17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #27

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gxm said:
IMO, if the forensic evidence backs up GZ's story there will be no wiggle room for reasonable doubt. His story will be a factually-consistent possibility and will leave prosecution with very little to discredit it with. OTOH, if the forensics do not back up GZ's version of events, then his story will begin to look incomplete at best, fabricated at worst and the jurors will be free to disbelieve. It is for this reason, if his case makes it to trial, that we'll see another herculean clash of the chemists (i.e., experts) like that other well-known Florida case.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
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Please, please, could I have dibs on Dr. Vass this time??? :woohoo:
JMO
 
m00c0w said:
If my friend had bounties on his head placed by violent extremists, I'm not sure I'd be too quick to publicly step up to his defense either.

JMO
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that would make me step up all the more (so long as I agreed with him/her of course) with everyone against my friend, he/she would need all the support they could get.
 
songline said:
Linask no my friend did not stumble, he fell hit his head rubbed his head and proceeded to play.
at night my GF (his wife) noticed he was sluggish or something. She insisted.
There was no sign that made her worry. She heard hit in the head and that is all she needed to really know. That night he was gone. Not much different from Natasha.

But I do not know what GZ was thinking when he did not go to ER. I really have no idea, just maybe it was too much stress that day - but I do not know. I do know that if someone hit me in the head I would be worried.
So his brother 's worry's bout diapers is no cause for ridicule.
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Not ridicule, but your friend at least exhibited sluggishness, George has had no symptoms whatsoever, let alone paralysis requiring diapers. That is only what his brother- who was not a witness is saying. I think he's making it up.
 
gitana1 said:
Yeah, I was being a tiny bit facetious. Of course the "thought he had a gun" scenario would change things. But in none of the accounts about this incident do we find Zimmerman believing Trayvon was going to use a weapon on him at the time he shot him. Yes, he mentioned the "waistband" thing at the beginning but his reasoning for shooting Trayvon was because he was being assaulted, not because someone threatened to put a cap in him.

Thus, if he had no reason to believe Trayvon was going to use a weapon, he would really need to show some evidence of real injuries to have shot at self defense since he was the only one with the weapon.

Otherwise, what do we have? A scenario where an armed man is standing there, not being injured, but has "reasonable" fear of imminent danger of bodily harm or death? That's not gonna' fly. He could not get an affirmative defense instruction, IMO, without injuries or a reasonable belief that Trayvon was armed and was going to use that weapon on him.
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Got it. Of course. Thanks for the very clear explanation.

ETA to m00c0w: I believe gitana was speaking in practical terms, not addressing the letter of the law. If you are armed with a gun and you shoot an unarmed teenager, it's hard to believe you were reasonably in fear for your life unless you have visible injuries from being struck. Merely claiming the teen said, "I'm going to hit you" isn't enough--again in practical terms and assuming you are the one with the gun--unless he actually does so. Even if the teen said, "I'm going to kill you", you knew you had him outgunned, so how were you in fear for your life?
 
gitana1 said:
That statement reeks of Frank Taafe and he's been ALL over the media.
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--i don't know---taaffe LOVES to be in the spotlight, BY name..

--i'm thinking the neighbours that recently came out claiming to have seen the bandages on his head and nose...that usually 'talked to george "morning noon and night" so were also able to identify george's screams on the 911 tape.
 
saguaro said:
Yeah, well, he did that to himself...from what I've read here.

:banghead:
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This picture you posted response to is a photo enhancement ..I actually watched that person (technician) beside Gary Tuchman go thru all the colors and manipulations to get that picture..
If that is a true rendering of his injury..it is far too high or too close to top of his head to indicate pummelling into concret/sidewalk..infact it could have been from a tree branch or a slip and fall into something (it was on grass and wet from raining).
What I truly wish to hear and see is the EMT report and pictures if taken that night. I also noticed NO bandaging in place? Why no bandage? maybe because it wasnt bleeding or maybe because george took it off or maybe it was a superficial scrape..requiring maybe polysporin ointment to protect from infection.. Who knows??
 
gxm said:
First my condolence for your injuries and attack. I hope you are recovered and well.

I went through a similar attack to the one GZ describes and I did not bleed all over the place. My attacker focused on my head and face, surprising me from behind, throwing a punch as I turned, sending me to my knees and repeatedly punching me in the face and once I was laid out, slamming the back of my head into the floor again and again. I did not bleed profusely. I do not recall injuries or bruising to anywhere other than my head and face. The painful lumps on my scalp were not visible as I had long hair. The bruising and swelling on my face was severe, the bruising lasted for what seemed like forever and my left eye socket was sensitive for years. I was able to walk and, although I was an emotional wreck, I became very quiet and withdrawn which may have been perceived as "calm as a cucumber" but I was nothing near calm on the inside.

IMO, I would like to know what GZ looked like the morning after as I believe that's when the bruising would really start to show. We've heard some statements from neighbors that he was wearing bandages and his nose appeared swollen, but I wonder how good a look they got of him. IOW, I don't feel that the statements, as they stand, tell us a whole lot.

I've found GZ's account to be believable and I think his demeanor can be attributed to shock. However, I doubt he was beaten as badly as you or I. Still, I understand the overwhelming fear that your skull won't be able to withstand another blow which IMO makes a "reasonable" self defense claim. I put the word reasonable in scare quotes because I don't personally find it reasonable but I can understand why other people, and the law, would.

ETA: I feel you on the personal experience. Whether or not GZ is to be believed, this case has really brought back some bad memories that I've had to revisit and rethink. And it's added a level of emotional connection I can't shake. Totally OT but I just wanted to say I'm with you on that!

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
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WOW! Sorry you had that experience ((( HUG ))) Thanks for sharing your voice of EXPERIENCE
So others can see and view from a position of knowing this kind of a possibility. In this case it is totally believable probability.
I understand how this could have happening and mushroomed out of control.
 
Nova said:
Got it. Of course. Thanks for the very clear explanation.

ETA to m00c0w: I believe gitana was speaking in practical terms, not addressing the letter of the law. If you are armed with a gun and you shoot an unarmed teenager, it's hard to believe you were reasonably in fear for your life unless you have visible injuries from being struck. Merely claiming the teen said, "I'm going to hit you" isn't enough--again in practical terms and assuming you are the one with the gun--unless he actually does so. Even if the teen said, "I'm going to kill you", you knew you had him outgunned, so how were you in fear for your life?
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Right. Stand your ground of course does not state you must have injuries to claim it. (Which I did not say). But I believe that if it is a situation like we have here, with one person armed and the other unarmed, and the armed person shooting and killing the unarmed person and then asserting the defense stating NOT that the unarmed person had a weapon or indicated he was going to use a weapon, but instead, that he was being pummeled, and became in fear of his life, he's going to need to show injuries to have a shot at the defense.
 
m00c0w said:
If my friend had bounties on his head placed by violent extremists, I'm not sure I'd be too quick to publicly step up to his defense either.

JMO
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Don't think you'd be much of a friend then.. IMHO.
 
deelytful1 said:
Don't think you'd be much of a friend then.. IMHO.
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Seriously?

So with all that was going on (marches, bounties, t-shirts, civil rights leaders, store ransacking, etc...) you would risk your life just to let the public know there are photos of the injuries?
What good would it do?

Is that the measure of a friend?
Risking your life for info that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things anyway?

Who cares what the public has? As long as the authorities have the photos.

JMO
 
I wouldn't hold it against anybody if they don't want to make any "my friend would never" statements in public if they weren't there and didn't witness it. There are so many examples of loyal friends saying so and being completely wrong to make me doubt that it's possible to ever know for sure what another person is capable of.
 
Nova said:
Got it. Of course. Thanks for the very clear explanation.

ETA to m00c0w: I believe gitana was speaking in practical terms, not addressing the letter of the law. If you are armed with a gun and you shoot an unarmed teenager, it's hard to believe you were reasonably in fear for your life unless you have visible injuries from being struck. Merely claiming the teen said, "I'm going to hit you" isn't enough--again in practical terms and assuming you are the one with the gun--unless he actually does so. Even if the teen said, "I'm going to kill you", you knew you had him outgunned, so how were you in fear for your life?
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Just speculation, not sure, because I do not like guns, but I am a City
girl not in the country.
I assume if someone was coming at me I would think no differently
then if I had to grab a Knife. IF I HAVE TO SAVE MY LIFE that is what I would be thinking.
"It is him or me." If you are jumped you are taken off guard from the start.
 
gitana1 said:
Read the article carefully. I saw nothing that stated the friend actually saw the photos. I'm guessing it's Taafe, running his mouth again.
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Now that makes much better sense. There aren't any photos because there were no injuries. I can't wait to see Taaffe on the witness stand with all of his George wanted me to tell you this, wanted to set the record straight, etc.



~jmo~
 
Elley Mae said:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ws-article-1.1063745?localLinksEnabled=falseA friend of Zimmerman’s told the Daily News that Zimmerman has graphic photos he took of his own face showing serious injuries.

I guess there are pictures.

You (the media) are going to feel pretty stupid when you see them,” he said. “Soon enough everyone will see the damage this kid did to his head. A lot of people are going to have egg on their faces.
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Which friend was that? Taaffe or Oliver?
 
You can't tell me if Zimmerman had legitimate injuries and photographic evidence or medical documentation, that O'Mara wouldn't be screaming from the rooftops. He would do whatever was necessary to move this case forward as quickly as possible in hopes of getting to the point where the judge would hear his plea for SYG. No way do I buy that there were injuries.


~jmo~
 
Kimberlyd125 said:
Seriously?

So with all that was going on (marches, bounties, t-shirts, civil rights leaders, store ransacking, etc...) you would risk your life just to let the public know there are photos of the injuries?
What good would it do?

Is that the measure of a friend?
Risking your life for info that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things anyway?

Who cares what the public has? As long as the authorities have the photos.

JMO
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I am not sure that the authorities have been supplied with these photos.

The friend says that Zimmerman took them, (not the police, not the medical personnel), thinking they might come back for him. This implies to me that he's been keeping them as some kind of get out of jail free card, not sent them to the police. Then the friend says that once the judge sees them the case will be dismissed. If the photos are such irrefutable evidence that GZ was in mortal danger and they're already in evidence why would there be charges?

Moo and I could be wrong.
 
magnolia said:
Have you ever heard of anyone jumping towards a person that had a gun pointed at them? That is not a normal reaction. People freeze when someone is pointing a gun at them. IMO
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I hate to use this word, but, you are absolutely right and it seems as though all of the breath in you is sucked out by the barrel of the gun. I was robbed in daylight, gun pointed right at my face. I had PTSD for a long time after that.
 
LinasK said:
Not ridicule, but your friend at least exhibited sluggishness, George has had no symptoms whatsoever, let alone paralysis requiring diapers. That is only what his brother- who was not a witness is saying. I think he's making it up.
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By the time GZ got home he must have taken a shower.
He probably had not felt his own body for hours he must have been numb/shock/crystallized
I think only late that night did he have a real sense of how hard he was hit.
 
songline said:
WOW! Sorry you had that experience ((( HUG ))) Thanks for sharing your voice of EXPERIENCE
So others can see and view from a position of knowing this kind of a possibility. In this case it is totally believable probability.
I understand how this could have happening and mushroomed out of control.
Click to expand...

I too understand why you have some sort of empathy for the story spin of head injuries..truly I do..However the Injuries you described a typical sport blunt force trauma injury..which should have been investigated immediately or shortly thereafter..and 24 hour constant monitoring of congnitive behaviors ..waking up every hour to make sure he knew where he was etc....Sluggish mental behavior is one of the Primary Symptoms on that "Head Injury Rountine Sheet" handed out to ALL patients with suspected injuries like this...the next biggy is vomiting..especially with children.. This is one great reason for so much efforts in perfecting helmets..to protect the head from such injuries..

But George's Injuries have been embellished..and obviously he felt fine the next day to go to his workplace and resign or take a leave of abscence..pack up his belongngs and move out of where he was living..so Ihave grave doubts to the true nature of his claims..

This link may help and maybe can share for those who do not wish to go to Doctor or ER's..It could save a life with afore knowledge of what to look for..

Head Injury Discharge Advice.

http://www.impactednurse.com/?p=1685

My sympathy go out to you and anyone else for such real life experiences :blowkiss:
 
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