Walk a mile in Kaine's shoes...

rnmif said:

My problem is, when I look at things like the innocence Project, or people accused in other high-profile cases who were ultimately innocent, I get very uncomfortable. The statistics are appalling.

It's why I think innocent until proven guilty is such an important concept, not just because of the cost to the wrongly accused, but the cost to society, and the victim. If we were omniscient, that would be one thing, but we are mere mortals, and whether by logic or by statistical evidence, it seems conclusion bias is a significant problem in our legal justice system.

So through that lens, I'd ask what folks would have had TMH do.

To take that a step further, if TMH isn't guilty, who is? If everything we think we know about this case is a house of cards, what DO we know?

And how does that color the lens we view KH's actions through?

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But do we need to despise Kaine in order to have an open mind about Terri's innocence?

Perhaps she is not responsible for Kyron's disappearance. Yet, at the same time, whatever Kaine was shown by LE...made his actions responsible and understandable in regard to removing himself and Baby K from the situation.

I just don't think the way to defend Terri is through demonizing Kaine or Desiree.

rnmif said:

Me too. I find this so hard to understand.

It's not like they had only been together for a couple of years. How can you marry someone and know that little about them?

I am confused when KH says that he didn't know, that he was shocked, that he thought everything was fine, and then he left what was apparently minutes after LE informed him?

That kind of leap is hard for me to make heads or tails of. If I truly believed everything he seemed to believe about his marriage on June 3rd, then I would have to hear the interviews with the LS myself, and then I'd have to talk to my spouse about it. There's no way I would just assume that the person I loved and trusted had suddenly become a monster.

Kaine is a bright guy. How did he miss the Leviathan in his living room?

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I have a friend whose daughter (with 4 children no less) has just been told by her husband that he has been involved with someone else for 7 years and wants a divorce to marry this woman. The whole family is thunderstruck.

Until he made his decision, had his financial "ducks in a row"...he played his part very well.

Scott Peterson was defended by the Rochas, wasn't he? The perfect son-in-law.

Jeffrey MacDonald's in-laws stood behind him as well, until presented with compelling evidence that he killed their daughter and grandchildren.

There are many ways a trusting person can deceive himself or herself.

And, for all we know...Kaine DID hear or read the conversations between Terri and the LS. That might be the very reason he felt no further conversation could change anything.

cluciano63 said:

I've often thought about Kaine and what he is going through. I have great sympathy for him and his suffering.

I have a feeling that he wishes he was more aware and responsive to certain situations in his home, before June 4th; I know I would be thinking that way. I think the marriage and family life was extremely unstable. I'll bet he relives it all in his mind and wonders what he should have seen that he did not. I know I would be doing that.

As far as Kaine's reaction to whatever LE told him about the murder plot, I have no idea how I would react, except I know I would speak with my husband before taking off. I would listen to what he had to say, before I would file for divorce based on what a landscaper had told the police he had done. His reaction seems extreme to me, only in that he never gave Terri a chance and up to that point, he had not indicated anything other than a contented marriage.

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bbm~

Like SMM suggested, under normal circumstances it might depend on exactly what LE showed or told me. Under these circumstances, I imagine it would take somewhat less of a showing for LE to convince me. Maybe not much at all if I was well on my way already to believing my spouse had something to do with my child missing.

Putting myself in KH's shoes, I think I would have believed LE on minimal proof and even if I wasn't certain, I would not have taken any chance about getting out of the house with baby. As far as filing for divorce immediately -- again, if I was in kH's shoes and inclined to believe LE, I would have done so, as well. The only thing I might have *wanted* to have done differently is to have LE and me confront my spouse with the proof, but that wouldn't be possible under the circumstances, especially since they were planning the sting. For that same reason, KH couldn't have spoken to TH ahead of time about the allegations w/o blowing LE's plan.

I could speak to what I would have done in KH's shoes after the sting didn't work, but that would be based on my speculation about what I believe KH saw or heard from LE. As I've posted before, he was beyond done, and I think it's because what he saw or heard convinced him beyond any doubt whatsoever. jmoo

stmarysmead said:

<snip>

I just don't think the way to defend Terri is through demonizing Kaine or Desiree.

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And there's an awful lot of that going on. JMO.

I don't get the feeling anyone here despises Kaine. Questioning some actions, well, it is really all we have on this case to do. But unlike other forums, I've not seen much in the way of "bashing" Kaine or Desiree. I certainly don't ever mean to do so, but it seems that if someone has not yet decided that Terri is guilty, they are thought to be bashing others in the family.

As far as evidence they showed Kaine-I believe if they had actual evidence to show him, she would have been charged.

debs said:

In the interest of fair play and academic discussion, walk a mile in Terri's shoes. If she's innocent. Walk a mile in her shoes.

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In fair play I have...What would I do if my husband feels I guilty of hurting or kidnapping his child? Hmmm
I just shut up and hire criminal lawyer not just any criminal lawyer but the best in OR.

I will not help find Kyron at all.... oh and also I will start sexting with some guy while Kyron is missing. That make Kaine Jealous:banghead:

How am I going to get out this murder to hire to kill him? Hmmm

The truth is when I walk in Terri's shoes I feel so guilty and start wondering how heck is she is going to come out on top :banghead: Oh! I know tell where Kyron is :banghead:

I really did try to find a reason to find her a victim and I have not found one little bit of info yet to make me see her has a victim.

Just give me something to make me lean toward Terri innocent.
Just one thing:waitasec:

Bravo, stmarysmead! :woohoo: Thank you for this thread.

I think it's time to look at this in terms of logic and recognize that Terri's actions taken as a whole are not those of a loving wife and mother, or even a loyal wife and mother.

Terri knows where her son is, but Kaine does not know where Kyron is, so why do we judge him more harshly?

Terri was the last parent to see Kyron alive, and while people want to vilify Desiree and Kaine for not being there that day, the fact that Terri was there shows how much they trusted her as a parent. Yes, the responsibility may have been shoved off on her, but at the same time, she liked to put pictures of Kyron on her Facebook and talk about him to her friends as if she was a loving mother. But a real loving stepmother wouldn't resent him to the point of wanting him gone, and she wouldn't want to kill Kyron's father, for heaven's sake. So let's get real about this.

I think this a case about the betrayal of trust. I'm absolutely sure that Kaine was in total denial at the beginning and had to be convinced by the police that TH had sought to harm him with the MFH plot.

It takes years to build up trust, but only a few days to destroy it.

I had a sister-in-law who cheated with her boss for years. Her husband (my brother) found proof (a hotel receipt where she wasn't supposed to be, and gifts as well).

He "talked to his wife" - confronting her with the evidence - and she admitted being deceitful. She promised to break it off with her boss forever if my brother would never tell a soul what she did. My brother trusted her and they got back together. He promised he would never tell anyone in the family that she had cheated, and everyone thought they had a wonderful marriage.

After ten years, my brother began to think she was cheating again, but he had no one to confide in about his fears. My mother was ill and he didn't want to burden her.

The day after their youngest child turned twenty-one, his wife packed up all her stuff and left town with the boss-man, trashing the house and moving to another side of the state.

It turned out people in our family had heard rumors but gave her the benefit of the doubt. People had openly been told about her affair but chose not to believe it. Other people talked to her every day and thought they knew her but they were wrong. The divorce tore their family apart and the grown children don't talk to either parent very much anymore.

So yes, you can give people benefit of the doubt and choose to think the best, but that doesn't mean the rumors aren't true. It doesn't mean that someone isn't capable of lying and ruining a family.

And that heartbreaking thing happened to my brother's family without a murder, without a missing child - it was just an ordinary betrayal of adultery that happens every day. It happened long before text messages or even email, but it's easy to see how someone truly deceitful and selfish could use technology and networking to have affairs and ruin lives, or even plan a kidnapping or a murder.

Wow. The MFH thing? I thought it was Terri who handled it so poorly and made it public fodder, by her actions. None of that should splash back on him, IMO.

debs said:

In the interest of fair play and academic discussion, walk a mile in Terri's shoes. If she's innocent. Walk a mile in her shoes.

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Respectfully it is not the subject of the thread. We are separating Kaine out, and we have a chance to speak about him as Kyron's father, and as a victim of the kidnapping of his son as well as the alleged victim of a MFH plot.

I wouldnt walk a mile in Kaine's shoes ever. I think he has done the best he could given the hand he has been dealt, and I will continue to lurk and see if the efforts of all who want to find Kyron actually locate him.

grayjay said:

Wow. The MFH thing? I thought it was Terri who handled it so poorly and made it public fodder, by her actions. None of that should splash back on him, IMO.

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And Kaine cannot be blamed for what adult Terri chose to do with other men or gardners or whomsoever.

No one plans their own murder for hire! :angel:

And no matter how bad a husband people think Kaine was, his life is protected by the law and he has a right to protect his children.

I think Kaine believed in Terri's innocence in Kyron's disappearance because he loved her, despite some hinky happenings, like her failing polygraphs, not clearing up her timeline and who knows what else. I think when LE showed him their evidence of the MFH plot, the scales fell from his eyes, the light dawned and it all came together for him.

If I were him, I wouldn't be able to get myself and my daughter away fast enough once I saw her in that light. I would not want to engage her in conversation, since I would believe that she is full of lies.

1. Whatever LE told him sealed the deal. He may have been having doubts, but arguing with himself in his head. The argument was over when he heard and saw what LE had

2. If he remained married to her, guess who gets to pay the $350,000 and would be liable for it? I would say, no thanks.

Better yet, walk a mile in Desiree's shoes, if your'e a mother and have ever had a child to go missing... for even a few minutes. It is a horrible, scary feeling.
These parents are going through an unimaginable horror right now, not knowing where Kyron is and what he's going through... of if he's even alive. They try to hang on to hope that he is... but the dread and the fear are taking over their emotions and they know it's a possibility that he is lost to them forever.
I may not agree with everything Kaine has done, or how he's handled things... but I can still feel sorry for what he's experiencing. Same with Desiree... maybe more so because I'm a mother. You don't know what you would do or how you would react until you face it. And once you do....... you might surprise yourself.

stmarysmead said:

I certainly agree with your first paragraph.

But in regard to the second part, I think I would not criticize Kaine on this point until I knew exactly what LE told them and what supporting evidence, if any, they showed him.

If I saw emails or texts coming from my spouse's email or cellphone and information therein was so specific to our family life, there might be little else to say...and frankly, I might be so totally freaked out...I would just need to leave immediately.

In other words,something like..."Next Friday, Kaine has an appt. at the Eye Doctor's on 12th St. at 3PM...he usually drives on 75th St to get there. We once had a flat tire in that area and it's pretty deserted. Maybe you could sideswipe the car and kill him when he gets out."

I wouldn't feel there would be any thing Terri could tell me if they showed me anything like that. Or texts of my spouse in sexual poses...with accompanying verbage alluding to my death.

Wouldn't be much to talk about then. Nor, walking in Kaine's shoes, absorbing such fear and betrayal...would I expect him to do so...at such a horrific time in his life.

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BBM

Thank you starting this thread. I always find it helpful to put myself in someone else's shoes - that's what empathy is all about, after all.

I think that if the above bolded part had occurred, there would be documentary evidence related to the alleged MFHP, and TH would have been arrested for conspiracy to commit murder.

IMO, LE only had the claim of the LS (the claim of someone who apparently didn't take the alleged MFHP seriously enough to contact LE about it 6-7 months prior to June, but only revealed it after LE had contacted him, which leads me to wonder why - was it not a well-founded claim, or is the alleged MFHP *witness* not an entirely believable witness?). IDK. And then we have the statement by LE saying that the alleged MFHP did not go beyond the "verbal" stage, which I took to mean that no money had been exchanged, and/or that the LS told LE that he & TH had only *talked* (i.e. speculated, fantasized, etc.) about a so-called MFHP against KH.

I have no doubt KH was stunned when LE informed him of the alleged MFHP. I admit - I would be if I was in a similar circumstance. I think I would also want some answers - some proof, before believing & acting on such an allegation against the person I had been in a relationship with for the past 6 years.

What I wonder is: did he go to TH & ask her to explain the LS's bizarre claims? If not, why? Was he truly as blind-sided as he says he was? If so, I can't help but ponder his overall judgment & skills of perception regarding the woman he had lived with since 2004 (and subsequently married in 2007).

If his judgment & perception were so off in the preceding 6 years, perhaps, given the emotional enormity of the current situation, it's possible that his judgment & perception are not wholly accurate at present, as well?

I have no doubt KH feels as if the entire universe has been turned upside down - not to mention how Kyron must feel, if he's still alive (I hope, I hope).

However, if I'm going to walk inside KH's shoes, it would help if I knew a bit more about the person whose shoes I'm being asked to wear.

I think I know a lot about TH - albeit from KH's perspective. I know next to nothing about KH, except that his beautiful little boy is missing - and that alone breaks my heart.

BeanE said:

BBM



I certainly don't see anyone on Websleuths "despising" Kaine or "demonizing" Kaine or Desiree.

Yet, you when you referred to "posters", SMM, I thought you were referring to posters here on Websleuths. Are you talking about WS posters? Or posters elsewhere?

Can you clarify please?

Thanks.

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I think there have been a great many threads that have descended into Kaine or Desiree-bashing, even if that wasn't the original intent of the thread. Many posts have been removed by the Mods before some of us saw what was written, but they put warnings on those threads for a reason.

ETA: The Mods have been warning people that Kaine and Desiree are victims too since they have lost their child. I think it is sad that it has to be explained to someone, but apparently it does.

If we can have a thread about being on the fence and not deciding anything one way or another, then why not a pro-Kaine thread for a change?

Let me try to walk a mile in Kaine's shoes.

Things seemed like they were going pretty good in the marriage then out of the blue Terri's whole mask fell off at the exact moment I was frantically trying to find our son. I'm Kaine, I feel awful for not seeing all this stuff other people are telling me I should've noticed how dangerous Terri was. To think, Terri was nuzzling up to me at that first presser, and now I find out she may have took Kyron. Wanted me dead! How can I not believe those sexting pics? But she loved Kyron, didn't she? This is torture no matter how our marriage was falling apart. My God, why won't she tell us the truth!

This man needs some slack. His shoes are crushing my feet.

stmarysmead said:

But do we need to despise Kaine in order to have an open mind about Terri's innocence?

Perhaps she is not responsible for Kyron's disappearance. Yet, at the same time, whatever Kaine was shown by LE...made his actions responsible and understandable in regard to removing himself and Baby K from the situation.

I just don't think the way to defend Terri is through demonizing Kaine or Desiree.

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I am the first to admit I have not been here to read much. I'm a week later leaving than I'd hoped to be, my knee is being a PITA, and I'm just trying to slam things in boxes and get out of dodge ASAP.

But I.... haven't read anything that came across to me as demonizing KH. Questioning some of his actions, yes. I have to admit, there are some things about him that give me pause. Unfortunately that's about as far as I can take it.

I don't know that TMH should be defended at this point, I don't know that KH's actions were responsible, because I don't know what KH heard or saw, when he was informed, we only have his words that he had to leave the house in 15 minutes after a phone call. There isn't a damn thing LE could say to me over the phone that would have me packing up and leaving 15 minutes after talking to them. I have a good marriage with normal ups and downs, but I know my husband. I look at life and relationships as having boundaries, he might have outlier behaviors, but 99% of his behavior falls into a specific realm. Because we are involved, committed, loving, and honest, even though we may not know everything about each other, I might believe him guilty of some things, others there is just no way.

We are both somewhat introverted, more quality than quantity in the friends department. I don't have anyone in my inner circle that I couldn't vouch for, and make a very compelling case for.

I find it interesting that I always took KH to be the same.... Yet, apparently that is not so.

stmarysmead said:

I have a friend whose daughter (with 4 children no less) has just been told by her husband that he has been involved with someone else for 7 years and wants a divorce to marry this woman. The whole family is thunderstruck.

Until he made his decision, had his financial "ducks in a row"...he played his part very well.

Scott Peterson was defended by the Rochas, wasn't he? The perfect son-in-law.

Jeffrey MacDonald's in-laws stood behind him as well, until presented with compelling evidence that he killed their daughter and grandchildren.

There are many ways a trusting person can deceive himself or herself.

And, for all we know...Kaine DID hear or read the conversations between Terri and the LS. That might be the very reason he felt no further conversation could change anything.

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I'm less impressed by the relationships to further removed family members. This is a relationship between husband and wife.

I've been victimized more than once in my life. In each case there were red flags. A friend of mine had a similar situation as your friend. Interestingly his infidelity, or the potential for such, was a constant discussion on her part, a "what if". She told me once if her husband was being unfaithful, and her friend told her, she'd ditch the friend and keep her husband.

This was all her sub/unconscious way of dealing with the fact that her husband was at that time having an affair, something she couldn't consciously ignore.

She's now with a great guy. Her discussions about her relationship and marriage in general are dramatically different. She also knows he can be trusted the same way she knows her ex couldn't.

This is sort of in line with what others have said about why or why not did Kaine speak to Terri about the alleged MFH plot before leaving, etc. I'm wondering why the police didn't think of wiring Kaine up with a microphone and having him ask Terri about the MFH? I suppose they might have been concerned about safety if they actually thought she was that dangerous, but they could have placed police right outside the house listening to the live conversation and ready to go in if necessary. It just seems like they would have gotten more out of eavesdropping on a conversation between Kaine and Terri, whether she admitted to the MFH or not, rather than the landscaper and undercover cop who she could easily brush off as not even knowing who they are and then call 911 (which is exactly what she did).

debs said:

In the interest of fair play and academic discussion, walk a mile in Terri's shoes. If she's innocent. Walk a mile in her shoes.

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Fairness to Terri doesn't superede Kaine's responsibility to keep his daughter safe, imo. .

Too many parents don't heed warning signs about their significant other and kids play the price.

When you hear from the police that your significant other has been plotting to kill you and the police also say that your significant other isn't being honest about your other child's disappearance the time for discussion is over. Baby's K.'s right to a safe home trumps all other considerations.