CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #2

John Burman
Fri Jul 8 2011
http://www.thespec.com/news/crime/article/560115--police-release-sketch-of-would-be-kidnapper
Police release sketch of would-be kidnapper


SUSPECT Composite sketch of a man sought by police in an attempted abduction.

Hamilton police want help to find a man who tried to force a woman into his car.

Detectives are asking people to take a good look at a composite sketch of the man wanted for the attempted abduction and call them if they recognize him

Just keeping this older news link in mind..

The image above (^^^^^) looks somewhat like the blond/reddish haired man whose pic was posted here not very long ago.

Are you referring to PK? He does have reddish hair but this guy is said to have very short dark hair. The sketch makes the suspect appear to be dark skinned, IMO.

Frightening, indeed.

Missizzy said:

Are you referring to PK? He does have reddish hair but this guy is said to have very short dark hair. The sketch makes the suspect appear to be dark skinned, IMO.

Frightening, indeed.

Click to expand...

The reddish haired guy was the composite in the Shelly Loder case.

http://www.orangeville.com/feature/article/959601--man-seen-near-mono-attack

Described as:

... male, white, 27-32 years of age, average build and approximately 5’10”. He had a round, clean-shaven face, fair complexion with reddish/orange hair that was short with a slight wave. He was wearing a dark, two-toned ski jacket and looked to be neat in appearance

Click to expand...

Missizzy said:

Are you referring to PK? He does have reddish hair but this guy is said to have very short dark hair. The sketch makes the suspect appear to be dark skinned, IMO.

Frightening, indeed.

Click to expand...

Hi Missizzy:
No, but sillybilly answered your question. That said, the whole thing is still frightening!

I did a drive by yesterday: I'd post a map but I don't know how
-there is no name on the mail box
-I came from Garden ave (40 Shellington) on Lyden Road east. When it turned into Indian Trail the first sign I saw said City of Hamilton and in full view about 40 feet down the road was a sign that said Ancaster.
-it's a very beautiful area with many newer very nice homes and the older homes are very well kept and quaint.
-I was a little surprised as I thought the barn/where DS was would be further away than it actually is.
-there is one driveway belonging to Wind Swept Farms between AG and Stenabaugh Cemetary being about 30 feet away from AG. Very close. Cemetary is right up to the road and in plain view. Well maintained, lots of flowers on grave sites.
-AG driveway is not as long as it appears in photos. I turned around in drive and could see the house front clearly. In winter with no leaves I'm not sure house would seem as private as the photos make it out to be.
-I would consider her home to be one of the more modest on the stretch. Grass was cut I didn't see any sign of gardens planted flower planters etc. didn't notice any drapes on windows, doesn't look like anyone is living there. But I guess they could be renovating inside.
-just coming into Lynden is Lynden Animal Clinic. Was wondering if that was the vet AG used?
-it took me 12 mins to go from Shellington to Lynden. A stop sign with a couple of churches, homes and a good sized play ground/village centre.
It was a lovely day for a drive.

I still can't figure out how AG could have been targeted or watched for where she lived as only one car passed on the whole stretch. Unless you knew where the road went to/from (as a local) I don't think you would use it.

Confirms my thought that this wasn't total random/stranger, although mistaken identity is still a possibility. I think AG murderer had an adgenda.

Quoted from Lily MacBloom:

I still can't figure out how AG could have been targeted or watched for where she lived as only one car passed on the whole stretch. Unless you knew where the road went to/from (as a local) I don't think you would use it.

Confirms my thought that this wasn't total random/stranger, although mistaken identity is still a possibility. I think AG murderer had an adgenda.


A few questions I have after your trip there:
- do you now think that AG and SV's killers are TWO different people?
- what kind of agenda do you think he/she had - a former student with a grudge? a disgruntled neighbour who disliked AG's dogs? etc.?
- are you ruling out an internet connection of some sort?
- what do you now think the Camaro had to do with it (because LE took the car away)?

So many questions.....

following strictly my opinion for what it's worth :truce:


A few questions I have after your trip there:
- do you now think that AG and SV's killers are TWO different people?Unless a connection can be made between the two women, i.e.: similar interests, on line bridge, nurse/patient, did AG teach SV at night school? My gut tells me SVs murderer is a younger man. Don’t know why I think this I just do.
- what kind of agenda do you think he/she had –-what I DON’T think it was, theft. (From what I’ve been told by friend)
-I think it was pure malicious hatred. Someone she had belittled and humiliated repeatedly.
(As per description given by many of her prior students, seems you either loved her or hated her
Her personality left a distinct impression on people. She may have been a recluse but she didn’t go unnoticed.
- are you ruling out an internet connection of some sort?
-nope
Having said that, I do believe AG was either pulled from the doorway to the garage, or came out to investigate a noise in the garage. Saw a car come up to the house and came out to see who it was.
I like the car coming up the lane, or pulling in at the bottom of the lane, only because this makes the most sense with leaving her dogs in the house. It’s almost like she was expecting someone, otherwise why barricade the dogs in the house? If someone unexpected pulled up you’d think you’d let the dogs out first! OR the dogs didn’t have free run of the household and were always just allowed in one room.
Question: I’m a dog lover, all of my dogs have always had free run of the household, but they’ve all been well behaved and socialized. I guess if I had two unruly shepherds that I might not have much control over I might keep them in the sunroom. Do your dogs have free run of your house?
- what do you now think the Camaro had to do with it (because LE took the car away-her body was found in the garage. Car was in garage. Police ruling in or out auto theft, looking for DNA on car? No idea.

LilyMacBloom said:

following strictly my opinion for what it's worth :truce:


A few questions I have after your trip there:
- do you now think that AG and SV's killers are TWO different people?Unless a connection can be made between the two women, i.e.: similar interests, on line bridge, nurse/patient, did AG teach SV at night school? My gut tells me SVs murderer is a younger man. Don’t know why I think this I just do.
- what kind of agenda do you think he/she had –-what I DON’T think it was, theft. (From what I’ve been told by friend)
-I think it was pure malicious hatred. Someone she had belittled and humiliated repeatedly.
(As per description given by many of her prior students, seems you either loved her or hated her
Her personality left a distinct impression on people. She may have been a recluse but she didn’t go unnoticed.
- are you ruling out an internet connection of some sort?
-nope
Having said that, I do believe AG was either pulled from the doorway to the garage, or came out to investigate a noise in the garage. Saw a car come up to the house and came out to see who it was.
I like the car coming up the lane, or pulling in at the bottom of the lane, only because this makes the most sense with leaving her dogs in the house. It’s almost like she was expecting someone, otherwise why barricade the dogs in the house? If someone unexpected pulled up you’d think you’d let the dogs out first! OR the dogs didn’t have free run of the household and were always just allowed in one room.
Question: I’m a dog lover, all of my dogs have always had free run of the household, but they’ve all been well behaved and socialized. I guess if I had two unruly shepherds that I might not have much control over I might keep them in the sunroom. Do your dogs have free run of your house?
- what do you now think the Camaro had to do with it (because LE took the car away-her body was found in the garage. Car was in garage. Police ruling in or out auto theft, looking for DNA on car? No idea.

Click to expand...

Thanks for answering the questions in detail.:tyou: So, not theft, huh? *I* was going to think of a theft gone very wrong, but perhaps not.

The explanation of the Camaro being taken by LE makes sense - I had forgotten AG's body was found in the garage area.hdear:

It's my personal opinion that pets should run freely in a home, but there are many people who believe in 'crating' large dogs. Perhaps AG was one of them, who knows?

As for a person/student who had been humiliated repeatedly - wow, this seems like an extreme way of getting back at the teacher. But, of course, in any lengthy teaching career one would run into some disturbed students.

The mystery remains....

No_Stone_Unturned said:

Thanks for answering the questions in detail.:tyou: So, not theft, huh? *I* was going to think of a theft gone very wrong, but perhaps not.

The explanation of the Camaro being taken by LE makes sense - I had forgotten AG's body was found in the garage area.hdear:

It's my personal opinion that pets should run freely in a home, but there are many people who believe in 'crating' large dogs. Perhaps AG was one of them, who knows?

As for a person/student who had been humiliated repeatedly - wow, this seems like an extreme way of getting back at the teacher. But, of course, in any lengthy teaching career one would run into some disturbed students.

The mystery remains....

Click to expand...

I've been thinking about this a lot and the one thing that does stand out to me is the dogs. It was said that she would put the dogs in another room when someone came over, this sounds like she knew who she let in the house as the dogs were put in another room. Does this make sense?

It makes perfect sense to me defense101. I think she knew her attacker and locked the dogs up because she was expecting someone. I wonder how many pee and poop spots there were in the room the dogs were found in? That would give an idea how long they had been in there and also maybe when Ms Gleave was attacked. MOO.

Yes, that makes sense. So - either AG KNEW her killer (hence, placing the dogs in another room) OR AG had already placed them in 'their room' for the night and the killer grabbed AG as she was locking up, taking garbage out, etc.

Did that make any sense?

And also, the dogs were left unharmed - that has been troubling me. If someone was sick enough to brutalise AG, I'd think that harming the dogs would be a non-big-deal. :twocents:

ETA: So assuming AG KNEW her attacker, it should be easy to find this person. AG was reclusive, rarely/never let people into the house (they visited on AG's bench outside), had a coffee group, golfed, and loved animals. That's a pretty small number of contacts, isn't it? Oh, and the handyman and a few neighbours to whom AG e-mailed.

No_Stone_Unturned said:

Yes, that makes sense. So - either AG KNEW her killer (hence, placing the dogs in another room) OR AG had already placed them in 'their room' for the night and the killer grabbed AG as she was locking up, taking garbage out, etc.

Did that make any sense?

And also, the dogs were left unharmed - that has been troubling me. If someone was sick enough to brutalise AG, I'd think that harming the dogs would be a non-big-deal. :twocents:

ETA: So assuming AG KNEW her attacker, it should be easy to find this person. AG was reclusive, rarely/never let people into the house (they visited on AG's bench outside), had a coffee group, golfed, and loved animals. That's a pretty small number of contacts, isn't it? Oh, and the handyman and a few neighbours to whom AG e-mailed.

Click to expand...

The viscous nature of the attack bespeaks a lot of anger as well which lends me to believe it was someone known to her (not always I know). The dogs being unharmed (good point) and in their room says to me it was someone known to her. Even if it was after she put the dogs in like you said, the person would have to of known her habits, this just doesn't seem like a crime of opportunity to me. IMO

I've been giving this a lot of thought myself since I did my driveby. Let me put this to the group.

AG has been single/divorced since 1976. Given her umm pref for high heels, red polish/lipstick and fast cars. My opinion is that she as well as having a high self esteem for her mind also had a good self image. Therefore, it doesn't seem unlikely that she may have had a very serious relationship with say a married man, or he could have been a single suitor many years ago. They parted ways on very ugly terms. Or, she simply scornedand belittled him.
He carried that with him over the years and by a "chance" meeting they re-gained or "caught up". Perhaps she scorned him again and he simply "snapped" and she got what he thought she had coming to her after what she had put him through????
That's what makes the most sense to me. She may have been expecting him, perhaps he has just learned of a serious health issue, therefore, he has/had nothing to lose.
Your thoughts on this? Simple as a scorned suitor from the past?????

defense101 said:

I've been thinking about this a lot and the one thing that does stand out to me is the dogs. It was said that she would put the dogs in another room when someone came over, this sounds like she knew who she let in the house as the dogs were put in another room. Does this make sense?

Click to expand...

Makes perfect sense to me, defense. However, it sounds to me like AG would have put the dogs in another room when either a friend OR a stranger came into the house. Having said that, I can't see AG letting a stranger into the house at all. That brings us back to someone she knew, OR the dogs were crated at night. I can't see a dog-lover like AG crating her dogs while she slept. Given she lived alone, was vulnerable due to age, arthritis, etc and seemed a touch paranoid, I believe she would rely on the dogs for security at night. The only way they can provide that security is if they have the run of the house.

I have two shepherds that are people-friendly, as long as I like the people When a stranger comes to the door, I intentionally allow the dogs to be right behind me so that people know there are two big shepherds in the house. My old shepherd loved our "people" but was NOT friendly to strangers (actually quite terrifying to people who didn't know her). When I went to the door, I just made extra sure she could not get past me to the stranger. If I was satisfied the stranger posed no threat, I would step outside to speak with them.

Shepherds can appear vicious to people who aren't familiar with them. They are pretty amazing at knowing how far to push it without harming anyone. If AG's dogs were actually vicious, I guess it's possible she had zero control over them, but I find that highly unlikely that someone would have this particular breed without knowing how to have them under control.

Were the dogs really crated or locked in a room? I thought they were just inside the door to the garage... not really locked up, but not let outside either...

sillybilly said:

Makes perfect sense to me, defense. However, it sounds to me like AG would have put the dogs in another room when either a friend OR a stranger came into the house. Having said that, I can't see AG letting a stranger into the house at all. That brings us back to someone she knew, OR the dogs were crated at night. I can't see a dog-lover like AG crating her dogs while she slept. Given she lived alone, was vulnerable due to age, arthritis, etc and seemed a touch paranoid, I believe she would rely on the dogs for security at night. The only way they can provide that security is if they have the run of the house.

I have two shepherds that are people-friendly, as long as I like the people When a stranger comes to the door, I intentionally allow the dogs to be right behind me so that people know there are two big shepherds in the house. My old shepherd loved our "people" but was NOT friendly to strangers (actually quite terrifying to people who didn't know her). When I went to the door, I just made extra sure she could not get past me to the stranger. If I was satisfied the stranger posed no threat, I would step outside to speak with them.

Shepherds can appear vicious to people who aren't familiar with them. They are pretty amazing at knowing how far to push it without harming anyone. If AG's dogs were actually vicious, I guess it's possible she had zero control over them, but I find that highly unlikely that someone would have this particular breed without knowing how to have them under control.

Click to expand...

Yes, I agree unless it said somewhere which I didn't see, I can't see her putting them away at night, my parents would put theirs in a cage when they went out shopping until they learned that they could be alone without them, but other than that they had the run of the house and slept by their bed at night. I do believe the dogs are an important clue here. It doesn't seem like she had a lot of people come into her home, I'm still wondering how the person with the cake found her, I haven't read how they accessed the home and found her, was the door unlocked, did he have to break the door in? was the door already broken into?

LilyMacBloom said:

I've been giving this a lot of thought myself since I did my driveby. Let me put this to the group.

AG has been single/divorced since 1976. Given her umm pref for high heels, red polish/lipstick and fast cars. My opinion is that she as well as having a high self esteem for her mind also had a good self image. Therefore, it doesn't seem unlikely that she may have had a very serious relationship with say a married man, or he could have been a single suitor many years ago. They parted ways on very ugly terms. Or, she simply scornedand belittled him.
He carried that with him over the years and by a "chance" meeting they re-gained or "caught up". Perhaps she scorned him again and he simply "snapped" and she got what he thought she had coming to her after what she had put him through????
That's what makes the most sense to me. She may have been expecting him, perhaps he has just learned of a serious health issue, therefore, he has/had nothing to lose.
Your thoughts on this? Simple as a scorned suitor from the past?????

Click to expand...

I think this could be a possibility, it would have been someone who knew her and the attack was sexual in nature as well. I've just been reading through the 1st thread (sorry didn't realize there was a first thread before I posted) were there any reports by neighbors that she would have visitors of that kind in previous years?

sillybilly said:

Makes perfect sense to me, defense. However, it sounds to me like AG would have put the dogs in another room when either a friend OR a stranger came into the house. Having said that, I can't see AG letting a stranger into the house at all. That brings us back to someone she knew, OR the dogs were crated at night. I can't see a dog-lover like AG crating her dogs while she slept. Given she lived alone, was vulnerable due to age, arthritis, etc and seemed a touch paranoid, I believe she would rely on the dogs for security at night. The only way they can provide that security is if they have the run of the house.

I have two shepherds that are people-friendly, as long as I like the people When a stranger comes to the door, I intentionally allow the dogs to be right behind me so that people know there are two big shepherds in the house. My old shepherd loved our "people" but was NOT friendly to strangers (actually quite terrifying to people who didn't know her). When I went to the door, I just made extra sure she could not get past me to the stranger. If I was satisfied the stranger posed no threat, I would step outside to speak with them.

Shepherds can appear vicious to people who aren't familiar with them. They are pretty amazing at knowing how far to push it without harming anyone. If AG's dogs were actually vicious, I guess it's possible she had zero control over them, but I find that highly unlikely that someone would have this particular breed without knowing how to have them under control.

Click to expand...

SB: I don't disagree with you, however, as a long time dog owner of many breeds, IF you have control of your dog, you don't have to LOCK or CONFINE a dog at all!! No matter what. The fact that AG found it necessary to confine the dogs (ever) tells me she didn't have control. I don't mean this in a negative way I'm just saying. I'm very sure she loved her dogs, but they were in charge.
Not that this has anything to do with her murder, other than AG made a decision to confine the very beings that could keep her safe, I have no doubt about this.

I would have to agree here. I think the dogs were in charge in the Gleave home. One can adore their pets and still not have control over them. I believe that there was a comment at one point that Ms. Gleave had also owned other breeds but had recently had a number of shepherds. I think that was expressly for protection.

It should be remembered that even her very best friend, LV, expressed distrust and fear of the dogs. Supposedly LV visited often and you'd think that they would have "taken" to her after a period of time but it doesn't sound like it. I've never read how the handyman dealt with the dogs. Does anyone recall a statement from him? When he worked in the garden and about the house with Ms. Gleave, were the dogs left in the house--even in the summer months?

I'll go out on a limb and say that I've believed from the first few days that the killer is either:

an old friend or acquaintance who held a deep rage of a sexual fashion towards Ms. Gleave....a current spurned lover, a student, or someone from her distant past

OR

someone from the cemetery practicing "dark arts" on a very eventful night of the year


IMO, robberies gone wrong or angry neighbors who fly into a rage over barking do not brutally murder people and leave some sort of mark of sexual assault or mutilation.