elbow) They argue, she pulls the covers up around her (covering her shirt), he bangs her head against the wall first and then punches her in the face. This is when the bleeding starts and she loses consciousness. At this point it's very likely that he got a spot or two of blood that flew from her nose on his shirt. He puts his hands around her neck and attempts to strangle her and finish her off. (accounts for the neck bruising) The only blood he would have from that would be on his hands. She is still wearing his shirt so he gathers the front of it up and pushes it into her face till she stops breathing. Now that she is dead he grabs her legs and pulls the body off the bed and onto the floor next to it. He strips the bedding off and puts it on the floor. Remember her hair is wet from the shower and with the massive bleeding from her face and eye, the blood and water mix is soaking into his shirt and any bedding and carpeting near her head. Her own shirt only has minimal spatter because she had the covers up around her and also his shirt on over it. Her shoes were probably laying in the line of the blood spatter during the initial punch or when he pulled her off onto the floor. I really think these are the only 2 times when any spatter could have happened.
One good punch, an attempt at strangulation and then smothering would be all that was needed to produce the crime scene as it was shown.
Between her wet hair and massive amounts of blood produced by any head injury the absorption of blood by any surface near it would be tremendous. Considering the body was not found for almost 3 days, her hair would have been dry and nothing would tell them she had just been in the shower to explain her missing pants and shoes. All JMO
Note: When they said he attempted cleanup, it may be because some of the blood was watered down-like the white shirt--I think it's more likely from her wet hair.
Ok I found the link. It's on this Peru site:
http://peru21.pe/noticia/492390/fbi-rechaza-version-sobre-van-der-sloot
I can't get an imbed.
Joran has come up with so many lies that in the end the overwhelming evidence against him in this case should be more than enough to earn him the maximum sentence,all his lies mean absolutely nothing except that he is a horrific liar.
Beatrice
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I just think with all the scenarios Joran has told of what happened to Natalee...One must be the truth.
It is also very plausible Joran finally shared the truth with someone...
Stephany. And he "had to" kill her. JMO.
If it is a chip, IMO, it's a gesture of friendship, trust, good will, w/e. No reason for fellow gambler to loan money/chip to a near stranger past 3 AM in the morning at a casino where they're both gambling together. No reason to go into his hotel room past 5 AM in the morning alone when he could have paid her back some other time. He lured her back to his room to continue gambling online. That is their connection - gambling. As father said, she didn't understand evil. She only sees the one thing they have in common.
Peliman
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Two different casino videos - Best watched sound off.
First from a news network. Two different camera angles, a bit longer and in IMO best quality I've seen so far.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRvB4v5T3LQ[/ame]
Second, someone posted a composite video with from a different angle and extra minute length.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCjlVqpaXk8[/ame]
First from a news network. Two different camera angles, a bit longer and in IMO best quality I've seen so far.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRvB4v5T3LQ[/ame]
Second, someone posted a composite video with from a different angle and extra minute length.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCjlVqpaXk8[/ame]
pittsburghgirl
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Once again, you move right past the answer that fits the facts toward the answer you want. We need some evidence that Joran was set up. Your "theory" requires that someone would plan to murder another young woman to set Joran up, that someone would follow Joran to not only Peru, but to a hotel room with a security camera right outside his door, that someone would lie in wait for the moment when he would bring a woman back to that hotel, then wait again until Joran left her alone; that someone would somehow gain entrance to that room without breaking down the door. Then the unknown person would have to kill Stephany, attempt to clean up the blood, and Ninja his or her way out of the room without being seen by the camera, all the while not knowing where Joran is or when he was coming back.
At some point, the "real" killer(s) would have to exit the room without being seen by the camera or the hotel staff or any visitors, even though this person is presumably covered with blood or blood spatter. Then, somehow, the killer has to get the innocent Joran to do a lot of things that make him look guilty of murder but also MAKE HIM GUILTY of other crimes and point to knowledge of guilt, such as stealing her money and car, disguising his appearance, leaving the country, and telling Chilean LE a patently false version of what happened, a version that differed from what he said in Peru. Then, the killers get very lucky and find out that Interpol and LE in Chile and Peru have bought into their frame up or--gasp--are in on the frame up, along with federal agents in the US.
We are expected, then, to believe that the same people who set up Joran in Aruba set him up in Peru, and LE in four countries didn't suspect a thing? That five years of scrutiny didn't turn up a shred of evidence that anyone from the US killed Natalee Holloway? Who are these murderers? Where is there a shred of evidence that they exist? Why would anyone need to set up a murder in Peru when there is already evidence of a crime that would allow the US to request extradition, that would require Joran to answer questions about Natalee Holloway because HE was claiming to know the location of her body. The extortion case provided all anyone would ever need to get Joran to the US, in an American jail, to answer questions posed by American federal agents. There is (we have been told in the indictment against Joran and by witnesses in the US and Aruba) evidence that Joran initiated the extortion plot (emails, signed documents, video, wire transfers) and took the money. So the Holloways and their supporters had no reason to set up Joran in Peru and no reason, certainly, to murder another young woman. Joran has confessed to knowing where Natalee's body is and also to being present at her death.
As to your contention that few murderers would be that "stupid," the prisons of the world are full of people who murder and then get caught. Most unsolved cases are probably "solved," in the sense that LE has a good idea who did it but can't try the case because the body is missing or witnesses won't cooperate, etc. People who kill other people deliberately are massively arrogant and entitled, and thus often believe they are smarter than whoever is investigating the case. So my contention is that murderers are morally stupid and fully capable of deluding themselves into thinking that they can get away with murder.
You are, as people say, entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The basics of this case have not changed: Joran and Stephany enter his room. Joran leaves alone. These movements are caught on video. Joran runs away, steals her money and car, gets caught, and lies to LE in Chile. There is a body and a defined crime scene, which will point to the murderer with objective evidence. Peruvian LE has every reason to want to arrest and try the person who committed the crime.
Carrington
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Van der Sloot said he drank 10 drinks, whiskey and Pisco, a Peruvian grape liquor at the Atlantic City Casino in Lima, where he picked up Flores at a poker table.
http://abcnews.go.com/International...ots-gory-peru-murder/story?id=10923141&page=2
He may very well have had loose lips.
IMO
http://abcnews.go.com/International...ots-gory-peru-murder/story?id=10923141&page=2
He may very well have had loose lips.
IMO
pittsburghgirl
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Like all liars, there is probably a grain of truth in there somewhere. He tells LE that intruders broke Stephany's nose. Her nose was broken, but not by "intruders." Liars always have to account for the things they know and fear will be seen by those trying to learn the truth. Hence Joran's story in the Holloway case about losing his shoe. I've never believed his accounts of what happened to Natalee because he knows the body is gone and there is no "crime scene". So he is free to make up whatever he wants to say. The lies that can tell us something are the ones he tells when there is still a chance he can be caught and held accountable, e.g., lying about dropping Natalee off at the hotel or leaving her on the beach. In this case, he can only "invent" people who did exactly what the forensic scene will tell witnesses because if he lies about what happened to her, the crime scene will expose him as a liar. Catch-22 for a murderer, the very opposite of "no body, no crime."
Niner
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First off, you all are too fast for me - I am STILL reading the 12th thread on here... anyway - so I haven't read this thread at all - but wanted to post an article from 15 hours ago:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ivjZZz2WTj-nJ_lNzCNyFmuADWDwD9GIM2K80
snipped...
Peru judge rules Van der Sloot confession valid
(AP) – 15 hours ago
LIMA, Peru — A Peruvian judge on Friday denied a defense motion to void the confession of Joran van der Sloot in the murder of a 21-year-old Lima student because the attorney representing him at the time was state-appointed.
Superior Court Judge Wilder Casique rejected the habeus corpus motion on behalf of Van der Sloot, who is jailed pending trial on charges of first-degree murder and robbery in the May 30 death in his hotel room of Stephany Flores, whom he met playing poker in a casino.
Casique noted in a statement that Van der Sloot had, in addition to the lawyer, been afforded a Dutch-Spanish interpreter vetted by the Dutch Embassy.
The defendant's lawyer, Maximo Altez, told The Associated Press that he would appeal Casique's decision to a higher court.
A criminal law expert, Jose Balcazar, told the AP that Van der Sloot can continue the appeal but "that will not hold up the case against him."
Earlier Friday, the chief judge of Lima's Superior Court, Cesar Vega, told reporters that Peruvian laws allow up to six months for murder trials.
But legal expert Mario Amoretti said that in practice, cases like Van der Sloot's can last 18 months.
Balcazar said the defense is likely to try to draw the trial out.
If convicted, Van der Sloot faces between 15 and 35 years in prison.
:woohoo: :woohoo:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ivjZZz2WTj-nJ_lNzCNyFmuADWDwD9GIM2K80
snipped...
Peru judge rules Van der Sloot confession valid
(AP) – 15 hours ago
LIMA, Peru — A Peruvian judge on Friday denied a defense motion to void the confession of Joran van der Sloot in the murder of a 21-year-old Lima student because the attorney representing him at the time was state-appointed.
Superior Court Judge Wilder Casique rejected the habeus corpus motion on behalf of Van der Sloot, who is jailed pending trial on charges of first-degree murder and robbery in the May 30 death in his hotel room of Stephany Flores, whom he met playing poker in a casino.
Casique noted in a statement that Van der Sloot had, in addition to the lawyer, been afforded a Dutch-Spanish interpreter vetted by the Dutch Embassy.
The defendant's lawyer, Maximo Altez, told The Associated Press that he would appeal Casique's decision to a higher court.
A criminal law expert, Jose Balcazar, told the AP that Van der Sloot can continue the appeal but "that will not hold up the case against him."
Earlier Friday, the chief judge of Lima's Superior Court, Cesar Vega, told reporters that Peruvian laws allow up to six months for murder trials.
But legal expert Mario Amoretti said that in practice, cases like Van der Sloot's can last 18 months.
Balcazar said the defense is likely to try to draw the trial out.
If convicted, Van der Sloot faces between 15 and 35 years in prison.
:woohoo: :woohoo:
FLNY
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Here's the casino video:
http://www.larepublica.pe/node/271311/01#fotos
I believe I was the first to mention that it appears she's passing him a chip. Some disagreed, but it still looks that way to me...especially in the overhead shots.
For a long time I thought it was just a limp or delicate handshake but the more I look at the video, it really does appear she gives him a chip which he places on the table. I wish there were a close-up of the video!
FLNY
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I appreciate your scenario. It makes sense. But, my first thought was...'oh, it couldn't have happened that way' because shortly after returning to this room with the coffees, Joran leaves the room and stages the 'fake' coffee alibi.
However, I looked back at the photos of both coffee incidents in the media thread... [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5304054&postcount=105"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Stephany Flores Ramirez Media Links and Images **NO DISCUSSION**[/ame]
He returned with coffee at 8:24 and left the room again holding the coffees at 8:35. So, he may have had enough time in those 11 minutes to commit the murder. This may also explain why he appears so dazed when he leaves the room at 8:35 and does the limp wrist knocking on the door. That's the only time I've seen him look dis-oriented!
So, maybe you are onto something here! Thanks!
pittsburghgirl
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doobiedoo and flny, I really appreciate the well-thought out scenarios. I don't recall seeing a clear timeline, although with 14 threads I may well have missed it. Do we have a timeline of Joran's movements that clearly limits the times when a phantom killer would have had access to the crime scene alone?
I'll admit I have some questions about a young woman having her period being willing to take off her pants in front of a relative stranger or just willing to sit in her panties. Maybe I'm showing my age, here.
I'll admit I have some questions about a young woman having her period being willing to take off her pants in front of a relative stranger or just willing to sit in her panties. Maybe I'm showing my age, here.
Thanks for moving the videos forward again! I'm going to say, IMO, no exchange during handshake. I'm referencing the first video, overhead footage, beginning right after she smooths her hair. @ about 1:24.
When I freeze at several points, he does open his right palm after the handshake - However, the chip could still be concealed in his lower palm. Can't detect a full open palm, too unclear.
However, second/s before her hand meets his, as she begins reaching her right hand out to him, her palm is open (nearly palm down, not cupped) on freeze. Nothing there.
FLNY
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Look at the media thread link that I posted. It shows the timestamped photos of when he first left his room to go for coffee at 8:13, returns to the room with coffe at 8:24, leaves the room with the coffee at 8:35 and returns with room clerk at 8:39 and leaves with luggage at 8:56.
So he's gone from the room for 11 minutes the first time and 4 minutes the second time.
FLNY
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Thanks, but I'm still not convinced. At 1:28 when she extends her hand, the shot is pretty blurry, but it looks like the chip could be between her fingers, not in the palm of her hand. From the first time I saw this video, the handshake (even from the long distance shot) struck me as being peculiar.
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