Inconsistencies

...good reason,IMO,to think she may have been struck w. the flashlight,as there would have been no need to wear gloves if an altercation started while someone was holding the flashlight,and wasn't planning on hurting her with it, to begin with.

That's absolutely right! Most RDI's do feel it was an accident to begin with, though it is possible that the flashlight was used without gloves in the staging, and because gloves were later used, the flashlight needed to be wiped.
 
That's absolutely right! Most RDI's do feel it was an accident to begin with, though it is possible that the flashlight was used without gloves in the staging, and because gloves were later used, the flashlight needed to be wiped.

Okay, now I have changed my mind again...I believe that Patsy used the flashlight during the writing of the RN, and this is the lights that the neighbors saw coming from the Ramsey's kitchen. There wasn't a window in the WC, so they probably just turned on the lights down there, for the staging, because nobody could have seen it.
 
Okay, now I have changed my mind again...I believe that Patsy used the flashlight during the writing of the RN, and this is the lights that the neighbors saw coming from the Ramsey's kitchen. There wasn't a window in the WC, so they probably just turned on the lights down there, for the staging, because nobody could have seen it.

Yes, that's right. The neighbor reported seeing "strange moving lights" in the R kitchen; obviously that was someone walking with the flashlight. It was closer to the 12 midnight-1am window for her death, too, if I recall. The wineceller had no widows, but actually, neither did the hallway right outside the WC either. The windows were in the train room, but there was a chair pulled in front of a closed door, so nothing would be seen there anyway, and I think that it would be hard to see moving lights through those high windows near the ceiling anyway.
But because the RN was likely written shortly after she was killed, with possibly PR doing the writing while JR was beginning the staging, and lets face it, there are people still awake at that hour (midnight-1am) who could have seen into the kitchen and seen her writing something.
 
Yes, that's right. The neighbor reported seeing "strange moving lights" in the R kitchen; obviously that was someone walking with the flashlight. It was closer to the 12 midnight-1am window for her death, too, if I recall. The wineceller had no widows, but actually, neither did the hallway right outside the WC either. The windows were in the train room, but there was a chair pulled in front of a closed door, so nothing would be seen there anyway, and I think that it would be hard to see moving lights through those high windows near the ceiling anyway.
But because the RN was likely written shortly after she was killed, with possibly PR doing the writing while JR was beginning the staging, and lets face it, there are people still awake at that hour (midnight-1am) who could have seen into the kitchen and seen her writing something.

Yep, I believe thats exactly why she didn't turn on the kitchen light to write the note...she used the flashlight. My guess, is that she probably had to replace the batteries in it, before she could use it...and that is why they were wiped clean too. I think that she got a bit carried away with that though, because....the flashlight belonged to them..so of COURSE their prints would be on the batteries. She had no reason to wipe them clean...I think that she was just running on adrenaline, and was being overly cautious.
 
..or JR's prints could have been on it,if he used it to look at his airplane earlier that day.He appears to have been overly cautious about his evidence being on anything.
 
Interesting that we've never seen anything about whether there were prints on the brush, either the part on the garrote or the part still in the tote. Of course, IDIs could argue (and not incorrectly) that PR's prints would be expected to be on her paintbrush and that the lack of intruder prints simply indicate gloves were worn. Of course, of gloves were worn, why wipe the flashlight and batteries?

BTW, that is a VERY compelling reason for PR to deny owning the bowl and pineapple- if her son BR's prints were found on it too.
The glass and tea bag with his prints can't be really linked to the crime just because it was on the same table as the pineapple bowl. They may have been left there at different times. But the pineapple and bowl are part of the case because she ate the pineapple from that bowl- within 2 hours of her death.

an IDI could argue also that Patsy and Burke ate pineapple days ago and it was the intruder wearing gloves who took it out to bait jbr....
 
Okay, now I have changed my mind again...I believe that Patsy used the flashlight during the writing of the RN, and this is the lights that the neighbors saw coming from the Ramsey's kitchen. There wasn't a window in the WC, so they probably just turned on the lights down there, for the staging, because nobody could have seen it.

what about that scream MS heard...they say that it was heard b/c jbr screamed while being in the basement,iirc.
did the accident take place down there then?:confused:
 
..or JR's prints could have been on it,if he used it to look at his airplane earlier that day.He appears to have been overly cautious about his evidence being on anything.

JMO8778,
Interesting that. Just like JonBenet's underwear, any pair of size-6's found on her would have been consistent with her lifestyle, particularly a pageant princess. Similarly any flashlight discovered with either Patsy's or John's fingerprints would have been unremarkable, since both could cite valid reasons for recent use.


Wiping the flashlight clean, just as wiping her genital area clean and redressing her in those ludicrous size-12's tell us something does not add up here, because as per the staging neither cleaning event contributed to the staging. They actually detracted from it and set the alarm bells ringing.


Also neither the size-12's nor the flashlight suggest an intruder was involved, intuitively the opposite is highlighted.


The flashlight is not staging since it was removed from the staged crime-scene, that it was wiped clean suggests alike the potentially missing size-6's it held incriminating forensic evidence , not fingerprints, but say blood or hair fibers from JonBenet?

Another thought is that it formed part of a prior staging where it was wiped clean and left at a staged crime-scene to indicate why JonBenet had died from a head blow? Subsequent staging revised this to the kidnapping scenario so the flashlight was removed and simply relocated?


.
 
what about that scream MS heard...they say that it was heard b/c jbr screamed while being in the basement,iirc.
did the accident take place down there then?:confused:

No, I believe that it took place in JB's bathroom.
 
Can I just state for the record that I love the title of this thread "Inconsistencies"? When I first saw it I thought are you kidding me listing the non-inconsistencies would make for a shorter thread, this one will be going on for 10 years. :)
 
Yeah, good catch! I wonder though..if the first part that you wrote in blue font...where it says...Christmas Day....maybe he means that MORNING. He really wasn't specific.

This is true Ames, but I do not believe for a second that she would forget whether or not she helped JB get dressed that morning OR before they went to the Whites. She would not forget it - it would be written in her mind as one of her last memories. :blowkiss:
 
No, I believe that it took place in JB's bathroom.

..I wonder if the window there was open,at the time.I believe the type of heat they had might have a tendency to make the house feel overheated.Plus,if Patsy was becoming enraged,then she could have opened it just from that.
 
JMO8778,
Interesting that. Just like JonBenet's underwear, any pair of size-6's found on her would have been consistent with her lifestyle, particularly a pageant princess. Similarly any flashlight discovered with either Patsy's or John's fingerprints would have been unremarkable, since both could cite valid reasons for recent use.


Wiping the flashlight clean, just as wiping her genital area clean and redressing her in those ludicrous size-12's tell us something does not add up here, because as per the staging neither cleaning event contributed to the staging. They actually detracted from it and set the alarm bells ringing.


Also neither the size-12's nor the flashlight suggest an intruder was involved, intuitively the opposite is highlighted.


The flashlight is not staging since it was removed from the staged crime-scene, that it was wiped clean suggests alike the potentially missing size-6's it held incriminating forensic evidence , not fingerprints, but say blood or hair fibers from JonBenet?

Another thought is that it formed part of a prior staging where it was wiped clean and left at a staged crime-scene to indicate why JonBenet had died from a head blow? Subsequent staging revised this to the kidnapping scenario so the flashlight was removed and simply relocated?


.
good thoughts,UK. :)
 
..I wonder if the window there was open,at the time.I believe the type of heat they had might have a tendency to make the house feel overheated.Plus,if Patsy was becoming enraged,then she could have opened it just from that.

Actually, in one of JR's depositions, he mentions that the house did sometimes get too hot- he said JBR sometimes slept with her bedroom window open- and he also said that the basement window was sometimes opened because the basement got too hot also.
Those houses on 15th Street are a lot closer than you realize. It wouldn't be hard to hear a scream from next door or even across the street. The basement had a vent pipe that led right outside, that is the pipe that was tested in the basement by LE when they did their "scream test". They found that a scream COULD be heard across the street by Mrs. Stanton's house, and she herself said she always slept with her bedroom window open. Though she later recanted (twice) and moved away from Boulder because of this case, I believe she was awoken by the scream.
 
..sure,and the thing that gets me wondering is,could a scream be heard from JB's bedroom if the window was closed? someone should have checked that as well.
 
JMO8778,
Interesting that. Just like JonBenet's underwear, any pair of size-6's found on her would have been consistent with her lifestyle, particularly a pageant princess. Similarly any flashlight discovered with either Patsy's or John's fingerprints would have been unremarkable, since both could cite valid reasons for recent use.


Wiping the flashlight clean, just as wiping her genital area clean and redressing her in those ludicrous size-12's tell us something does not add up here, because as per the staging neither cleaning event contributed to the staging. They actually detracted from it and set the alarm bells ringing.


Also neither the size-12's nor the flashlight suggest an intruder was involved, intuitively the opposite is highlighted.


The flashlight is not staging since it was removed from the staged crime-scene, that it was wiped clean suggests alike the potentially missing size-6's it held incriminating forensic evidence , not fingerprints, but say blood or hair fibers from JonBenet?

Another thought is that it formed part of a prior staging where it was wiped clean and left at a staged crime-scene to indicate why JonBenet had died from a head blow? Subsequent staging revised this to the kidnapping scenario so the flashlight was removed and simply relocated?


.

Excellent points.
The there are certain things that raise a red flag to me- and have right from he beginning.
One was the wiped flashlight and batteries- why wipe it down when it belonged to you? Well at first they tried to say that it wasn't theirs, though they admitted having one just like it but they couldn't provide it.
Two was the denial of the pineapple, even going as far as denying owning the bowl (which was shown on the table at their party 3 days before). Why lie about a pineapple snack? It had nothing to do with the murder itself..but it DID fix a time of death and point to her being awake when after they returned home. For their "kidnapping gone wrong" cover up to work- they had to say she was asleep when they got home. I have never understood their point in saying this. What would they say differently if they had admitted she was awake and that yes, she had been given pineapple before bed. They could still have "found " the RN and said the same things. I still can't figure out what they felt they gained in lying about the pineapple.
The third thing was the panties. A true intruder/killer would not have changes the panties. They'd have left her nude, or bloodied.
The other thing about the panties besides their size was that EVERY other pair of JBR's panties in the house had evidence of fecal staining. Every one, except the pair she was found dead in. They were brand new. The ONLY brand-new panties found in the home. The other 6 pairs of NEW panties in the set were removed from the home by either the Rs that day when they left or by Aunt P when she raided the house.
Four- why lie about BR being awake that morning? If you are innocent, what is the big deal if LE knows he was awake or questions him? If you are guilty....well, that is the MAIN reason why you won't want him questioned about what he may have seen or heard.
 
Excellent points.
The there are certain things that raise a red flag to me- and have right from he beginning.
One was the wiped flashlight and batteries- why wipe it down when it belonged to you? Well at first they tried to say that it wasn't theirs, though they admitted having one just like it but they couldn't provide it.
Two was the denial of the pineapple, even going as far as denying owning the bowl (which was shown on the table at their party 3 days before). Why lie about a pineapple snack? It had nothing to do with the murder itself..but it DID fix a time of death and point to her being awake when after they returned home. For their "kidnapping gone wrong" cover up to work- they had to say she was asleep when they got home. I have never understood their point in saying this. What would they say differently if they had admitted she was awake and that yes, she had been given pineapple before bed. They could still have "found " the RN and said the same things. I still can't figure out what they felt they gained in lying about the pineapple.
The third thing was the panties. A true intruder/killer would not have changes the panties. They'd have left her nude, or bloodied.
The other thing about the panties besides their size was that EVERY other pair of JBR's panties in the house had evidence of fecal staining. Every one, except the pair she was found dead in. They were brand new. The ONLY brand-new panties found in the home. The other 6 pairs of NEW panties in the set were removed from the home by either the Rs that day when they left or by Aunt P when she raided the house.
Four- why lie about BR being awake that morning? If you are innocent, what is the big deal if LE knows he was awake or questions him? If you are guilty....well, that is the MAIN reason why you won't want him questioned about what he may have seen or heard.

DeeDee249,
One was the wiped flashlight and batteries- why wipe it down when it belonged to you? Well at first they tried to say that it wasn't theirs, though they admitted having one just like it but they couldn't provide it.
Well you wipe it down if it was involved in the homicide, staged or not, but when the cleaned item is not discovered at the staged crime-scene that can only mean one of two things, it was intended as part of the staged crime-scene to indicate a cause of death and/or it was the cause original head blow? Why so, no intruder needs to wipe the batteries, only the exterior!

Two was the denial of the pineapple, even going as far as denying owning the bowl (which was shown on the table at their party 3 days before). Why lie about a pineapple snack? It had nothing to do with the murder itself..but it DID fix a time of death and point to her being awake when after they returned home. For their "kidnapping gone wrong" cover up to work- they had to say she was asleep when they got home. I have never understood their point in saying this. What would they say differently if they had admitted she was awake and that yes, she had been given pineapple before bed. They could still have "found " the RN and said the same things. I still can't figure out what they felt they gained in lying about the pineapple.
Its simple, the discovery of the pinapple both inside JonBenet and in the bowl on the table rendered the Ramsey's version of events e.g. all three residents, contradictory. They had no choice but to deny ownership of the pineapple bowl, even Burke must have been told to amend his version of events to conform to this revision. Their lawyers would have told them we will worry about this if it ever goes to court.

A true intruder/killer would not have changes the panties. They'd have left her nude, or bloodied.
Which is what makes the case for a sexual assault staging backfire.

The other thing about the panties besides their size was that EVERY other pair of JBR's panties in the house had evidence of fecal staining.
So had Nedra brainwashed Patsy into thinking JonBenet being the victim of an unforseen accident must be wearing clean fresh underwear? Bear in mind the underwear lying on her bathroom floor was visibly stained, so they must have known a quick look in her panty drawer would reveal that the pageant princess possessed fecal stained underwear? Presumably the fibers discovered on the inside of JonBenet's black velvet pants worn to the White's would match samples taken from her size-6's, whereas those from the size-12's might not?

I reckon the simplest , not always correct though, explanation is that the size-12's represent a change of plan, a decision was made to revise the staging, so rather than presenting a sexual molestation gone wrong as the result of some perverted intruder, who whacked her on the head with the flashlight. Its changed to look as if JonBenet has been abducted from her bed then killed in the wine-cellar, hence her wearing the size-12's, which also act to conceal any prior injury, but just to make certain the longjohns are added, who knows JonBenet may have originally been wearing the barbie-gown, which is now removed in favor of covering up her lower regions. To back this up the story about JonBenet being placed sleeping to bed is invented.

Four- why lie about BR being awake that morning? If you are innocent, what is the big deal if LE knows he was awake or questions him? If you are guilty....well, that is the MAIN reason why you won't want him questioned about what he may have seen or heard.
Burke has to be asleep that morning otherwise he would be liable for questioning about anything he had heard when awake e.g. corroborating his parents version of events.

It looks like the person who revised the staging made the big mistake of adding the size-12's to the mix, he/she was probably thinking pragmatically, and not about the consistency of the staging, which is how most staged crime-scenes are discovered, since they tend to reflect the stagers naive model of how a crime-scene should look.

e.g. Why would an intruder bother with Wednesday panties, can you see Patsy or John thinking that one up, also since the intruder wiped JonBenet clean then she must be redressed in clean panties, cue for the size-12's to enter stage right, can you see Patsy or John thinking that one up. But wait for it the intruder also removes the remaining 6-pairs of clean size-12's, why so, when seven pairs are available at Bloomingdales? So what is happening here, imo, this is a veiled attempt to hide the possibility that JonBenet's size-6's were removed from the crime-scene because they contained forensic evidence just as the flashlight did?

I would contend that the size-12's do not have any real significance or that they are a Wednesday pair beyond their use as staging to hide a prior injury, and deflect attention away from the missing size-6's.



.
 
Of course, my questions were rhetorical. I know why they lied about the flashlight, pineapple and BR being awake.
But the panties...they are a puzzle, and I know you disagree with me but I feel they DO have a significance. I think that she was wearing a Wednesday pair that day to the White's - her OWN pair in her OWN size. I think the Rs feared that someone at the White's may have seen them, if they had helped her in the bathroom (as she was known to ask). Later on, when the description of her clothing became public- someone could have come forward to say that when THEY saw her, she was wearing something different. I don't think they were worried that her own clean (albeit stained) panties from her panty drawer had fecal staining- as they all did. I think what they were worried about was that they needed an "unbloodied" identcial pair that also said "Wednesday". The size didn't matter- to THEM. They thought it wouldn't matter to anyone else either.
 
Of course, my questions were rhetorical. I know why they lied about the flashlight, pineapple and BR being awake.
But the panties...they are a puzzle, and I know you disagree with me but I feel they DO have a significance. I think that she was wearing a Wednesday pair that day to the White's - her OWN pair in her OWN size. I think the Rs feared that someone at the White's may have seen them, if they had helped her in the bathroom (as she was known to ask). Later on, when the description of her clothing became public- someone could have come forward to say that when THEY saw her, she was wearing something different. I don't think they were worried that her own clean (albeit stained) panties from her panty drawer had fecal staining- as they all did. I think what they were worried about was that they needed an "unbloodied" identcial pair that also said "Wednesday". The size didn't matter- to THEM. They thought it wouldn't matter to anyone else either.

Hi DeeDee, ok I have a question maybe you know the answer to. I have read that JB didn't know how to read. I don't know where I read it, something about Burke helping her read the names on gifts when she was passing them out Christmas morning, I think. Anyway, do you think Patsy helped her get dressed to go to the Whites? I think Patsy has said no. But then of course there is that story of the fight about JB not wanting to wear what Patsy wanted her to wear. I know my thoughts are all over the place here. What my question is is if Jonbenet didn't know how to read and Patsy didn't help her get dressed then how did she happen to be wearing the Wednesday panties in her own size that day? If she were wearing them it means Patsy lied(imagine that) and did help her get dresed that day, or Jonbenet actually could read and picked them out and got herself dressed without Patsys help. Which do you think it is and BTW do we know for sure that she was wearing the Wednesday panites in her own size that night?
 

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