2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

AZlawyer said:

Yep, it's the same one.

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To explain the emotion I feel right now is beyond me. The tears for that sweet baby girl, wow one of the first times in this case that has broke me. As a mother, as a woman, as a human being who cares, may the one who did this rot in hell! I do believe Casey is guilty as hell, she's convinced herself she isn't as has her mother. Sickening!!!

:clap: Thank you all for bringing justice to Caylee :smiliescale:

Harmony2 said:

re bolded and underscored by me...

I have done alot of research in the area of maternal fillicide and it is my contention that Casey was having a hard time letting go of Caylee's remains. She wanted to keep her close... keeping her in the trunk, trying to dig to bury her in the backyard and finally placing Caylee's remains "close to home".

http://www.slate.com/id/2063086/



I know it is not a popular stance...

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Not to mention the heart shaped sticker to add the final touch.

kellymay77 said:

Hi I'm a longtime lurker and have read/followed the brilliance of so many fabulous sleuthers. I didn't see the outline and until just this morning on another site I see it plain as day. I don't have the priviledge to view images on WS but wonder if the one I'm seeing is what JWG compiled. Can I send someone the link, I'm sure I've read I can't post it for another site but I am really curious if it's one and the same. Thanks in advance.

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-----------------------------------
kellymay,::WELCOME:lease do post the link,I'd like to see it.I had a hard time with the other ones. I did find tilting my laptop screen helped a bit.Good to have you here.:dance:

AZlawyer said:

I think KC must have had some understanding of the decomp process at least as of the late evening of June 16 when she and Tony watched Untraceable, which includes a scene of someone opening a car trunk and finding a decomposing body. I haven't seen the movie, though--has anyone else seen it? Is it obvious from this scene in the movie that the decomp would cause smells/other problems?

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I haven't seen the movie either, but I wouldn't put it past KC to think " Oh that's just Hollywood, that's not going to happen anytime soon." After all, she thought she could lie to LE about her "job", graduating from college, brazenly waltz in Target and make purchases with Amy's checks and get away with it. Then again, maybe she knew, but the "10 minute girl" had more important things to do than get rid of the body in her trunk. It's difficult to apply logic to KC's actions when she is so illogical. By the way AZ, just wanted to say I always look for, and admire your posts.

...one of them isn't necessary."

A quote I can't seem to attach to its original author, but, one that comes to mind when I find myself askew to someone like my good friend JWG, with whom I'm typically in agreement. In this case my perspective on the potential stain in the trunk outline is slightly different.

ETA: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4975528&postcount=310"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2010.02.16 Doc Dump: Stain on Trunk Liner[/ame]


In the interest of full disclosure, this is an area where I have demonstrated less than stellar abilities. The crime scene photos held all kinds of stuff in my view that it turns out... just weren't there. :bang: So...expecting just as much to be off as on - I submit to you what I'm seeing.

On the left below is the unretouched composite image that JWG so kindly pieced together & shared :thumb:. On the right is a copy of the image I have colorized to highlight what appears to me to be the outline. I have tagged some elements of the anatomy that should help you to recognize the overall positioning. Aside from adding the color and labels I have not modified the image in any way.

A description of what I'm seeing is the body in a crouching/fetal position with the points of greatest pressure (hip, shoulder, elbow & abdomen) demonstrating the most intense white (in the original). With the body laying essentially on one side with the upper torso slightly twisted such that the chest and abdomen are lying on the carpet. The torso is lying on top of what would be the left arm (mirror image) with the elbow located just behind the small of the back and the forearm passing across the abdomen and the hand(s) indistinguishable, but, positioned in what would be the lap area. The knee would be positioned over the hole in the wheel cover and the foot positioned somewhat in an on-the-toes fashion.

In this scenario the head would be resting on the section of carpet closest to the fender (not in this image as it is only of the wheel cover). IOW...the top of the image is where the shoulders would be located.

Paintr said:

These photos of the trunk stain remind me of ultrasound photos of a baby in the womb. Kinda ironic that Caylee's first photos and last photos should look so much alike.

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Heartbreaking...gutwrenching...

I am having a terribly hard time matching up the shape of the stains with this particular statement from FBI Intelligence Analyst Karen Cowan, ". . . You can make out what may be the back, bottom, and legs most clearly."

Was she seeing something entirely different? Because compared to the positions I'm led to imagine ~ the legs are not clear at all; in fact, they seem to be the least identifiable. I bet I'm just not very good at this because I can't make it match the FBI's description!!

ExpectingUnicorns said:

I am having a terribly hard time matching up the shape of the stains with this particular statement from FBI Intelligence Analyst Karen Cowan, ". . . You can make out what may be the back, bottom, and legs most clearly."

Was she seeing something entirely different? Because compared to the positions I'm led to imagine ~ the legs are not clear at all; in fact, they seem to be the least identifiable. I bet I'm just not very good at this because I can't make it match the FBI's description!!

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Don't confuse me w/ the facts, EU. :snooty:

BondJamesBond said:

...one of them isn't necessary."

A quote I can't seem to attach to its original author, but, one that comes to mind when I find myself askew to someone like my good friend JWG, with whom I'm typically in agreement. In this case my perspective on the potential stain in the trunk outline is slightly different.

In the interest of full disclosure, this is an area where I have demonstrated less than stellar abilities. The crime scene photos held all kinds of stuff in my view that it turns out... just weren't there. :bang: So...expecting just as much to be off as on - I submit to you what I'm seeing.

On the left below is the unretouched image. On the right is a copy of the image I have colorized to highlight what appears to me to be the outline. I have tagged some elements of the anatomy that should help you to recognize the overall positioning. Aside from adding the color and labels I have not modified the image in any way.

A description of what I'm seeing is the body in a crouching/fetal position with the points of greatest pressure (hip, shoulder, elbow & abdomen) demonstrating the most intense white (in the original). With the body laying essentially on one side with the upper torso slightly twisted such that the chest and abdomen are lying on the carpet. The torso is lying on top of what would be the left arm (mirror image) with the elbow located just behind the small of the back and the forearm passing across the abdomen and the hand(s) indistinguishable, but, positioned in what would be the lap area. The knee would be positioned over the hole in the wheel cover and the foot positioned somewhat in an on-the-toes fashion.

In this scenario the head would be resting on the section of carpet closest to the fender (not in this image as it is only of the wheel cover). IOW...the top of the image is where the shoulders would be located.

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Quote respect BJB. Now if we go back to Eidetic's post #18 on this thread there is a stain at the edge of the trunk liner on the side where Caylee's head would have been (above the shoulder in your and JWG's images) and part of it has been sliced out by investigators. IMOO this stain is another relic of Caylee's being in the trunk and perhaps being dragged out in a manner (bags with unsealed tops for example) that caused a leak/stain in that area.

Could forensics differentiate between a stain that had seeped in for days (shoulder/hip/foot) and one that had been more recently deposited (spill from top of bags as they were dragged out of trunk)? Is this why the long narrow strip was cut from the trunk liner--to capture both in one test piece?

ynotdivein said:

Quote respect BJB. Now if we go back to Eidetic's post #18 on this thread there is a stain at the edge of the trunk liner on the side where Caylee's head would have been (above the shoulder in your and JWG's images) and part of it has been sliced out by investigators. IMOO this stain is another relic of Caylee's being in the trunk and perhaps being dragged out in a manner (bags with unsealed tops for example) that caused a leak/stain in that area.

Could forensics differentiate between a stain that had seeped in for days (shoulder/hip/foot) and one that had been more recently deposited (spill from top of bags as they were dragged out of trunk)? Is this why the long narrow strip was cut from the trunk liner--to capture both in one test piece?

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Interesting thought, Ynot (I couldn't resist). I could only hazard a guess as to the ability to differentiate one from the other. I expected the plastic bags to breach from being dissolved in places due to exposure to the chloroform of decomp vs. a "spill", but, IKWYM. Adding - as some have already pointed out - that all of the bags could've come into play just minutes prior to disposal too.

ETA: Perhaps the depth of the stain into the backing would be one indication. The pressure and time of the first stain vs. the second in your example might result in the fluid being 'deeper' in the backing IYKWIM. It might also depend on when the laundry bag came into play. We've debated whether the laundry bag was inside or outside the plastic bags...not wishing to start that debate up again here...but I would think the laundry bag would've had an effect of dissipating the stain vs. a distinct outline. Recall that the bottom of the laundry bag had lining as magic-cat pointed out above too. If that were the case it would mean the laundry bag came into play last vs. first - or all at the same time @ the time of disposal.

I had been thinking the strip was cut perhaps because it was in an area that - unsupported from underneath - sagged a bit, and therefore collected more fluid, hence being a target for sampling.

ETA: The 2nd pic in your post#341 kinda suggests the slight curvature of the panel, w/ some staining @ the very edge where the samples where cut. No staining on either side of the cutaway...so...who knows.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4977566&postcount=341"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2010.02.16 Doc Dump: Stain on Trunk Liner[/ame]

All just guesses.

gamom said:

I wonder if the state will be allowed to see the stain with the red outline that was posted in that last picture? To me, that had a huge impact. So much so, that I am logging off for awhile after this post. I just can't believe someone could do this to their child and go out partying the next few days. So sad. I am afraid if the red outline was not there it makes it very hard to see it.

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BondJamesBond said:

Interesting thought, Ynot (I couldn't resist).

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:blowkiss:

BondJamesBond said:

Adding - as some have already pointed out - that all of the bags could've come into play just minutes prior to disposal too.

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This got me thinking, in both your image and JWG's there is a curved line coming from the left side, crossing over what would be the back in JWG's image or the arm in yours. Does anyone else see that? Could it be caused by a wrinkle in the material that Caylee was wrapped in?

BondJamesBond said:

ETA: Perhaps the depth of the stain into the backing would be one indication.

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Great observation. By that measure, the small stain at the edge of the rectangular test strip cut out looks to be as deep/old as the larger one where Caylee's body was. But then, we also have to consider what Eidetic (I think it was Eidetic) posited about the backing stains; namely, that there is a white ring around their edges because some kind of cleaning solution was poured directly on the stains on the top side, and left some kind of salt or other residue at the edges... looking at the backing, that smaller "edge stain" doesn't have the deep white ring that the larger/body-shaped stain does.

BondJamesBond said:

ETA: The 2nd pic in your post#341 kinda suggests the slight curvature of the panel, w/ some staining @ the very edge where the samples where cut. No staining on either side of the cutaway...so...who knows.

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That is why I think this is where a smaller spill occurred during the transfer of Caylee's body out of the trunk. IMO, she was placed feet first into garbage bags, then feet first into laundry bags, and laid in trunk with top/open end of both bags on the R side. When KC reached in to grab the laundry bag handles w/her right hand, a spill happened along the R side of the trunk.

BondJamesBond said:

All just guesses.

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Hypotheses, darling.

Have to add that I am SO grateful for the skills and insights everyone is bringing to this thread. The work with the graphics especially, as I personally have ZERO capability in that area. Many many thanks, all!

AZlawyer said:

I think KC must have had some understanding of the decomp process at least as of the late evening of June 16 when she and Tony watched Untraceable, which includes a scene of someone opening a car trunk and finding a decomposing body. I haven't seen the movie, though--has anyone else seen it? Is it obvious from this scene in the movie that the decomp would cause smells/other problems?

Click to expand...

I have never seen the movie but I have read the screenplay. Yes, there is a scene where a trunk is opened (pg. 34) and the body of the victim is found inside a black trash bag.

Also, I can't remember when Casey created the timer55 password but in this script the killer uses a timer (countdown) for an estimated time of death. I'm wondering if Casey got the timer idea from this movie?

I don't know how to post links but you can read the screenplay for free. Google Simply Scripts.

BondJamesBond said:

...one of them isn't necessary."

A quote I can't seem to attach to its original author, but, one that comes to mind when I find myself askew to someone like my good friend JWG, with whom I'm typically in agreement. In this case my perspective on the potential stain in the trunk outline is slightly different.

ETA: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2010.02.16 Doc Dump: Stain on Trunk Liner


In the interest of full disclosure, this is an area where I have demonstrated less than stellar abilities. The crime scene photos held all kinds of stuff in my view that it turns out... just weren't there. :bang: So...expecting just as much to be off as on - I submit to you what I'm seeing.

On the left below is the unretouched composite image that JWG so kindly pieced together & shared :thumb:. On the right is a copy of the image I have colorized to highlight what appears to me to be the outline. I have tagged some elements of the anatomy that should help you to recognize the overall positioning. Aside from adding the color and labels I have not modified the image in any way.

A description of what I'm seeing is the body in a crouching/fetal position with the points of greatest pressure (hip, shoulder, elbow & abdomen) demonstrating the most intense white (in the original). With the body laying essentially on one side with the upper torso slightly twisted such that the chest and abdomen are lying on the carpet. The torso is lying on top of what would be the left arm (mirror image) with the elbow located just behind the small of the back and the forearm passing across the abdomen and the hand(s) indistinguishable, but, positioned in what would be the lap area. The knee would be positioned over the hole in the wheel cover and the foot positioned somewhat in an on-the-toes fashion.

In this scenario the head would be resting on the section of carpet closest to the fender (not in this image as it is only of the wheel cover). IOW...the top of the image is where the shoulders would be located.

Click to expand...

Nowiseewhatyamean, Bond. :thumb:

ExpectingUnicorns said:

I am having a terribly hard time matching up the shape of the stains with this particular statement from FBI Intelligence Analyst Karen Cowan, ". . . You can make out what may be the back, bottom, and legs most clearly."

Was she seeing something entirely different? Because compared to the positions I'm led to imagine ~ the legs are not clear at all; in fact, they seem to be the least identifiable. I bet I'm just not very good at this because I can't make it match the FBI's description!!

Click to expand...

Hi EU

The ankle area up, of the calf would be least visible because of the way the muscle grows on the bone that is slightly bowed. The meatiest part is on the side of the calf slightly below the knee and the foot which also sticks out more than that bony ankle area would.
http://online.academyart.edu/spotlight_class/FSH_114/module_02/session_16.html

The rump is pretty fatty, as well as the tummy and the bottoms of her feet.
http://www.nycfootcare.com/footpad_augmentation_nyc.htm
I am not an expert, but that is what I am gathering from the latest doc dump images everyone has done such an amazing job with :twocents:
The formation of adipocere?

In my opinion, the woman from the FBI worded the email poorly and the legs are to be implied.

Harmony2 said:

it is my contention that Casey was having a hard time letting go of Caylee's remains. She wanted to keep her close... keeping her in the trunk, trying to dig to bury her in the backyard and finally placing Caylee's remains "close to home".

Click to expand...

Respectfully snipped for space by me.

I think the reason Casey had any trouble at all getting rid of Caylee, is because she didn't want anyone else to "have" her and she most certainly did not want to get caught, confronted and have to answer for the ugliness behind all the lies by anyone.

Once she felt she had a good spot for her and tossed her on Suburban, she had herself a grand old time at Tony's.

BJB -- your explanation of the stain makes the most sense to me, especially in light of the statement from FBI Intelligence Analyst Karen Cowan, ". . . You can make out what may be the back, bottom, and legs most clearly."

I believe what Karen is saying is that you can see the back, bottom and legs, but not the head. Where might her head have been lying if we are not seeing a clear image of it in the stain? Also, regarding the light haze around the stain -- are we sure it is a salt deposit? Couldn't it actually be a line of adipocre that settled at the edges as the fluid seeped into the liner?

Bond -- I wasn't reading very carefully. Now I see what you said about the image of her head "In this scenario the head would be resting on the section of carpet closest to the fender (not in this image as it is only of the wheel cover). IOW...the top of the image is where the shoulders would be located."

I really hope the State is able to produce a great image that proves to the jury Caylee's little body was in that trunk. Many thanks.

steadychick said:

BJB -- your explanation of the stain makes the most sense to me, especially in light of the statement from FBI Intelligence Analyst Karen Cowan, ". . . You can make out what may be the back, bottom, and legs most clearly."

I believe what Karen is saying is that you can see the back, bottom and legs, but not the head. Where might her head have been lying if we are not seeing a clear image of it in the stain? Also, regarding the light haze around the stain -- are we sure it is a salt deposit? Couldn't it actually be a line of adipocre that settled at the edges as the fluid seeped into the liner?

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The only place adipocere was found was on the paper towels in the trash bag. Butyric acid was the only VFA found after it was scraped from the carpet. The only other chemical found was chloroform on six portions of the liner.

This seems a reasonable moment for us all to take a trip down memory lane to revisit this (now locked) thread:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89610"]Stain in Trunk May Show Outline of Child in the fetal position. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


...for which link I tip my hat most respectfully to JBean (see her post on first page of this thread). Early posts in the older thread discussing fact of no DNA/decomp evident in trunk liner carpet samples. Are these images depression-related only? How could we end up with such obvious stains on back of liner and wheel-well cover without decomp spill in trunk? Halp!