GUILTY UK - Tia Sharp, 12, New Addington, London, 3 Aug 2012 #4

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opalsqueak63 said:
Hi all.

I'm new. It took 6 days to get registered and a lot has happened since then and I have read every one of your posts, but may i share some thoughts that may be useful?

I want to say first that several years ago my sister went out for a walk with her dog and never came home. After a massive search, she was found dead 8 days later. There was only Mum, Dad me and sis in our family - no other relatives left. From this experience, I would like to say:

1. The police missing the body in the loft after several searches - this makes no sense at all to me. The police came and searched our house a day after we reported sis missing, and used long thin poles with mirrors on the end with lights on which allowed them to see in dark spaces, round corners and under things. They also had super powerful torches and other kit. Our loft is like the one described in CS/SH's house, and with a thick layer of lagging. If my sister's body were in our house, they would have found it. I think that Tia's body cannot have been there when they searched the previous times.

2. If the body had been there all that time, there is no way that the smell of decomposition could have been missed when the whole family were upstairs in the house when the criminologist interviewed SH downstairs. I believe some of the family, other than SH/CS were complicit and others must have suspected.

3. A poster here several days ago said it would be unlikely that the family would be asked to identify a body after such a long time. I had to identify my sister's body after 8 days missing.

4. I think it very unlikely that a cause or time of death can now be established. If Tia's body had no defence injuries or such could no longer be detected if they did exist, they will be relying on toxicology. Alcohol will still be detectable in the body after that time, and some types of illicit and prescription drugs, if they were taken.

5. I first took an interest in Tia's case right at the beginning when I saw a tiny story at the bottom of a newspaper website. I felt something was very wrong from the beginning, so being isolated with a viral infection, I got to work finding out about this family on the web, including behaviour and information on their facebook pages and the relationships of this large extended and complicated clan.

All facebook pages were there for anyone to read the posts. Tia's was there, posts removed, but with 427 friends. I felt that there was dishonesty, because the the way that some of the family presented themselves to the media was contrary to what I knew about them on their FBs. I immediately that felt Tia had been murdered close to home and that she was not missing at all. The tea shirts, the mawkish candle parade "lighting her way home". NO. When a child is missing, for several days after, you don't eat, you don't sleep, you don't sit around smoking *advertiser censored*, you drive around, walk around, you phone everyone you know, you help the police and do everything to get info for them. You follow the police's advice re posters, media etc. If a child has been kidnapped, posters and t-shirts can freak out the kidnapper. You do only what the police tell you. You keep your head together and you focus. Ask anyone whose child has gone missing.

I don't believe that SH carried this out alone, nor, if he was involved in the death was it premeditated, on his part, to terminate Tia's life. Actually, I believe others were equally or more involved.

Finally, I have some questions that I can't find an answer to. - On the Thursday night when CS/CH was at work and Tia and SH were home, could SH have popped out for a drink and left Tia there? Could someone have called when he was out? Could some of his mates have come round? Do we know for sure that they were alone there all night?

Thank you for reading. I have many more thoughts but think I have said enough! ;) You have a great community of people here :)
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First of all, I want to say that I'm very sorry to read about the loss of your sister, I can't imagine what you and your parents went through.

Seondly, your post was so interesting - thanks for sharing the info about the police investigation and how you all acted/felt at the time. That has answered a lot of the questions I had about the fact the family were able to function so easily - buy newspapers, pop out to the shops, get their Tshirts etc printed etc. I did think that had that been my child missing, I'd have had to have been drugged up to the eyeballs just to be able to cope from hour to hour. No way would i be able to function, or even want to read a paper.
 
TheTruthWillOut said:
You're right about dogs having much better sense of smell. I think I have read on the order of 10000 times better than humans sense of smell.

I think when people hear 4 searches it sounds really bad, but when you break it down.......

1st search: Police only search Tia's room (Sat)

2nd search: Specialist search team search whole house including loft, for 2 hours. Miss body and no mention of using dogs. (Sun)3rd "search": Wasn't a search. A body recovery dog was deployed to the house.(Wed)

4th search: Described by police as a "pre-planned search". Police find body. (Fri)

IMO, a officer conducting the search on Sunday missed the body when checking the loft. When the body recovery dog went in on Wednesday it indicated which then prompted the now confused police to plan a pre-planned search on Friday.

I really do think it that simple. *IF* it turns out that the body was moved at some point, I think that would make the police looking even more incompetent with them issuing a immediate apology.
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I still feel Tia's body was not in the loft.I think the police would have looked for unusual shaped packages.They have very powerful search lights.

SH would know they would have searched the loft (I would image with his drug dealer past he has experienced the police searching the house)

If he knew the game could be up why did he not go missing as he did on the Friday the full search was scheduled.
 
graceholl said:
Forgive me if I am being stupid - who is PS?

I want to agree with you that the body wasn't there prior to its discovery. But for the life of me I can't fathom another theory that stands up against the other facts that we have. Surely if the body hadn't been there police would have made a statement along the lines of "we believe that the body may have only been put in the loft recently" rather than publicly apologising to Tia's mum for "human error"
I guess one other theory is that the poor girl was not actually dead for the duration of the week...? But again this doesn't make sense in light of what else we know.
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BIB I'm with you on the body being in the loft all along.
The fact is the police did apologise. Publically and quickly. That's rare.

And since the body was found in the loft, I have to believe it was there all along. They simply wouldn't apologise in the way they did otherwise IMO.

Mr Basu explained that the first examination of the property on receiving the report last Friday was not a full search.

He said mistakes were made on the second search two days later, which took two hours. Mr Basu said the occupiers gave their consent to this search.

"All parts of the premises were searched including the location where a body was discovered, five days later, on Friday August 10," he said.

"An early review has been conducted and it is now clear that human error delayed the discovery of the body within the house.

"We have apologised to Tia's mother that our procedures did not lead to the discovery of the body on this search."

He said a third visit took place on Wednesday......
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http://www.itv.com/news/2012-08-12/stuart-hazell-charged-with-murder-of-12-year-old-tia-sharp/
 
opalsqueak63 said:
Hi Kaos. How interesting - that had not occurred to me. I wonder if they did the same in NS house as well, and whether they need a warrant to do that....
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At the time, I wondered whether the police would be allowed to sneak in a few bugs whilst doing the dog searches. After all, weren't they done with the family outside of the house? Plenty of time to do that, whilst others are searching. Or maybe one of the "searches" was actually not a search at all, but a bug-planting session.
 
Clio said:
BIB I'm with you on the body being in the loft all along.
The fact is the police did apologise. Publically and quickly. That's rare.

And since the body was found in the loft, I have to believe it was there all along. They simply wouldn't apologise in the way they did otherwise IMO.



http://www.itv.com/news/2012-08-12/stuart-hazell-charged-with-murder-of-12-year-old-tia-sharp/
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I go along with what opalsueak63 has written reguarding the search of the loft.

The apology could be diplomatic to stop feelings erupting from the locals or that connecting lofts were not searched.
 
Skigh said:
I still feel Tia's body was not in the loft.I think the police would have looked for unusual shaped packages.They have very powerful search lights.

SH would know they would have searched the loft (I would image with his drug dealer past he has experienced the police searching the house)

If he knew the game could be up why did he not go missing as he did on the Friday the full search was scheduled.
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Like I say, if it does transpire the body was moved, it will make the police's handling of this case look even more incompetent.

There are so many barriers though for a body move. But only one "simple" mistake by a police searcher to not thoroughly search the loft.

My biggest question would be why would SH decide to move the body back to his loft after the Sunday search? And how would this be done without anyone noticing something?

I'm going with Occam's razor until such time we get more details to go on.
 
Hi guys, I'm new here......have been reading this since it started, but had to wait a while to get name and password validated: I have so many questions, so I apologise up front if I'm stating the obvious, or if it has been covered before.

1. Our first house was an ex Local Authority house, similar build year, the attics were all securely bricked off, but there have been instances of people knocking through to tap into the electric off their neighbours.

2. The gap underneath the upstairs flooring was approx 14 inches, so ample space to lift a few floor boards - could be why Tia's room was not investigated more.

3. If I was in the Police, I'd be looking for her best mates, at the age of 12 and having done one year at secondary school, this is the age when they all tittle tattle, they know right from wrong in the sexual department, and share secrets to get "bessie mates". On the downside, if her closest friends were from similar families, they will be told to keep quiet and say nothing to the Police, if her friends were from more conventional families, they too would be told to shut up, as they would be scared of repercussions.

4. As for Granny Christine - I want to give her a bit of slack, I'm not saying she is whiter than snow (as per her facebook comments), but she has made an effort to keep a regular job going, there is never a "right" time to have kids, and she may have come a cropper having Natalie at 15, which would mess up your education; your breeding age 20-25ish means you lose out on clubbing fun, or your age 30 ish career plan. I've a horrible feeling she is hiding some information, as she is scared of losing a relatioship with SH.

5. Why did biological dad (SC) not have more input? he was on his way to a family holiday in Devon when it all kicked off. Could he not have taken Tia?

6. Why was biological dad (SC) so unwelcome at Christine's house?

7. Steve Carter's mum seems the most normal from the lot, why did she never offer a couple of weeks in school holidays?

It's a totally sad to-do of new relationships putting the product of a previous fling onto the heap. I've seen it with professional friends. Poor Tia. Rather than wasting loads of money on namby pamby social workers in this country, these kids should spend a minimum of 8 weeks per year, either with another family, or at a summer school - not for catching up on education, but to teach these youngsters that they do have a worth, and how to get confidence, how to say no.

So many more questions..............
 
Skigh said:
I go along with what opalsueak63 has written reguarding the search of the loft.

The apology could be diplomatic to stop feelings erupting from the locals or that connecting lofts were not searched.
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Or to stop speculation, maybe. But I agree with you also to dissipate local emotions/rumours. Honestly I believe the statement they made was pretty black and white. The police miss a body and apologise to the mother for a week of hell. I don't think there's any deeper semantics than that.
 
Skigh said:
I still feel Tia's body was not in the loft.I think the police would have looked for unusual shaped packages.They have very powerful search lights.

SH would know they would have searched the loft (I would image with his drug dealer past he has experienced the police searching the house)

If he knew the game could be up why did he not go missing as he did on the Friday the full search was scheduled.
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I really don't think the police would subject themselves to a inquiry if they could avoid it. If there was any chance that the body might not have been there during the Sunday search they wouldn't have apologised in the way they did.

Some poor Police Search Advisor is going to get a serious rap over the knuckles for not doing his job properly imo

SH might know they would search the loft but what could he do about it? The police had their eyes on him at that point. He probably did think the game was up and couldn't believe his luck when nothing was found.
 
YidArmyRach said:
At the time, I wondered whether the police would be allowed to sneak in a few bugs whilst doing the dog searches. After all, weren't they done with the family outside of the house? Plenty of time to do that, whilst others are searching. Or maybe one of the "searches" was actually not a search at all, but a bug-planting session.
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I think it would be as well as a search rather than instead of if they did plant bugs.

It seems that by the Wednesday the police had enough information to think it a strong possibility Tia was no longer alive.
 
I can certainly think of a possible motive why the entire family may have agreed to go along with a coverup. Supposing an accident befell Tia, but one that wouldn't have happened in a more organised family. Something like her getting hold of drugs in the home and dying from those, or expecting her to cook her own meal when she lacked the skill to do so, or whatever happened injured her in such a way that the injuries could have looked like domestic abuse. Or simply been left alone in the house to come to harm.

Now we have heard from some sources (no idea how reliable) that the family was already being looked at by social services. Perhaps they knew nothing would bring back Tia, but they wanted to cover up any event that might lead to the the younger two also being taken into care.
 
Skigh said:
I think it would be as well as a search rather than instead of if they did plant bugs.

It seems that by the Wednesday the police had enough information to think it a strong possibility Tia was no longer alive.
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I think maybe earlier. No CCTV trace. Mobile phone and presumably other personal affects still in the house.

But as I've said before I think the police suspected neglect on SH's part (ie he went out to score drugs, get booze, etc) that led to an abduction from the property and were working with a missing persons inquiry to a murder investigation mid week but didn't suspect SH of the actual killing until the body was found.
 
graceholl said:
I think maybe earlier. No CCTV trace. Mobile phone and presumably other personal affects still in the house.

But as I've said before I think the police suspected neglect on SH's part (ie he went out to score drugs, get booze, etc) that led to an abduction from the property and were working with a missing persons inquiry to a murder investigation mid week but didn't suspect SH of the actual killing until the body was found.
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I think that it was more likely that the police thought they were dealing with another Shannon Matthews false kidnap case.

It is not an offence to leave a 12 year alone if SH had actually left her alone, telling the police he had just nipped to the shops /walk the dogs and come back to find her missing this is the story he would have given to the police
 
Inge Jones said:
I can certainly think of a possible motive why the entire family may have agreed to go along with a coverup. Supposing an accident befell Tia, but one that wouldn't have happened in a more organised family. Something like her getting hold of drugs in the home and dying from those, or expecting her to cook her own meal when she lacked the skill to do so, or whatever happened injured her in such a way that the injuries could have looked like domestic abuse. Or simply been left alone in the house to come to harm.

Now we have heard from some sources (no idea how reliable) that the family was already being looked at by social services. Perhaps they knew nothing would bring back Tia, but they wanted to cover up any event that might lead to the the younger two also being taken into care.
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There had already been several incidents in Tia's own home re problems with DV and drugs.I do not think it was a cover up for anything to do with social services.CS said that Tia was spending more time there because of problems at home.

Tia had in all probability been around drug use in her home her whole life.So I do not think she would accidently take them.


If she was going to experiment I would have thought it more likely to have been with her own friends
 
Skigh said:
I think that it was more likely that the police thought they were dealing with another Shannon Matthews false kidnap case.

It is not an offence to leave a 12 year alone if SH had actually left her alone, telling the police he had just nipped to the shops /walk the dogs and come back to find her missing this is the story he would have given to the police
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Yes I agree I think they (quite understandably) pursued it as a kidnap/abduction by a family member until quite a late stage. I don't think they believed this was a murder inquiry until they found the body: what I should have stated in my original post was that I think mid-week when nothing had come to fruition they must have begun to think there was some serious foul play. The whole "missing" period felt distinctly different to other high profile murder cases where the police worked almost from the get go on it being so.

Whilst it is not an offence to leave a 12 year old alone in the house, someone who was known to social services might behave very differently. Likewise someone with multiple convictions.
 
Maybe that is the answer to why the body was not discovered sooner - they simply were not looking for a body, so they didn't think to dig any deeper when they saw black binbags etc in the loft. After all who's house doesn't have (perfectly unsuspecting!) bin bags in the loft? They probably searched it on Day 1 thinking they might find a very scared little girl sitting up there but did not go out gung ho to find a body because - maybe until the day the body was found - they did not suspect for a second that they were dealing with a murder inquiry.

That quote from earlier - something about the body being found in an area previously searched - is ambiguous. It could be taken to mean the body was moved but, in keeping with the "human error" apology, it probably meant that the body was in fact seen wrapped up but deemed not worthy of closer inspection.

Perhaps the loft was filled with boxes of junk and Tia's body was rolled up, so she was knees to chest within the bag, and then stuffed into the box. Not nice to think about and sorry to be graphic but if police were searching for a child presumed alive & kidnapped would they start rooting through boxes? (I'm not saying I wouldn't as a policewoman BUT it might not be their procedure until they have good reason to believe they are dealing with a dead body).

Probably clutching at straws and thinking farfetched but I have never been so puzzled about an element of a murder inquiry before.
 
Skigh said:
There had already been several incidents in Tia's own home re problems with DV and drugs.I do not think it was a cover up for anything to do with social services.CS said that Tia was spending more time there because of problems at home.

Tia had in all probability been around drug use in her home her whole life.So I do not think she would accidently take them.


If she was going to experiment I would have thought it more likely to have been with her own friends
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BBM and probably not at age 12. I have a sister who is 12 going on 25 and I know for certain that she's not even interested in Bacardi Breezers yet. But, my family situation is very different too so I can't generalise.

In fact maybe someone like Tia would be more unlikely to experiment with drugs and drink because of the destruction she saw in her own family. And without wanting to start up rumourgate again apparently she was very aware of, and not happy with, those very problems.
 
graceholl said:
Maybe that is the answer to why the body was not discovered sooner - they simply were not looking for a body, so they didn't think to dig any deeper when they saw black binbags etc in the loft. After all who's house doesn't have (perfectly unsuspecting!) bin bags in the loft? They probably searched it on Day 1 thinking they might find a very scared little girl sitting up there but did not go out gung ho to find a body because - maybe until the day the body was found - they did not suspect for a second that they were dealing with a murder inquiry.

That quote from earlier - something about the body being found in an area previously searched - is ambiguous. It could be taken to mean the body was moved but, in keeping with the "human error" apology, it probably meant that the body was in fact seen wrapped up but deemed not worthy of closer inspection.

Perhaps the loft was filled with boxes of junk and Tia's body was rolled up, so she was knees to chest within the bag, and then stuffed into the box. Not nice to think about and sorry to be graphic but if police were searching for a child presumed alive & kidnapped would they start rooting through boxes? (I'm not saying I wouldn't as a policewoman BUT it might not be their procedure until they have good reason to believe they are dealing with a dead body).

Probably clutching at straws and thinking farfetched but I have never been so puzzled about an element of a murder inquiry before.
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I do think the police would search the loft for both a living and dead child .

Opalspeak has described from first hand knowledge what the police would do.

I certainly agree with you that this case is very perplexing.
 
Skigh said:
I do think the police would search the loft for both a living and dead child .

Opalspeak has described from first hand knowledge what the police would do.

I certainly agree with you that this case is very perplexing.
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I know, and I would have imagined that that was the case; just trying to think of any kind of reason as to how that body lay there for 8 days without being discovered, and by the sounds of it, not moved to its resting place either.
 
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