BOESP,
A mercy killing, a last gesture of kindness to JonBenet, after her sexual molestation, her bashing about the head, finally a merciful release, a strangulation! Sounds cold , cruel and premeditated to me?
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Skull fracture question
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BOESP,
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But they were listed as mere abrasions in the autopsy report, not as contusions. Also, there iexist other autopsy pictures where these abrasions are scarcely visible.
What exactly do you mean by 'broken'?
jmo
rashomon,
Sure abrasions then, but they will be a mixture of both, they are broken at the front and at the rear of her neck, e.g. unlike the circumferential ligature mark, they suggest a collar or hands were used to strangle Jonbenet?
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correct me if I am wrong but like on our roman tub the tiled corners of that tub come to a real sharp point Actually our tub would be dangerous for a child
I can picture it in my mind- a right-angle. And yes, it would be dangerous for a child to fall against, for sure. But if it is sharp, woulmd't it break the skin? I still can't imagine it taking a piece out of a skull. Unless she had her head banged repeatedly....which is possible. It's as good a theory as any.
The little toilet bowl screws...yes, they are sharp when the covers are removed but that place is too awkward to get down there and bang a kid's head with enough force to do that damage. And without the little plastic caps, the screws would definitely cause the skin to break.
Interesting...you mean compression of the cervical spine, discs, vertebrae, etc.? Like when someone dives into shallow water and hits the top of their head. Well, we all know nothing was noted on the autopsy. It is ASSUMED the coroner would have looked.
The ME didn't mention any cervical vertebrae damage in the autopsy that I can remember. If she fell backwards, or if she was lying down already, there wouldn't be any reason that her neck should have been damaged would there? It wouldn't be like a whiplash event. And, as Albert18 said, if she'd been hit on the top of the head with the force some believe, there probably would have been some type of compression damage.
Note: the displaced piece of skull isn't on top as some believe. If you look at the skull in the autopsy it mentions the occipital bone, and shows the depression just above where the cervical spine connects to the skull. The word occipital clearly puts that depression toward the back of the head, not the top.
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but would there be compression if her head was tilted to the side,or slightly backwards? I tend to think Patsy had ahold of her shirt collar,twisting it and strangling her at the same time her head was struck,even if it was struck against an object in the bathroom.IOW,I see it as all occuring at the same time,that is IF she wasn't struck through a pillow or something to soften the blow..b/c if she was lying down when the blow was delivered,I don't think there would be compression damage either.
A child's neck is pretty supple. Even if Patsy grabbed JonBenet by the neck, or by clothing that was around the neck, I would think such an act would help support the neck.
It would depend on what actually happened whether or not there would be a neck injury. I've wondered if JonBenet was lying on the bathroom floor to be cleaned or lying on the bed to be cleaned. Either way, grabbing her head and pushing her down into the floor or back into the headboard probably wouldn't cause a neck injury.
The more we discuss this, the more it suggests the blow was low velocity/high pressure. It's the type injury Steve Thomas described in his book and it fits what we are learning about the injury from the autopsy and photos, in my opinion.
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I'm inclined to agree w/ you,esp. from the position of the wound,that indentation at the back of her head appearing to be from being pushed or shoved,or perhaps thrown into something,I just wonder what caused that.
Solace pointed out something (I think she said she had some experience w/ her son being injured by someone), and that led to her thinking that large circular type mark on the front of JB's neck was a thumb print.That sounds very logical to me.Dr Spitz says she was manually strangled by a shirt collar,so if Patsy had her collar twisted,her thumb could have been there at the time,and it could have left the mark,occurring as she was pushed or shoved into something..maybe it would take that much force to leave such a mark? I don't know.
In PMPT,it says her body was tented and a glue type substance was sprayed on to check for fingerprints..and they only found one.But I don't think it says who's or where it was.Also...why no other prints? she must have been wiped down pretty well.no intruder would have done that,he'd have been in too much of a hurry to get out of the house.
The only thing I question is the WHY of it..was it really a soiling issue that set her off,and was it really unintentional? Was JR caught molesting her and that set her off? He did try to account for his underwear fibers possibly being in JB's room in DOI (IMO),although that could have come from an incident prior to the night of the murder.I do tend to think he was molesting her.
And I also wonder if he was the one who did the ligature strangulation.I think he made the garrote and tied the knot,and did the wrist ligatures.If so,then he's just as guilty,unless he thought she was already dead? I think the vag. wound was done by him as staging,although I think it's possible she was molested prior to that as well,only no injury occurred at that time.JMO.
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A question for SD,who said he thought she was killed in her room.I'm wondering what leads you to believe that,and what caused the head injury,if it wasn't something in JB's bathroom? You have a lot of insight,thx for anything you can add.
How does John account for his underwear fibers possibly being in JB's room? I did not finish the book. It is not an easy read.
I think it would depend on the angle from which she was struck. If she was struck sideways and not from above, the neck may not have suffered any damage.
BOESP: I have a question about the low velocity/high pressure type of wound you mentioned. Suppose JonBenet was struck against a blunt object, wouldn't a lot of velocity be required to produce that horrific injury which not only punched out a piece of skull but virtually split her skull in two halves? I'm just trying to visualize what exactly 'low' velocity would mean. When I think of an enraged parent yanking JonBenet around, finally slamming her against a flat surface, I can imagine she would have hit this surface with considerable velocity. Just my layperson's speculation though - for I really don't know much about physics.
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DOI,P. 13
For the first time I am aware that I have been racing around the house in my underwear.I hurry back to the third floor bedroom to grab my clothes.I stop in JonBenet's room and look under the bed to make sure she isn't there.
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the book has several mentions of things JR is trying to account for,IMO.like when he said he checked the large walk in fridge..he's trying to account for his fresh prints being on it,IMO.it's the same thing he was doing with the window in the basement when he said he found it open and he closed it.(but didn't report it to anyone).he also mentions the binoculars,and Patsy talks about how they were worried about how their room at the Stine's might be bugged,and so if it was,all anyone could have heard was the white noise machine Susan had put in there. (yea,right).they were apparently worried someone overheard something.
I posted all these quotes on another thread recently,I'm not sure which one though.
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I don't either Rash,I'm assuming you took physics Boesp? I've taken microbiology and chemistry,and some medical related classes,so some of the things in the case make sense to me,although I wish I'd taken physics now,too.
My guess would be there possibly could be separation of the cervical vertebrae but not compression, under the condition you mention above. Based on my personal theory about the scene, I can't see her cervical spine being damaged but I'm open to other ideas, especially if new evidence is ever released.
I agree with your view about the shirt collar. I've wondered if Patsy could have fallen on JonBenet (maybe slipped on a rug, lost her balance, and so on). Maybe JonBenet fell in the bathtub??? Patsy might have momentarily lost control and even purposely slammed her head against something, but I'm not partial to that idea (it just doesn't seem in character to me). There are just many scenes that come to mind. Don't forget, too, that there was brain damage described in the autopsy that is consistent with "shaken baby syndrome."
The strangulation could have been staging or it could have been a mercy killing. Concerning the strangulation, proving intent in this case would be a problem in my opinion. I can't decide about that but something must have suggested this could be a Murder One charge since Fuhrman and Thomas talked about the "aha" moment they believed suggested Murder One. I'm not sure how you could prove Patsy (or anyone who did this) did it knowingly with malice aforethought. Maybe Colorado has some law that allows a Murder One charge because of the age of the child or other factor.
I think Solace could be right about that and the thumb print would also fit with the theory about the round abrasions being caused by Patsy's rings (although some believe they are stun gun marks).
If they fumed her body and only found one print, I'm not sure it would include/exclude much. Did you mean the naked body or the body with clothing on it?
Do you recall off the top of your head how many of John's shirt fibers were found on JonBenet? If Patsy had on the clothes she wore to the Whites, I would expect her to have some of John's fibers on her so maybe secondary transfer could account for that. I don't recall where I read about John's fibers being on JonBenet but knowing the number might help. I also looked for the underwear fiber statement the other day and I can only find John mentioning it in DOI, saying he got down on his hands and knees to look under JonBenet's bed, hoping she was hiding there.
I've wondered about John's part in the staging too. I sometimes wonder about his shirt fibers in JonBenet's panties but still think they could have been shed from Patsy. I guess it could be vice versa too -- Patsy's fibers could have shed from John except only Patsy's fibers were found UNDER the tape on her mouth.
Incredible. If I had not read it, I would not have believed it.
This is one of the reasons I have a hard time finishing it.
So what do you think, was there sexual abuse going on?