Skull fracture question

JMO8778 said:

ok thx,I wonder if there was blood in her eyes? b/c I remember when that english nanny shook the baby,his name was Matty,if anyone recalls that...there was blood in his eyes from being shaken.I don't recall seeing that anywhere in the autopsy report.
As far as the ponytails..that would require one on each side of her head,right?looking at the artist's drawing,it looks like one is on top of her head,and one right below it..more like to get her hair out of the way to apply the garrotte,IMO.

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It would seem so but I can't truly tell where the fracture is. I don't know if you've looked at JonBenet's skull from the autopsy photos, but the depression is towards the back and runs in a "linear" direction toward the front (and another one, though shorter, runs back and slightly downward). At some angles the fracture looks to be toward the top center of the cranium and in others it appears lower down toward the ear. It's also hard for me to tell for sure if the pony tails are dead-on center of the head.

I'm leary of using the drawing because we don't know who drew it or what they used for their "model." I'd rather use photos.

I've also wondered if the original pony tail wasn't the one on top of the head. I have long hair and do mine like that to keep it out of my face and out of my way while I'm sleeping. Like you, I'd also thought the bottom pony tail could be used to keep the hair out of the garotte, but why would someone care if the hair was in the garotte?

Final speculation about hair: maybe it was put on top of her head to keep it from getting wet while she was bathed????

Any ideas on why two pony tails would be needed for any of our above reasons?

Reply below in boldface:

JMO8778 said:

Ok,I see what you're saying...that a low impact strike likely wouldn't break the skin,as opposed to a high impact one that more likely would have.

Yes, that's a part of what I'm saying. Low impact (low velocity) would also probably not damage the underlying brain tissue very much. On JonBenet, there was subdural bleeding at the point of impact but relatively little brain damage is noted in the autopsy. There should be a lot of focal-point brain damage with a high-velocity injury.

this is all I could find at the moment,I don't necessarily agree,I'm sure you would know more.I copied and pasted to my outgoing mail,so I don't know the web page address,but here it is:



Unlikelihood of "Accidental" Head Blow


Expert Opinion. A review of literature in the Archives of Disease in Childhood observed:"Fractures are more likely to be caused by high force trauma, including abuse, if depressed, wider than 3 mm, multiple, stellate, crossing asuture line or of the base of the skull." 3 mm is just over 0.1 inches.JBR's fracture crossed multiple suture lines and was 1/2 inch wide in the portion of skulled "punched out" by the force of the blow.
Force of Blow. Internet poster Dave has done calculations showing the force required to punch out the piece of skull of the same size as the piece found punched out in the autopsy. His calculations suggest the force would have been considerable, ruling out an accidental fall.

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BOESP said:

Thankfully, you've apparently not been around any children who've had bloody noses nor, apparently, have you seen what it looks like when someone shakes a child who has tinged mucous coming from one or more facial orifices.

"There are no defects noted in the shirt but the upper anterior right sleeve contains a dried brown-tan stain measuring 2.5 x 1.5 inches, consistent with mucous from the nose or mouth....The nostrils are both patent and contain a small amount of tan mucous material." [autopsy, Jonbenet Ramsey, external exam section and evidence of evidence of injury section]
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BOESP,

have you seen what it looks like when someone shakes a child who has tinged mucous coming from one or more facial orifices.

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Nope, not while changing their underwear.


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rashomon said:

To all - I'd like to know the source of

- LHP's statement about the screaming in the bathroom.

- Patsy saying she had been douching JonBenet.

TIA for your help.

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Rash,

This is what I know.

Linda Hoffman wrote a book which I cannot find and she says it in the book.

As far as douching, I know of no book or article, etc. that speaks of this. I am getting it from Colorado who says it was common knowledge in the "inner circles" that there was douching going on.

I realize this is not "conclusive" and it is "hearsay", but I believe it may be true.

:crazy:

UKGuy said:

BOESP,

Nope, not while changing their underwear.


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Weren't you the person asking a few weeks ago for proof that her underwear was even changed? Maybe I have you confused with someone else or maybe you've changed your mind?

Solace said:

Rash,

This is what I know.

Linda Hoffman wrote a book which I cannot find and she says it in the book.

As far as douching, I know of no book or article, etc. that speaks of this. I am getting it from Colorado who says it was common knowledge in the "inner circles" that there was douching going on.

I realize this is not "conclusive" and it is "hearsay", but I believe it may be true.

:crazy:

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Can we talk.? I would not claim that I have truly inner circles. I think I said it was what I considered to be more common knowledge. And that is what I considered it. But how reliable is some common knowledge? And the actual word douching was not used. I have been careful to use terms of rough cleaning etc This seems to have come up and I remember vaugely remember your asking me about this when I got back from having the strokes. Let me clarify as I dont want any misunderstandings . Long before I heard of the forums I had heard talk of the cleaning and that it was rough . It was suggested could it have been from douching? This is a theory that many hold, branching off from SteveThomas I think. I was asked about this and I said well it was rather common knowledge that some really nutty things had been going on in that house; I think douching was mentioned on the forum or in a private message and I think I told (was it you or someone else that had asked me) could it have been douching that they may be more right than they thought as have it from what I consider to be a reliable source that there was some really awful things done in that rough cleaning that may have left behind or been signs of abuse. And certainly I do not disagree that its possible that went on. Fast foward to present and I feel I have posted several times and in several threads that believing it as a possibility and proving what went on behind those closed doors for sure are two different things. Now it seems that somehow I am credited with the theory that it was definitely douching. That is not my position. Id say speculation that makes some sense as a possibility at best. And I heard that I am credited on yet another forum that I do not nor have I ever posted on for months and months on as saying that this definitely happend I know it as fact and that Julie Hayden started this. I know that is not so. That is a complete untruth. I know Julie that is true And I have spoken with her but I would like to know how it is that she is credited as starting this theory? Not so.I will not say what it is she did or did not say as that is between Julie and I and the covversation we had in front of my husband and DIL as my witnesses. This is what I have said several times now. Before and after my strokes That something starts as one thing and it turns into totally something else. It seemed to do so while I was in the hospital with the strokes and I think I know how and it started on that other forum . So I am going to be as clear as possible . Do I think douching was possible , maybe yes , yes it could be possible. Proven fact NO. I sure do not want to accept responsibility for it being reported as a absolute fact and I have said this several times since I came back to realize somehow this was credited as a fact by me!! I also know people in Boulder that would swear on their lives the Ramseys are innocent and pure as the driven snow. I am not trying to discredit anyone I Just need to put strraight what it is I said and did not say once and for all. I hope this clarifies

BOESP said:

A nail with a head also makes a good "weapon" to use for the first test (high-velocity/low-pressure). The second test, holding the egg and cracking it on the counter, would be low-velocity/high-pressure. Throwing it against the wall would be high-velocity/high pressure but I don't recommend doing that.

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I will have to do the last experiment since I believe it was both high velocity and high pressure which caused this horrific wound.

jmo

I don't know what it was,as far as pressure is concerned...but she had an 8 1/2 inch fracture in her skull,and I have a very difficult time equating it to an 'accident',even one born of rage.

BOESP said:

Thankfully, you've apparently not been around any children who've had bloody noses nor, apparently, have you seen what it looks like when someone shakes a child who has tinged mucous coming from one or more facial orifices.

"There are no defects noted in the shirt but the upper anterior right sleeve contains a dried brown-tan stain measuring 2.5 x 1.5 inches, consistent with mucous from the nose or mouth....The nostrils are both patent and contain a small amount of tan mucous material." [autopsy, Jonbenet Ramsey, external exam section and evidence of evidence of injury section]
​

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JBR's head was turned to the right when she was found. And her arms were raised up over her head. It's likely she was in that position as she died, and rigor kept her that way. There was tan mucous (blood will turn brownish as it is exposed to the air- bloody mucous will look tan at some point). On the upper right sleeve is exactly where you'd expect to find the tan stain if her head was turned to the right. Any bloody mucous coming from her mouth (or nostrils) would end up there. Keep in mind, it was probably oozing, not pouring, out.
If you recall the crime scene photos, there is one I have in mind- it must have been one of the early ones taken, JBR is clothed in the white shirt, and I believe the ligature can be seen around her wrist. Her hair is a mess, she is lying on her side, her face is not shown, but one arm is seen, bent at the elbow. If her head lolled to the right, her face may have been very close to her sleeve. Don't be influenced by the DRAWING of her body. That is meant to represent how the body was found, but may not be an exact, completely accurate portrayal of the position of the head/arms. It doesn't show her wrapped in the white blanket. The drawing also shows her gold cross and chain hanging clearly, while we all know it was wrapped up in the ligature close to the neck. The drawing may represent how her body lay after JR brought her upstairs, or LA put her under the Christmas Tree (I shudder ever time that image comes to mind).

rashomon said:

I will have to do the last experiment since I believe it was both high velocity and high pressure which caused this horrific wound.

jmo

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That will be a real mess.

There was pressure at the impact point but it is unlikely that would cause a long, wide split unless a second nearly simultaneous injury occurred at or nearly at the same time, causing two fractures to join.

You might also want to try hitting a coconut with a hammer just enough to cause a depression and fracture. Then put the coconut on the counter and press down with your hand, putting your weight behind it. The fracture will widen and lengthen (or at least it should!!!) because of the relatively high pressure on the coconut (and other reasons but I'm too tired to get into that again tonight ) Then try hitting a second coconut with all your might and see what the hammer does and how it fractures. It is a rather gruesome experiment but it helps understand JonBenet's wounds.

DeeDee249 said:

....drawing may represent how her body lay after JR brought her upstairs, or LA put her under the Christmas Tree (I shudder ever time that image comes to mind).

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Thanks for the tips on that DeeDee and yes that mental image of putting her by the Christmas tree is disturbing.

JMO8778 said:

I don't know what it was,as far as pressure is concerned...but she had an 8 1/2 inch fracture in her skull,and I have a very difficult time equating it to an 'accident',even one born of rage.

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JMO8778,
I agree, JonBenet's skull fractures speak for themselves, no domestic accident can account for them, even a blow struck in anger would not produce such fractures. Also with the point of impact being near the top of her head, this makes an accident even less plausible. The evidence suggests whomever struck JonBenet intended her to die.

Eggs and coconuts do not make for good exemplars, four eggs stood vertically will take the weight of an adult comfortably, it is next to impossible to compress eggs vertically. Coconuts have holes and similar weak stress points, not to mention irregular shapes.


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UKGuy said:

JMO8778,
I agree, JonBenet's skull fractures speak for themselves, no domestic accident can account for them, even a blow struck in anger would not produce such fractures. Also with the point of impact being near the top of her head, this makes an accident even less plausible. The evidence suggests whomever struck JonBenet intended her to die.

Eggs and coconuts do not make for good exemplars, four eggs stood vertically will take the weight of an adult comfortably, it is next to impossible to compress eggs vertically. Coconuts have holes and similar weak stress points, not to mention irregular shapes.


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UKGuy, please re-look at the photo of JonBenet's skull. She was struck more to the back of the head, not near the top. The depression is at the occipital/parietal area.

I understand your comments on eggs and coconuts but that's the best I could suggest that would be available. Skulls also have suture lines, which are comparable to the "weak stress points" of the coconut. Maybe you can think of something more suitable for a home experiment.

UKGuy said:

JMO8778,
I agree, JonBenet's skull fractures speak for themselves, no domestic accident can account for them, even a blow struck in anger would not produce such fractures. Also with the point of impact being near the top of her head, this makes an accident even less plausible. The evidence suggests whomever struck JonBenet intended her to die.

Eggs and coconuts do not make for good exemplars, four eggs stood vertically will take the weight of an adult comfortably, it is next to impossible to compress eggs vertically. Coconuts have holes and similar weak stress points, not to mention irregular shapes.

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But a human skull has no perfect dome shape either. There are peaks and valleys.
The punched out-piece bone for example was near the sagittal suture, and I can imagine a blow struck on or near a suture will be more likely to dislodge a piece of bone.

Someone on the CL board posted a drawing of a skull with the sutures together with a picture of JB's skull: ++++ ATTENTION - graphic picture! ++++

Post # 1895 on this thread:
http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?p=8965481#post8965481

The impact btw was on the back of her head, not on the top. Which is one of the reasons I think the wound was inflicted in a rage, and not a calculated blow.

BOESP said:

That will be a real mess.

There was pressure at the impact point but it is unlikely that would cause a long, wide split unless a second nearly simultaneous injury occurred at or nearly at the same time, causing two fractures to join.

You might also want to try hitting a coconut with a hammer just enough to cause a depression and fracture. Then put the coconut on the counter and press down with your hand, putting your weight behind it. The fracture will widen and lengthen (or at least it should!!!) because of the relatively high pressure on the coconut (and other reasons but I'm too tired to get into that again tonight ) Then try hitting a second coconut with all your might and see what the hammer does and how it fractures. It is a rather gruesome experiment but it helps understand JonBenet's wounds.

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I'll have to wait with the egg and the coconut until my family aren't around, since they will wonder what on earth I'm doing there. ..

rashomon said:

...Someone on the CL board posted a drawing of a skull with the sutures together with a picture of JB's skull: ++++ ATTENTION - graphic picture! ++++

Post # 1895 on this thread:
http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?p=8965481#post8965481
...

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Thanks for the link, Rash. Every time I see that depression the first thing I think of is a doorknob. SPECULATION: the angle of the depression also corresponds with an upright child whose head had been pushed into a common, round-shaped doorknob from a side angle. If pushed by an enraged person, the rest of the head likely would have come in contact with the sturdy board parts of a door about the same instant. Measure 47" from the floor. The depression on JonBenet's skull just about matches door-knob height. That set-up would fit the type wound seen on JonBenet's skull (no, I won't bore you by saying that set-up is one example of a low-velocity/high-pressure wound ).

BOESP said:

UKGuy, please re-look at the photo of JonBenet's skull. She was struck more to the back of the head, not near the top. The depression is at the occipital/parietal area.

I understand your comments on eggs and coconuts but that's the best I could suggest that would be available. Skulls also have suture lines, which are comparable to the "weak stress points" of the coconut. Maybe you can think of something more suitable for a home experiment.

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BOESP,

Thanks for the correction, thats my faulty memory, i should have looked again, but I reckon my point still stands, back of the head or top, to me , suggests it was no accident.

A blow in anger would have the impact fractures at the front or sides, near her temples.

The Body Farm used deceased skulls to experiment with impact fractures, and one of the surprising results contradicted years of common sense, including experiments undertaken with eggs, cooconuts, melons, and animal skulls etc.

So I guess another paediatric skull might be the best proposal?


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UKGuy said:

... So I guess another paediatric skull might be the best proposal?

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I don't think that would work for a home experiment.

I don't recall hearing about any pediatric testing at the Body Farm. I'm not sure the public is ready to accept that.

Ames said:

So are you thinking that Patsy flew into a psycotic (is that spelled right?) rage, and maybe killed JB on purpose? Could be...but why?

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I am by no mean in the same league as Mark Furhmam. I have no doubt that he could see the subtle differences between instantaneous white hot fury all action tn thought or intent and that which was intentional. I wish he had expanded on that a bit to clarify did he think it was premeditated even for a moment or instantaneous yet quite deliberate, It could have been both, however where there was the ability to stop but absence of desire to do so. Giving into the rage but not wishing in that moment to do so, in otherwords not entirely accidental . That chills me to the very bone.

UKGuy said:

A blow in anger would have the impact fractures at the front or sides, near her temples.

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But who says it must have been a blow? If she was slammed against a hard surface, almost any angle would be possible.